Tips

[leaveitallbehind]

6 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I think we could fill a couple of pages with all the legally mandated surcharges from lumber to CRV.  It seems the big difference here is legally required....

What a State! 🤪

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, MacMadame said:

 

It's a service charge. Technically. Does NCL not call it that?

 

I'm in full agreement.  I didn't know what they call it except for @leaveitallbehind's clarification in post #25

[MacMadame]

2 hours ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Yes, it is a service charge - that is the language they use.  My guess is that makes it mandatory and avoids non-payment of these amounts if the were called gratuities.  

 

Maybe this is the way of the cruise industry....

I don't think it's confined to the cruise industry. It's some US legal thing. Tips are voluntary and have to go to the employee(s) while service charges are mandatory and don't have to go to the employee(s).

[K32682]

20 hours ago, SoloAlaska said:

More and more places now have mandatory gratuities. A lot of restaurants if youre more than 8 it’s mandatory 18-20%. It’s still a gratuity however.

 

In the UK and Europe a "service charge" of 12.5 to 15% is quite common on all restaurant bills regardless of the size of the party. You can tip more if the service was exemplary or dispute the charge if the service was substandard. I like the practice because it relieves me of having to calculate the amount of the gratuity in accordance to local norms. The only downside is the risk of wildly over-tipping because you didn't notice the service charge on the bill. Been there, done that.   

[leaveitallbehind]

13 hours ago, MacMadame said:

I don't think it's confined to the cruise industry. It's some US legal thing. Tips are voluntary and have to go to the employee(s) while service charges are mandatory and don't have to go to the employee(s).

Not sure from where you are determining "it's some US legal thing"? But even so, I think your assumption may not be correct, as with the exception of Pride of America, NCL ships are of Bahamas registry and would not be subject to US guidelines regarding crew compensation. 

 

From the NCL website:

 

Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

 

I'm going to take them at their word and believe that calling this a mandatory service charge assures that it is paid whereas, as mentioned before, if it is called a gratuity it becomes optional and may not be paid. IMO this also mitigates the international debates regarding gratuities and fixes those amounts as part of the cruise fare as a supplemental service charge.

 

This is also not a debate on who gets how much, as with the standard gratuities program I'm not sure we know that either.  It just seems to me to be NCL's method of assuring something is indeed paid.

Edited February 20 by leaveitallbehind

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

In the UK and Europe a "service charge" of 12.5 to 15% is quite common on all restaurant bills regardless of the size of the party. You can tip more if the service was exemplary or dispute the charge if the service was substandard. I like the practice because it relieves me of having to calculate the amount of the gratuity in accordance to local norms. The only downside is the risk of wildly over-tipping because you didn't notice the service charge on the bill. Been there, done that.   

 

Kind of scratching my head here.   My UK friends commonly argue that tips are not needed in the UK because a living wage is paid.  Here you are describing that in the UK  a "service charge" is common that may be removed for subjective reasons.  Sounds much like a gratuity to me.  I wonder do these service charges go to the employee or are they part of the restaurant's revenues.    

 

[MacMadame]

11 hours ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Not sure from where you are determining "it's some US legal thing"? But even so, I think your assumption may not be correct, as with the exception of Pride of America, NCL ships are of Bahamas registry and would not be subject to US guidelines regarding crew compensation

If the corporation is in the US (and Princess, Carnival and a few others are), that's where all the money is processed.

 

If you google this, all the language saying that tips/gratuity are optional and service charges are not all comes from US-based law sites and US-based lawyers.

 

11 hours ago, leaveitallbehind said:

I'm going to take them at their word and believe that calling this a mandatory service charge assures that it is paid whereas, as mentioned before, if it is called a gratuity it becomes optional and may not be paid.

 

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying a gratuity is optional *for you to give*. It's not optional to pay it out to staff.

Edited February 21 by MacMadame

[leaveitallbehind]

31 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

I am saying a gratuity is optional *for you to give*. 

I am saying that as well.  If it is called a service charge then the passenger is obligated to pay it to NCL.  Calling it a gratuity provides the passenger the option not to pay it to NCL.  Calling it a service charge assures NCL that the money is indeed paid by the passenger. 

 

Further, NCL's own statement indicates that this service charge is a component of the applicable staffs compensation.

 

Edited February 21 by leaveitallbehind

[MacMadame]

5 hours ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Further, NCL's own statement indicates that this service charge is a component of the applicable staffs compensation.

So does Princess though their statement also mentions the "Crew Appreciation" as being given to crew.

[John Bull]

20 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

In the UK and Europe a "service charge" of 12.5 to 15% is quite common on all restaurant bills regardless of the size of the party. You can tip more if the service was exemplary or dispute the charge if the service was substandard. I like the practice because it relieves me of having to calculate the amount of the gratuity in accordance to local norms. The only downside is the risk of wildly over-tipping because you didn't notice the service charge on the bill. Been there, done that.   

 

9 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Kind of scratching my head here.   My UK friends commonly argue that tips are not needed in the UK because a living wage is paid.  Here you are describing that in the UK  a "service charge" is common that may be removed for subjective reasons.  Sounds much like a gratuity to me.  I wonder do these service charges go to the employee or are they part of the restaurant's revenues.    

 

 

Yes, a service charge is quite common in UK restaurants - in tourist areas such as central London, hence K32682 believing that it's widespread. 

But it's far, far less common in the provinces and away from tourist cities. We eat out quite regularly and I can't recall the last time we were faced with a service charge, altho' occasionally I see it on menus for groups of 8 or more.
 

As UK friends of Idubs said, tips are not needed because the law mandates minimum wages, I'm fairly sure the same applies in the EU. So whereas in the US tips provide servers with their bread, in the UK tips are the jelly that goes on the bread and have to be earned.

We usually leave a tip - £5 per couple, perhaps £10 for an exceptional evening, but zilch for sub-standard. But that's a personal decision - some tip more, some don't tip at all as a matter of principle.

Also by law, tips/gratuities go to the staff - and cannot be counted as part of their wages (a law case from some years ago). I don't know whether the same applies to "service charges".

 

A law requiring that priced menus had to be displayed outside a restaurant was repealed a couple of decades ago.

But by law prices, plus any service charges and their percentage, must be prominently displayed - usually on the menu - so that the customer can be aware of them before they order.

 

The law on whether a customer can refuse to pay a service charge is a bit of a grey area. Yes, certainly if it wasn't clearly displayed before ordering, eg buried in small print. And yes, if the standard was below that which could reasonably be expected of a restaurant eg slow or incompetent.

I vaguely recall refusing to pay a service charge & walking away from a restaurant in Budapest - I paid the base bill in cash just to be on the safe side.😏

 

JB 🙂

 

 

 

 

[K32682]

11 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Kind of scratching my head here.   My UK friends commonly argue that tips are not needed in the UK because a living wage is paid.  Here you are describing that in the UK  a "service charge" is common that may be removed for subjective reasons.  Sounds much like a gratuity to me.  I wonder do these service charges go to the employee or are they part of the restaurant's revenues.    

 

 

Tips may not be needed in the UK but with the exception of pubs they are often expected. 

 

https://www.protaxaccountant.co.uk/post/vat-on-service-charge#:

[K32682]

4 minutes ago, John Bull said:

Yes, a service charge is quite common in UK restaurants - in tourist areas such as central London, hence K32682 believing that it's widespread. 

 

Hadn't thought of Sheffield, Norwich and Manchester as "tourist areas" but all are places within the last couple of years where I've noted service charges on restaurant meals. 

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, John Bull said:

 

 

Yes, a service charge is quite common in UK restaurants - in tourist areas such as central London, hence K32682 believing that it's widespread. 

But it's far, far less common in the provinces and away from tourist cities. We eat out quite regularly and I can't recall the last time we were faced with a service charge, altho' occasionally I see it on menus for groups of 8 or more.
 

As UK friends of Idubs said, tips are not needed because the law mandates minimum wages, I'm fairly sure the same applies in the EU. So whereas in the US tips provide servers with their bread, in the UK tips are the jelly that goes on the bread and have to be earned.

We usually leave a tip - £5 per couple, perhaps £10 for an exceptional evening, but zilch for sub-standard. But that's a personal decision - some tip more, some don't tip at all as a matter of principle.

Also by law, tips/gratuities go to the staff - and cannot be counted as part of their wages (a law case from some years ago). I don't know whether the same applies to "service charges".

 

A law requiring that priced menus had to be displayed outside a restaurant was repealed a couple of decades ago.

But by law prices, plus any service charges and their percentage, must be prominently displayed - usually on the menu - so that the customer can be aware of them before they order.

 

The law on whether a customer can refuse to pay a service charge is a bit of a grey area. Yes, certainly if it wasn't clearly displayed before ordering, eg buried in small print. And yes, if the standard was below that which could reasonably be expected of a restaurant eg slow or incompetent.

I vaguely recall refusing to pay a service charge & walking away from a restaurant in Budapest - I paid the base bill in cash just to be on the safe side.😏

 

JB 🙂

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I've had the service charge added to the bill in London restaurants.  Other than Italy, I've not had one added in other European countries.  But I have commonly been advised the bill doesn't include the service charge, with the obvious implication I should add one.

 

No matter what country or customs, I wish the menu itemized price would include everything.    

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Hadn't thought of Sheffield, Norwich and Manchester as "tourist areas" but all are places within the last couple of years where I've noted service charges on restaurant meals. 

 

I used to have a large collection of Sorby woodturning tools of Sheffield steel.  They were great tools.  I would go there for a factory tour if they offered such a thing.  

 

Oh, to keep on topic, I bought them with no service charge.  😀

[sanger727]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:12 PM, leaveitallbehind said:

First of all, as pointed out by myself and others (and as you indicate by 'free'), the NCL beverage packages are not free and have their cost buried in the base fare.  It's just effective marketing language.

 

To your other point, as one example, here is information as stated on (and copied from) the RCCL website:

 

For most sailings, beverage package gratuities of 18% are added at final checkout and not included in the initial cost. 

 

So NCL is not alone in this practice. 

 

all cruise lines charge a gratuity if you purchase the drink package. If you get the ‘free’ package; on celebrity and princess there is no additional charge. NCL is the only one I know of that adds the gratuity to a ‘free’ drink package.

[lisiamc]

On 2/21/2024 at 11:54 AM, John Bull said:

 

 

Yes, a service charge is quite common in UK restaurants - in tourist areas such as central London, hence K32682 believing that it's widespread. 

But it's far, far less common in the provinces and away from tourist cities. We eat out quite regularly and I can't recall the last time we were faced with a service charge, altho' occasionally I see it on menus for groups of 8 or more.
 

As UK friends of Idubs said, tips are not needed because the law mandates minimum wages, I'm fairly sure the same applies in the EU. So whereas in the US tips provide servers with their bread, in the UK tips are the jelly that goes on the bread and have to be earned.

We usually leave a tip - £5 per couple, perhaps £10 for an exceptional evening, but zilch for sub-standard. But that's a personal decision - some tip more, some don't tip at all as a matter of principle.

Also by law, tips/gratuities go to the staff - and cannot be counted as part of their wages (a law case from some years ago). I don't know whether the same applies to "service charges".

 

A law requiring that priced menus had to be displayed outside a restaurant was repealed a couple of decades ago.

But by law prices, plus any service charges and their percentage, must be prominently displayed - usually on the menu - so that the customer can be aware of them before they order.

 

The law on whether a customer can refuse to pay a service charge is a bit of a grey area. Yes, certainly if it wasn't clearly displayed before ordering, eg buried in small print. And yes, if the standard was below that which could reasonably be expected of a restaurant eg slow or incompetent.

I vaguely recall refusing to pay a service charge & walking away from a restaurant in Budapest - I paid the base bill in cash just to be on the safe side.😏

 

JB 🙂

 

 

 

 

One of our our favourite restaurants in Norwich (touristy-ish city, IMO) started including a built-in tip during Covid. We always get outstanding service at this restaurant, so we are happy to pay the extra charge. It’s usually a bit less than we’d pay if we were tipping cash!