Oceania Decline

[daydreamer62]

17 minutes ago, clo said:

My "wardrobe choices" are simple. Everything goes with everything. Rarely do any shopping any more. And do to the early comments, our luggage are two 22" soft-sided ones on four wheels. Transportation from planes and cruise ships is taxis. will do the same on trains, I'm sure. Oh, and I'm 76!

I'm younger than you. Early 60s , but we tend to travel for longer periods because we are coming from New Zealand and it's a very  loooong very expensive flight. I'm always less than 23kg even fully laden but that's still hefty to get on and off trains, and luggage racks aren't always convenient. As I said we are using this method of travel after our cruise ( travelling in France and to the UK) but really only to give my husband a driving free holiday for a change . But personally I don't think train travel can be compared to cruising.  It's completely different ( unless you are doing one of the luxury all inclusive journeys)

Edited March 11 by daydreamer62

[oskidunker]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Yum :).  Love truffles (white and black).  We sometimes have dinner at a restaurant in Florence where nearly every item uses truffles.  It is called Osteria della tre Panche....in case you are ever in Florence at dinner time :)/

 

Hank

For some reason, I really dont like truffles. Intead somewhere if you are lacking an enzyme, you could find them awful.  I have trie alot and not only dont like them but find they have a bad taste. Every restaurant now is on the truffle and kale craze.  

[Mareblu]

2 hours ago, oskidunker said:

For some reason, I really dont like truffles. Intead somewhere if you are lacking an enzyme, you could find them awful.  I have trie alot and not only dont like them but find they have a bad taste. Every restaurant now is on the truffle and kale craze.  

Because they are exquisite.  Italian restaurants create a special puff of magic with truffles.  

[Mareblu]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

No argument on that point.  We have done a few river cruises (Europe, Egypt and China) and enjoyed the experience.  But as long as I am able to drive, it is my preferable way to travel in Europe.  When we did a Viking River cruise from Amsterdam to Budapest (a fantastic itinerary) DW and I were not happy with only having 3 hours to explore an entire city/country (i.e. Bratislava).  When we do our driving trips we can stay where we want, when we want, as long as we want.  

 

Getting back to river cruises, see if that works to get to our favorite city in New Zealand which is Queenstown :).

 

Hank

Ahhh, fabulous, wonderful Queenstown.  Our family loves it:  scenery, golf, skiing, everything daring and adventurous.  Oh, and the food and wines.  We took our kids when they were little, and they’re still visiting Queenstown with their own families.

[Mareblu]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We do agree.  Those large bus tours might be the kind of thing we will do when they have to carry me on an off the bus because I am too old and sick to walk.  Even then, I would not be a happy traveler.  As to self-driving, we have finally run into our first roadblock which is Montenegro where they do not allow folks 75 to drive (they will likely need to change that before they become part of the EU).  In fact, we will again be in Kotor, in a few weeks, and it bugs me that I can no longer rent a car and drive in that country.  To me, an organized bus tour ranks up there with a visit to the dentist.  Driving in Europe is no more difficult than driving at home and GPS has been very helpful in saving my marriage (no longer need to rely on DW's map reading).  

 

River cruises can be fun although it is not my favorite way in Europe.  But our river cruises in Egypt and China were fantastic and got us places that would have been difficult to accomplish on land.  We are also very open to the idea of taking small group tours from companies such as Tauck.

We have done three Tauck tours:  New England (Boston return), Scottish Highlands to Edinburgh, and Venice, Florence, Rome by Frezza Rossa (Italy’s fast trains).  They were all fabulous, with expert guides and lecturers, and perfectly organised with everything (including luggage) completely taken care of.  Tauck’s pace leans to the leisurely side, so relaxing as well.  Having driven Italy ourselves many, many times over more than fifty years, we didn’t really need to do a tour, but we both absolutely loved it because we didn’t have to even think for ourselves.  I cannot recommend Tauck highly enough.

[Harters]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

When we do our driving trips we can stay where we want, when we want, as long as we want.  

Absolutely. We've done several such trips to America, rarely coming across other tourists. 

 

My job for today is to finalise our plans for a walk round the main sites in Cadiz. We'll have a nice day but it won't be even scratching the surface of the city before we have to get back on Vista.

Edited March 11 by Harters

[mamaclark]

13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We do agree.  Those large bus tours might be the kind of thing we will do when they have to carry me on an off the bus because I am too old and sick to walk.  Even then, I would not be a happy traveler.  As to self-driving, we have finally run into our first roadblock which is Montenegro where they do not allow folks 75 to drive (they will likely need to change that before they become part of the EU).  In fact, we will again be in Kotor, in a few weeks, and it bugs me that I can no longer rent a car and drive in that country.  To me, an organized bus tour ranks up there with a visit to the dentist.  Driving in Europe is no more difficult than driving at home and GPS has been very helpful in saving my marriage (no longer need to rely on DW's map reading).  

 

River cruises can be fun although it is not my favorite way in Europe.  But our river cruises in Egypt and China were fantastic and got us places that would have been difficult to accomplish on land.  We are also very open to the idea of taking small group tours from companies such as Tauck.

Hire a driver. We had one in Montenegro who took us up into the hills, scared us to death on those narrow windy roads with buses headed toward us, but nonetheless, we laughed all day. I tried to find a name for you, but alas I could not.

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, Harters said:

Absolutely. We've done several such trips to America, rarely coming across other tourists. 

 

My job for today is to finalise our plans for a walk round the main sites in Cadiz. We'll have a nice day but it won't be even scratching the surface of the city before we have to get back on Vista.

We are also on the Vista and will be in Cadiz on a Sunday (that is the 2nd time we have been there on a Sunday).  Town is pretty quiet on that day and many of the shops open pretty late (after lunch) or not at all.  DW and I enjoy just walking around the town and along the sea on the other side of the peninsula.  Depending on how good the lunches on on the Vista, we may just settle for a long lunch on land.  No reason for us to trek all the way to Seville (we have previously done this on the train) since that is a city where we have stayed for a few days (actually stayed in a neat little hotel that had its own cooking school).

 

By the way, another good option at this port is to take the train to Jerez where there are some decent Sherry places....some of which may be open for visitors.  We might think about that trek, depending on the weather and our mood.

 

Speaking of "Brits" driving in our country, we do have an English friend (who is very active here on CC) who also likes to drive in the US.  But he apparently thinks he is the reincarnation of Graham Hill, and had to suffer the humiliation of being pulled over by the police (for speeding...of course).  He had a very successful drive from Florida up our East Coast.

 

Hank

[Vallesan]

5 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We are also on the Vista and will be in Cadiz on a Sunday (that is the 2nd time we have been there on a Sunday).  Town is pretty quiet on that day and many of the shops open pretty late (after lunch) or not at all.  DW and I enjoy just walking around the town and along the sea on the other side of the peninsula.  Depending on how good the lunches on on the Vista, we may just settle for a long lunch on land.  No reason for us to trek all the way to Seville (we have previously done this on the train) since that is a city where we have stayed for a few days (actually stayed in a neat little hotel that had its own cooking school).

 

By the way, another good option at this port is to take the train to Jerez where there are some decent Sherry places....some of which may be open for visitors.  We might think about that trek, depending on the weather and our mood.

 

Hank

Another option could be El Puerto de Santa Maria about 30 minutes away by train. Wonderful ‘promenade’ through the town which I would imagine will be full of Spanish families who love to eat Sunday lunch out. Plus there’s  a vast array of seafood restaurants and fried fish is a speciality.

[Harters]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We are also on the Vista and will be in Cadiz on a Sunday

Is that the TA in a couple of weeks, Hank?

 

Cadiz may be our only lunch ashore on this cruise. I note the market opens from midday on a Sunday and has a number of tapas stalls round the edge of the building so we'll probably snack there.

 

As for driving, I suffered the ignominy of being stopped by the Park Police on the Blue Ridge Highway for speeding (40 on a stretch of the road with a 25 limit). No ticket but a severe telling off. The cop was reminding me that the low limit was for wildlife considerations. Just as he was reaching his "full officialdom", a deer bounded out across the road. Cop just looked at me and said "see what I mean, sir". I won't dwell on the recentish well publicised case of the American driving on the wrong side of the road here, with a  disastrous outcome

[Hlitner]

41 minutes ago, Harters said:

Is that the TA in a couple of weeks, Hank?

 

Cadiz may be our only lunch ashore on this cruise. I note the market opens from midday on a Sunday and has a number of tapas stalls round the edge of the building so we'll probably snack there.

 

As for driving, I suffered the ignominy of being stopped by the Park Police on the Blue Ridge Highway for speeding (40 on a stretch of the road with a 25 limit). No ticket but a severe telling off. The cop was reminding me that the low limit was for wildlife considerations. Just as he was reaching his "full officialdom", a deer bounded out across the road. Cop just looked at me and said "see what I mean, sir". I won't dwell on the recentish well publicised case of the American driving on the wrong side of the road here, with a  disastrous outcome

Yes, we are on that TA (Miami to Trieste).  Our friend had a lot of fun driving a Mustang Convertible, and he told me that he was stopped on the long Chesapeake Bay/Bridge (an picturesque place to drive).  The policeman did not want to deal with a foreign drivers license, so he was only given a warning (which I assume he ignored).  

 

I have driven in your country (many times) and the first half hour is a little frightening as I adjust to driving on the left.  When I was young, I lived in Japan for two years (where they also drive on the left side) so have had some experience.  But shifting with my left hand still results in some missed shifts :).

 

Hank

[Harters]

Maybe we'll come across each other, then.

 

I had a very close shave a few years back in Louisiana. We were coming back to the hotel  from the restaurant in a fairly rural area. And I confess the road layout was a little confusing. I knew I had to turn left but completely forgot that meant crossing the oncoming carriageway. I managed to stop just in time to miss the car by, literally a few inches. A couple of seconds more and we'd both have been write-offs and I doubt I'd be here today. Scary stuff which still vividly comes back to me. 

 

John

Edited March 11 by Harters

[HaveDogWillTravel]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:31 PM, Hlitner said:

We still think the perfect trip involves both cruising and independent land travel although we have no problem with decent small group land tours.

This is exactly our thoughts. We spent 3 weeks in Turkey and Greece with only one week on a ship. We sailed thru the Corinth Canal on our way to Athens.  This year we will spend almost 7 weeks traveling in Portugal, Spain, France and Italy. Spain and France are primarily the islands in the Med….Elba, Mahon, Corsica…..10 days on Vista and 7 days on Wind Spirit (not consecutively). Planes, trains and automobiles.  We are hiring private all day transfers that allow us to visit some of the hill towns. There will be trains from home bases in Rome, Florence, Lisbon and Barcelona that we will book on the fly if we feel like it.  While we are more than capable (and young enough) to drive we prefer not to in most cases.  We find it more relaxing. Of course private drivers are more expensive but we just include it in the budget. 
 

Even with the private transfers and drivers the land portion is less per day than our per day costs on the 17 days at sea. (PH2 on O and a mid ship low deck cabin on Spirit). I don’t think I need to use Four seasons as a comparison hotel. I think the locally owned and generationally operated Pensions in Europe are a far nicer experience.  We are staying a week in each city either in or on the very outskirts of the historic centers for an average of just under $300 per night. My sailings are between $800 and $1000 a night (for 2). When on land  I won’t be forced to pay for things that I won’t use like on my sailings, so I don’t think they should be included in any comparison of sea to land trips as someone suggested. I compare what my land expenses are to my sea expenses and land travel is always cheaper for us. But things like the smaller islands in the Med, the Corinth Canal are best done from a ship. If I like an island well enough we can always make it part of a land trip. Our 5 days on Hydra while in Greece were magical. 
 

And thanks for the restaurant suggestion in Florence. I’ve never had truffles.  If I decide to try them it’s nice to know where to go for a good experience.  

Edited March 12 by HaveDogWillTravel

[clo]

3 hours ago, HaveDogWillTravel said:

I’ve never had truffles.

Have them thinly sliced over soft scrambled eggs> MMMM.

[TRLD]

3 hours ago, HaveDogWillTravel said:

This is exactly our thoughts. We spent 3 weeks in Turkey and Greece with only one week on a ship. We sailed thru the Corinth Canal on our way to Athens.  This year we will spend almost 7 weeks traveling in Portugal, Spain, France and Italy. Spain and France are primarily the islands in the Med….Elba, Mahon, Corsica…..10 days on Vista and 7 days on Wind Spirit (not consecutively). Planes, trains and automobiles.  We are hiring private all day transfers that allow us to visit some of the hill towns. There will be trains from home bases in Rome, Florence, Lisbon and Barcelona that we will book on the fly if we feel like it.  While we are more than capable (and young enough) to drive we prefer not to in most cases.  We find it more relaxing. Of course private drivers are more expensive but we just include it in the budget. 
 

Even with the private transfers and drivers the land portion is less per day than our per day costs on the 17 days at sea. (PH2 on O and a mid ship low deck cabin on Spirit). I don’t think I need to use Four seasons as a comparison hotel. I think the locally owned and generationally operated Pensions in Europe are a far nicer experience.  We are staying a week in each city either in or on the very outskirts of the historic centers for an average of just under $300 per night. My sailings are between $800 and $1000 a night (for 2). When on land  I won’t be forced to pay for things that I won’t use like on my sailings, so I don’t think they should be included in any comparison of sea to land trips as someone suggested. I compare what my land expenses are to my sea expenses and land travel is always cheaper for us. But things like the smaller islands in the Med, the Corinth Canal are best done from a ship. If I like an island well enough we can always make it part of a land trip. Our 5 days on Hydra while in Greece were magical. 
 

And thanks for the restaurant suggestion in Florence. I’ve never had truffles.  If I decide to try them it’s nice to know where to go for a good experience.  

Yep there are many choices. One can also cruise for about $125 per person per day if they choose.

 

That is why the reports and articles are specific in comparing prices for equivalent.

 

One can go cheap onboard and expensive on land or expensive on board and cheap on land. It is all up to individual choice, but as the reports indicate in general cruising is cheaper than land based resorts at equivalent level.

[ak1004]

19 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Yep there are many choices. One can also cruise for about $125 per person per day if they choose.

 

That is why the reports and articles are specific in comparing prices for equivalent.

 

One can go cheap onboard and expensive on land or expensive on board and cheap on land. It is all up to individual choice, but as the reports indicate in general cruising is cheaper than land based resorts at equivalent level.

 

Always important to compare apples to apples. Comparing Silversea or PH on O to some cheap "Pensions in Europe" is definitely not apples to apples. And if you manage to do it under $300 per night, your meals are definitely not the same quality as O or SS.  

[Harters]

33 minutes ago, TRLD said:

reports indicate in general cruising is cheaper than land based resorts at equivalent level.

I questioned that unsupported claim when you made it at post #203 and I question it again.

 

I shared with you then the results of my own research indicating I could get an equivalent quality land based resort in Cyprus at something like 50% of an Oceania cruise. Happy to pass on the details of the resort - https://kanikahotels.com/olympic-lagoon-resorts-paphos/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=business&utm_campaign=GBP-OlympicLagoonResortsPaphos

 

We've booked a 10 day holiday there in late September and are wondering what we might do with the five grand we've saved on taking another Oceania cruise. 

[TRLD]

49 minutes ago, Harters said:

I questioned that unsupported claim when you made it at post #203 and I question it again.

 

I shared with you then the results of my own research indicating I could get an equivalent quality land based resort in Cyprus at something like 50% of an Oceania cruise. Happy to pass on the details of the resort - https://kanikahotels.com/olympic-lagoon-resorts-paphos/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=business&utm_campaign=GBP-OlympicLagoonResortsPaphos

 

We've booked a 10 day holiday there in late September and are wondering what we might do with the five grand we've saved on taking another Oceania cruise. 

You apparently did not read the referenced articles that I posted in 206 response to your post.  Would you like more sources there are many.

 

Here is another

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/cruise-operators-plan-hike-prices-costs-rise-demand-swells-2023-08-03/#:~:text=Cruise vacations before the onset,to 50%%2C he added.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/09/cruise-prices-rise-as-operators-meet-surging-travel-demand.html

 

Edited March 12 by TRLD

[Harters]

22 minutes ago, TRLD said:

You apparently did not read the referenced articles that I posted in 206 response to your post.

I hadn't. My apologies for suggesting you hadnt referenced your claim

 

Although all three of your referenced articles lean towards the the "value for money" case for land based holidays. Although I don't really need industry articles to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. As we've discussed on this and a number of other threads on the O forum, cruise prices have increased and standards have reduced - the "value for money" argument just doesnt seem to be there now. That's particularly the case the case at O's level in the market - I can still see a value for money argument for cruise lines further down the market, like P & O, Saga and Marella (none of which I'm interested in holidaying with). Of course, I'm referencing O's prices that are available to me in the UK, not the cheaper prices that are available to the American market. 

Edited March 12 by Harters

[TRLD]

12 minutes ago, Harters said:

I hadn't. My apologies for suggesting you hadnt referenced your claim

 

Although all three of your referenced articles lean towards the the "value for money" case for land based holidays. Although I don't really need industry articles to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. As we've discussed on this and a number of other threads on the O forum, cruise prices have increased and standards have reduced - the "value for money" argument just doesnt seem to be there now. That's particularly the case the case at O's level in the market - I can still see a value for money argument for cruise lines further down the market, like P & O, Saga and Marella (none of which I'm interested in holidaying with). Of course, I'm referencing O's prices that are available to me in the UK, not the cheaper prices that are available to the American market. 

What you see with your eyes is an adhoc example of your choices.  Which may be correct for whatever choices you make. But not applicable industry wide.  Just as my individual choices do not an industry wide analysis make.

 

On the other hand the articles discuss analyst views that study both the cruise and land based vacation industries and their conclusions on the actual cost of such comparisons for equivalent level selections.  Their conclusion in general, at equivalent level comparisons cruising is less expensive than land based.

 

Can one find cheap land based vacations certainly, especially in certain locations.  Can one go suites on a cruise ship and pensions on land and say look how much cheaper a land vacation is, certainly.  Can one find a cheaper all inclusive resort in some areas, certainly.  

 

But in a topic dealing with the decline of a cruise line, the potential pricing power that the cruise industry has in competition vs other travel choices the conclusions of the analysts who do such comparisons at an industry wide level would seem to be relevant.

Edited March 12 by TRLD

[ak1004]

Here is a screenshot of a cruise we took in 2018 on the Riviera in inside cabin, 10 night from Rome to Barcelona, cruise only.

 

 

And here are comparable sailings in 2024-2025 that now include SM (drinks and excursions credit):

 

At the same time, hotel in Barcelona that cost $1,150 CAD in 2020, now costs $1,750.

 

Only facts. No speculation.

[MEFIowa]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

Here is a screenshot of a cruise we took in 2018 on the Riviera in inside cabin, 10 night from Rome to Barcelona, cruise only. ... And here are comparable sailings in 2024-2025 that now include SM (drinks and excursions credit):

Thank God for the Extraordinary Savings Sale in early 2023. Our 10 nights on Riviera Triest to Athens 10/30-11/9/23 in an A3 was just $1899 PP and our 10 nights continuing on Riviera Athens to Barcelona 11/9-19/23 in a B3 was just $1749 PP. Sailing O by serious sales is the only way to go! (USD)

Edited March 12 by MEFIowa
Added a clarifying comment

[LuAnn]

18 minutes ago, MEFIowa said:

Thank God for the Extraordinary Savings Sale in early 2023. Our 10 nights on Riviera Triest to Athens 10/30-11/9/23 in an A3 was just $1899 PP and our 10 nights continuing on Riviera Athens to Barcelona 11/9-19/23 in a B3 was just $1749 PP. Sailing O by serious sales is the only way to go! (USD)

WOW!! Those rates are incredible..I'm Obviously not looking at the right sales!! Good for you!!!

[MEFIowa]

1 minute ago, LuAnn said:

... I'm Obviously not looking at the right sales!!... 

I signed up for our very first cruise in late Jan 2021 for a 12/2021 cruise on Riviera. Then I saw the O Presidents' Day Sale in Feb 2021. I rebooked it immediately and saved (going to just $2099 10 nights in an A4). And have religiously followed EVERY O sale in 2021, 2022, 2023, and now 2024. See my thread I created on all the 2023 O sales, to be keeping an eye out in 2024.

[fdnycruiser]

We all cruise for different reasons, but some like myself,like being at sea. The more sea days the better. Wouldn’t be interested at all in a land based vacation