NEWS FLASH: HAL to favor Triples and Quads

[Mary229]

4 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

This is true. To HAL it's all just inventory. But for those of us who have our own criteria for cabin choice, we're paying to make that choice. If we can be moved around at will, then we've basically got guarantees. 

And for those of us who spend many weeks if not months at sea not being able to select might be a deal breaker. 7 days in a noisy cabin is one  thing any more than that is unbearable 

Edited April 21 by Mary229

[VMax1700]

On 4/5/2024 at 2:49 PM, VMax1700 said:

We are a couple that are currently booked in a quad on Nieuw Statendam due to sail in two weeks time.  I booked a specific Obstructed Verandah as it has a very protected (from wind) verandah and our cruise is heading to a windy area.

The cruise has been sold out for many weeks and so far (15 days 10 hours 12 minutes to go, according to Navigator) we are still in the booked cabin.  As we are now reaching the window for allocation guarantee bookings, it will be interesting to see if we stay where we booked or if we are moved.  

Quoting my own post!

Just an update is that the two of us are currently in a 4 berth cabin on the sold out Nieuw Statendam.  I know it is shoulder season, but there were families with kids at boarding.

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

This is true. To HAL it's all just inventory. But for those of us who have our own criteria for cabin choice, we're paying to make that choice. If we can be moved around at will, then we've basically got guarantees. 

If you are selecting a cabin type that has both 2 and 3/4 cabins and you pay to put 2 people in a 3/4 then you are doing so with the understanding that you could be bumped if they have a larger party that they need to find space for.

 

The solution is to book a 2 person cabin for a party of 2 

 

If on the other had all of the cabins of that type are 3/4 then the odds of getting bumped  is also probably very low.

 

I suspect that even if one puts 2 people in a 3/4 cabin in a class that also has 2 cabins, the odds are still probably low, but higher than the previous situation.

Edited April 21 by TRLD

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

And for those of us who spend many weeks if not months at sea not being able to select might be a deal breaker. 7 days in a noisy cabin is one  thing any more than that is unbearable 

Answer to the new policy is pick a cabin for 2, not 3/4 if you have 2 or less in your booking. Probably avoid cabins with connecting doors as well.

[ChinaShrek]

2 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

This is true. To HAL it's all just inventory. But for those of us who have our own criteria for cabin choice, we're paying to make that choice. If we can be moved around at will, then we've basically got guarantees. 

Not if you're a family of 4. They can't move you to a smaller cabin.

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Answer to the new policy is pick a cabin for 2, not 3/4 if you have 2 or less in your booking. Probably avoid cabins with connecting doors as well.

So here is the deal.  As a 4 star Mariner I often get 3 and 4 free so I could just book someone in those and oops they didn’t show up. 

[Real NHDOC]

12 hours ago, TRLD said:

Answer to the new policy is pick a cabin for 2, not 3/4 if you have 2 or less in your booking. Probably avoid cabins with connecting doors as well.

If the cruise line offers a 3/4 cabin to 2 they should honor that offer.  That's a contract.  Offer, acceptance, consideration.  If they don't want to sell trips and quads to couples or singles, that's fine, then don't offer them.  But to offer them, book them and then say at some later date "we can move you at will because someone with a larger party wants your cabin" (or really any other reason they choose to use according to the contract) is just wrong, IMHO. 

 

I have noticed that now many cruises only show double occupancy cabins as being available when I say 2 people are traveling but the trips and quads show as being open if I say 4 are traveling.  Fine, I don't have a problem with that. 

 

What I do have a problem with is that I booked J insides on Eurodam for 31 days next winter and those are all quads.  All booked before this new policy was announced.  If we get bumped I will not be happy with any OV cabin as those are much smaller and don't have the layout that the J has.  So an "upgrade" to an OV isn't an upgrade to me.  In fact, the guarantee OV is cheaper than the J interior so it isn't an upgrade to HAL either if you consider the pricing, not the category as being the metric by which you judge cabin "level".  They can also "upgrade" me to a connecting cabin that has a higher category grading but to me that's a terrible cabin choice and one which I would never make myself.  So, again, the idea of what is an upgrade is very subjective. 

Edited April 22 by Real NHDOC

[Mary229]

4 minutes ago, Real NHDOC said:

If the cruise line offers a 3/4 cabin to 2 they should honor that offer.  That's a contract.  Offer, acceptance, consideration.  If they don't want to sell trips and quads to couples or singles, that's fine, then don't offer them.  But to offer them, book them and then say at some later date "we can move you at will because someone with a larger party wants your cabin" (or really any other reason they choose to use according to the contract) is just wrong, IMHO. 

 

I have noticed that now many cruises only show double occupancy cabins as being available when I say 2 people are traveling but the trips and quads show as being open if I say 4 are traveling.  Fine, I don't have a problem with that. 

 

What I do have a problem with is that I booked J insides on Eurodam for 31 days next winter and those are all quads.  All booked before this new policy was announced.  If we get bumped I will not be happy with any OV cabin as those are much smaller and don't have the layout that the J has.  So an "upgrade" to an OV isn't an upgrade to me.  In fact, the guarantee OV is cheaper than the J interior so it isn't an upgrade to HAL either if you consider the pricing, not the category as being the metric by which you judge cabin "level".

Exactly. As I have noted numerous times I was offered a family room. Usually they don’t book those to couples ever but they offered so I snapped it up. I was warned coming and going.  If this thread is still alive when I go I will report 

[Wehwalt]

1 hour ago, Real NHDOC said:

If the cruise line offers a 3/4 cabin to 2 they should honor that offer.  That's a contract.  Offer, acceptance, consideration. 

No, actually the cruise line is offering passage according to the conditions of its contract. That contract allows Holland to change your room. One of the terms and conditions of the contract is that the contract is the complete understanding between you and HAL. So you being told you'd have a certain cabin is not part of the contract.

[Mary229]

21 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

No, actually the cruise line is offering passage according to the conditions of its contract. That contract allows Holland to change your room. One of the terms and conditions of the contract is that the contract is the complete understanding between you and HAL. So you being told you'd have a certain cabin is not part of the contract.

There is contractual obligations and then there is the fact that consumers will leave them if they stick them in a bad room after they carefully selected a particular placement particularly in light of the fact that they charge extra to make that choice.  I think they are only left with selling everyone a guarantee then doing a bidding/upsell near sailing to profit from those who want better placement.  

[Wehwalt]

4 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

There is contractual obligations and then there is the fact that consumers will leave them if they stick them in a bad room after they carefully selected a particular placement particularly in light of the fact that they charge extra to make that choice.  I think they are only left with selling everyone a guarantee then doing a bidding/upsell near sailing to profit from those who want better placement.  

That is the tightrope they have to walk. After all, Holland has immense power over its passengers. Covid proved that. They can change your cabin, yes, but doing so may offend you as a customer, especially since you may have paid extra to select that cabin.

[Real NHDOC]

32 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

No, actually the cruise line is offering passage according to the conditions of its contract. That contract allows Holland to change your room. One of the terms and conditions of the contract is that the contract is the complete understanding between you and HAL. So you being told you'd have a certain cabin is not part of the contract.

The contract which they just revised to include this right.  When I booked my cabin they had NO SUCH CONDITION in the contract, as pointed out earlier in this thread.  So you're saying they can revise the agreement at any time and the guest is just stuck with whatever condition they choose to include in the contract?  Sorry, no.

 

In order to have a valid contract there has to be a "meeting of the minds" between the parties.  Would a typical consumer expect that the cabin they chose and paid for would only be "at the whim of the cruise line" to supply?  No, I don't think so.

Edited April 22 by Real NHDOC

[Menocchio]

2 hours ago, Real NHDOC said:

If they don't want to sell trips and quads to couples or singles, that's fine, then don't offer them.

I think that is in fact the plan. That, and arranging Guaranteed bookings. Bumping passengers is something that would only happen when all else fails. And even then, I think they may end up finding a space the displaced passengers find acceptable more often than not. 

 

I'm not saying someone getting bumped from a cabin that meets their very specific needs and desires couldn't happen. But it feels like people are assuming that's the usual course of events when it would be a rare exception. 

[Haljo1935]

56 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

...I think they are only left with selling everyone a guarantee then doing a bidding/upsell near sailing to profit from those who want better placement.  

Oh, please, no - I hope this is not the direction HAL is moving. NOT having a bidding process is one of the things that, for me, differentiates HAL and keeps them as my preferred line.

I firmly believe showing only 2 capacity cabins as available during the booking process (to those booking for 2) eliminates the majority of the "bait & switch" dilemma being discussed. And is a reasonable business plan.

[Wehwalt]

1 hour ago, Real NHDOC said:

The contract which they just revised to include this right.  When I booked my cabin they had NO SUCH CONDITION in the contract, as pointed out earlier in this thread.  So you're saying they can revise the agreement at any time and the guest is just stuck with whatever condition they choose to include in the contract?  Sorry, no.

 

In order to have a valid contract there has to be a "meeting of the minds" between the parties.  Would a typical consumer expect that the cabin they chose and paid for would only be "at the whim of the cruise line" to supply?  No, I don't think so.

This language from paragraph 4 has been there from before the change:

 

Carrier may without liability for refund, payment, compensation or credit, except as provided herein, disembark or refuse to embark You, confine You in a stateroom, quarantine You, restrain You, change Your accommodations or disembark You at any time if, in the sole opinion of Carrier, the Captain or any doctor, You or any minor or other person in Your care during the Cruise, Cruisetour, and/or Land Trip(s), are unfit for any reason for the Cruise, Cruisetour, and/or Land Trip(s), or Your presence might be detrimental to Your health, comfort or safety or that of any other person, or in the judgment of the Captain is advisable for any reason.

 

"For any reason" covers a lot. For whatever reason, they made it explicit.

[TRLD]

30 minutes ago, Haljo1935 said:

Oh, please, no - I hope this is not the direction HAL is moving. NOT having a bidding process is one of the things that, for me, differentiates HAL and keeps them as my preferred line.

I firmly believe showing only 2 capacity cabins as available during the booking process (to those booking for 2) eliminates the majority of the "bait & switch" dilemma being discussed. And is a reasonable business plan.

Except if you read posts about other lines such as Princess, you have complaints there about people getting blocked from being able to select their favorite cabin locations because of exactly those same restrictions.

 

HAL is giving you the option, with warning, for you to book what you want. One might get bumped. Most likely a low probability event in most cases. They are just making it clear that the possibility exists and that if a 2 person cabin will do you should select that one first.

[TRLD]

18 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

This language from paragraph 4 has been there from before the change:

 

Carrier may without liability for refund, payment, compensation or credit, except as provided herein, disembark or refuse to embark You, confine You in a stateroom, quarantine You, restrain You, change Your accommodations or disembark You at any time if, in the sole opinion of Carrier, the Captain or any doctor, You or any minor or other person in Your care during the Cruise, Cruisetour, and/or Land Trip(s), are unfit for any reason for the Cruise, Cruisetour, and/or Land Trip(s), or Your presence might be detrimental to Your health, comfort or safety or that of any other person, or in the judgment of the Captain is advisable for any reason.

 

"For any reason" covers a lot. For whatever reason, they made it explicit.

Not quite. That paragraph pertained to health and safety. Someone being moved from a 3/4 cabin to a 2 is not unfit to cruise.

[Mary229]

16 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Except if you read posts about other lines such as Princess, you have complaints there about people getting blocked from being able to select their favorite cabin locations because of exactly those same restrictions.

 

HAL is giving you the option, with warning, for you to book what you want. One might get bumped. Most likely a low probability event in most cases. They are just making it clear that the possibility exists and that if a 2 person cabin will do you should select that one first.

But that should be stated during booking process.  And it should be stated with a popup or other deterrent. 

[TRLD]

16 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

But that should be stated during booking process.  And it should be stated with a popup or other deterrent. 

I expect that it will probably show up on the web site in a month or two, just as the it took the legal dept a couple of weeks to get it into the contract.

 

 I expect the notices coming out now are just warning shots with the real execution starting a few months down the road.

 

So far what we are seeing is a rolling implementation of them telling us what they are going to do, not that they are actually doing it yet.

Edited April 22 by TRLD

[HappyInVan]

29 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

But that should be stated during booking process.  And it should be stated with a popup or other deterrent. 

 

+1

 

I'm astonished that some posters on this forum speak with such assurance for HAL. I have to wonder if they are with HAL???

 

Personally, I hope that HAL takes note of the criticism after each of their brilliant innovation. The customer comes first?

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, HappyInVan said:

 

+1

 

I'm astonished that some posters on this forum speak with such assurance for HAL. I have to wonder if they are with HAL???

 

Personally, I hope that HAL takes note of the criticism after each of their brilliant innovation. The customer comes first?

I think HAL does read this forum. I also think we need to speak up. Many businesses go happily along because no one speaks up. it is not because we work for HAL which saying so is just plain snarky.  It is because I meet so many people who have been manhandled by agencies, tour companies or cruise lines and sit quietly stewing.  If you speak up effectively you might be surprised.  Sitting back and saying nothing gets you absolutely nothing 

[Wehwalt]

55 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Not quite. That paragraph pertained to health and safety. Someone being moved from a 3/4 cabin to a 2 is not unfit to cruise.

"or in the judgment of the Captain is advisable for any reason." It covers them. I suspect they wanted to make it more explicit, and whether or not this thread had anything to do with it is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised. Why wouldn't they?

Edited April 22 by Wehwalt

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, Wehwalt said:

"or in the judgment of the Captain is advisable for any reason." It covers them. I suspect they wanted to make it more explicit, and whether or not this thread had anything to do with it is only speculation.

There have been examples of HAL responding quickly because of Cruise Critic threads.  The one that I recall most recently was the introduction of the AARP OBC.  The language changed two or three times in one day in response to comments on these boards 

[TRLD]

2 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

"or in the judgment of the Captain is advisable for any reason." It covers them. I suspect they wanted to make it more explicit, and whether or not this thread had anything to do with it is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised. Why wouldn't they?

Not really. One still has to into account the context.

 

Other language in the contract might cover them that paragraph does not.

[TRLD]

6 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I think HAL does read this forum. I also think we need to speak up. Many businesses go happily along because no one speaks up. it is not because we work for HAL which saying so is just plain snarky.  It is because I meet so many people who have been manhandled by agencies, tour companies or cruise lines and sit quietly stewing.  If you speak up effectively you might be surprised.  Sitting back and saying nothing gets you absolutely nothing 

I expect it is more a matter of feedback they receive from a number of sources which probably include some of the same things as discussed here, more than they are reacting to CC posts.