Passport Clarification Needed..

[room010]

Re: ESTA

 

This is effectively an online US visa application and I used it to obtain one before my trip to Alaska from Vancouver. I printed off the necessary document and presented it to US immigration prior to boarding as my ship (Zuiderdam) was considered US territory even though we were actually in Canada. All went well until I was told that the ESTA computers were down so I had to fill out all the forms all over again manually there and then and re-submit them :p It wasn't a problem but it did delay us getting on board.

 

I really can't understand why the question of whether or not to renew an almost expired passport is causing so much angst. Just do it.

[Taxguy77]

I learned from a difficult experience some years ago the hard way, and never, never , never leave home now without both my passport and an original birth certificate.

 

The passport I know will get me back INTO the country - if you don't have proof of US citizenship, you can't come home without a LOT of problems. US Immigration is very strict about that know matter how much you plead. I also carry the birth certificate - if you are in a situation where the host country becomes "difficult" in their attitude to Americans, or rules tighten up making it hard for Americans to travel, and there is a need for an emergency evacuation of some sort, it makes it eaier to get out via a Vatican Nuncio rather than the US Embassy... most times our embassies are not all that helpful. I may be overcautious, but after a scare in Europe during the post 9/11 days, I feel better travelling that way. We won't even mention the bribe cash I carry in my shoes... LOL

Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared!

But now you have to worry about your shoes in the basket at homeland security!.

[0verboard]

Because your passport is the only US-government-recognized form of identification and proof of citizenship

I just have to pick nits with this one particular part. Yes, the passport card is limited when it comes to travel. But everything I read indicates that it establishes both identification and citizenship.

 

Source: US Citizenship and Immigration Services http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=8daff5a7ebd9b110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=55b2aca797e63110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

 

Evidently, it meets our internal requirements for such things, but is not compliant with our agreements with other nations via the WHTI.

[Terpnut]

I just have to pick nits with this one particular part. Yes, the passport card is limited when it comes to travel. But everything I read indicates that it establishes both identification and citizenship.

 

Source: US Citizenship and Immigration Services http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=8daff5a7ebd9b110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=55b2aca797e63110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

 

Evidently, it meets our internal requirements for such things, but is not compliant with our agreements with other nations via the WHTI.

The passport card indeed would be a step in the right direction for a "national ID card" for US citizens IF the government actually required it for everyone. But they don't, so its value as an identification document inside the US is limited. I'd bet most local police would furl their eyebrows and scratch their heads if you were pulled over and presented a passport card as ID.

 

Anyhow, so to clarify: "your passport is the only universally-recognized form of identification and proof of citizenship". While the passport card can indeed be used in the US, most people simply use their driver's license--a de facto ID here in the US. My point however, was that it is a serious mistake to believe that your DL, birth certificate or passport card will be useful in similar situations abroad.

 

The point of this thread was to discuss the relative value of various travel-related documents while overseas, so my point remains that your U.S. passport is the best and only universally-recognized valid form of identification and citizenship while you are abroad so carry it with you at all times.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Terpnut

[TPKeller]

The passport card indeed would be a step in the right direction for a "national ID card" for US citizens IF the government actually required it for everyone. But they don't, so its value as an identification document inside the US is limited. I'd bet most local police would furl their eyebrows and scratch their heads if you were pulled over and presented a passport card as ID.

 

Anyhow, so to clarify: "your passport is the only universally-recognized form of identification and proof of citizenship". While the passport card can indeed be used in the US, most people simply use their driver's license--a de facto ID here in the US. My point however, was that it is a serious mistake to believe that your DL, birth certificate or passport card will be useful in similar situations abroad.

 

The point of this thread was to discuss the relative value of various travel-related documents while overseas, so my point remains that your U.S. passport is the best and only universally-recognized valid form of identification and citizenship while you are abroad so carry it with you at all times.

We're drifting off topic here... but it is worth noting that there is no Federal Law requirement to identify yourself to a police officer. The states have various laws on the matter, but for now at least, we are not a "papers please" nation.

 

Now obviously, if you are driving, you must present your drivers license, but for encounters on foot, etc, where you are not engaged in a privileged activity (e.g. driving a car!) state and/or local law determines how you are required to respond. For more, read the article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

 

One of the foundational cases in this area was Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, which set precedent for this area. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that according to the law in Nevada, you were not even required to hand over an ID card, but just to state your name to the officer. It's very interesting, and most people are completely unaware of the level of complexity involved in determining what a police officer may or may not legally require you to divulge under the various circumstances. Job security for lawyers, I suppose! ;)

 

Again, this is mostly OT for cruise related issues... outside the country, and especially as you return to the country, none of your constitutional rights apply.

 

Theron

[Bryan&Roger]

I wanted to warn any non-US cruisers to be very careful if they cruise with a replacement passport. I had an unfortunate experience and I enclose a copy of the letter and email I sent to Princess.

 

 

November 4, 2009

Mr. Alan B. Buckelew

President and Chief Executive Officer

Princess Cruises

24844 Avenue Rockefeller

Santa Clarita, CA USA 91355

 

Dear Mr. Buckelew,

Re: Cruises No 943 & 944 Sapphire Princess 10/17/09 – 10/31/09 Booking No.

I am a great fan of Princess Cruises and have completed 12 cruises with you in the last 6 years.

The most recent cruise from 10/17 to 10/31 was immense fun until I tried to disembark from the ship at the end of the cruise. I was prevented from leaving the ship by Princess staff and had to wait 15 minutes for TSA personnel to escort me off the ship like a common criminal past all the other passengers. I was then processed, separated from my partner and kept waiting in the TSA office for some long time (knowing that I could miss my flight at 11 am), I was eventually seen by TSA staff and released after a total of over one hour.

It transpired that Princess had given TSA my old passport number and they (TSA) wanted to know why I had 2 passports. Eventually they decided to believe that I was the same person and that my previous passport had been replaced. At this point my partner and I had to scramble to get an expensive taxi to the airport in time for our flight.

I want to know why Princess gave TSA my old passport number. I had completed the boarding pass information on line with my current passport details. The passport had also been scanned as I initially boarded the ship. I trust you will look into this matter to ensure that this humiliation does not happen again to some other poor non-US passenger.

The whole experience was extremely traumatic for my partner and me.

Thank you, I await your response.

 

 

 

So far there has been a deathly silence from Princess.

Needless to say I shall be trying to ensure that Princess or any other cruise line provide the correct information to the TSA in future.

 

Roger

[AShann]

Is it a closed loop cruise? If it departs from and returns to the same port, I think you only need a birth certificate and driver's license. I find this issue confusing as well, but there is some good information here: http://*****/cruise-preparation/identification-documents/passport-usa/

 

You should be able to call the line directly, give them your info, and get an answer specific to your trip. If it were me, I'd probably just get a passport regardless. Seems like they like to change the regulations alot.

[mapsmith]

Just read this article on the Real ID program. It may come to pass that unless the Congress passes the Pass ID legislation before the end of the year, you may need to have a passport to fly domestically.

 

link http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/the-real-id-squeeze-%e2%80%94-will-many-need-passports-to-fly-domestically/

 

Of course if your state participates in the REAL ID program, you should have no problem.

 

This hasn't happened yet, but you might want to think about it.

[Terpnut]

Just read this article on the Real ID program. It may come to pass that unless the Congress passes the Pass ID legislation before the end of the year, you may need to have a passport to fly domestically.

 

link http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/the-real-id-squeeze-%e2%80%94-will-many-need-passports-to-fly-domestically/

 

Of course if your state participates in the REAL ID program, you should have no problem.

 

This hasn't happened yet, but you might want to think about it.

For some time now, I have been ranting about the need for everyone to get passports especially because of the inordinate focus (and confusion) in many threads about using driver's licenses and/or birth certificates as substitutes for travel identification. However, what many people don't realize is that drivers licenses have never been nor ever will be very good forms of identification especially because many states (including mine, Maryland) have poor track records and cannot be trusted to issue valid IDs. In the mid-Atlantic region, the big joke is that Maryland is the best place for illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses because it's so easy to fake everything. There is little to no credibility to supposedly authoritative documents like driver's licenses and birth certificates and thus our nation's security can't be entrusted to them. Thus it is only logical and reasonable to move toward some sort of national ID standard. And barring that, the passport is the one and only remaining usable ID document left for domestic and international travelers to use. In summary, it just makes sense for the government to require either a passport or some new national ID, and for all travelers (regardless of where they're going) to get and carry one NOW! Edited December 4, 2009 by Terpnut

[SDale]

If you're a US citizen who wants to travel, GET YOUR PASSPORT!

 

The following information was obtained today, December 8, 2009 from the Customs & Border Protection division of the Department of Homeland Security. As I read it, you need a passport or one of the other listed documents for all travel outside the US. Since a passport is probably the most common & easily obtained of the documents listed, get one!

 

Documents You Will Need To Enter The

United States

All persons including citizens of the United States

traveling by air between the U.S., Canada, Mexico, the

Caribbean and Bermuda will have to present a passport,

Merchant Mariner Document (presented by U.S. citizen

merchant mariners traveling on official business) or

NEXUS Card, NEXUS enrollment is limited to citizens

of the United States and Canada, and lawful permanent

residents of the United States and Canada. Children will

be required to present their own passport.

 

Beginning June 1, 2009, ages 16 and older will be

required to present documents from one of the options

below when entering the United States at land or sea

ports of entry. Children under may present an original

or copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report

of Birth Abroad, or a Naturalization Certificate.

 

One of the following documents may be presented to

prove both identity and citizenship:

• U.S. Passport;

• U.S. Passport Card;*

• Trusted Traveler Cards (NEXUS, SENTRI, FAST);*

• State issued Enhanced Driver’s License (when available

this secure driver’s license will denote identity

and citizenship);* NOTE: this is NOT your regular Driver's License! If you don't know if you have an Enhanced one or not, then you don't! The only states issuing this type are Michigan, New York, Vermont and Washington.

• Enhanced Tribal Cards (when available);*

• U.S. Military identification with Military Travel

Orders;

• U.S. Merchant Marine document;

• Form I-872 American Indian Card.

 

Any questions? Don't ask me! I'm just a poster here, what do I know? Don't trust your travel agent either. Ours told us that we didn't need our passports for our cruise at the end of this month. Go to http://travel.state.gov/ for current travel information.

[SDale]

With a "closed-loop cruise" you aren't required to have a passport but can get back home with just DL/BC.

 

This exception is stated on the Department of Homeland Security website (http://www.dhs.gov) and codified at title 22, Code of Federal Regulations Part 53.2 as follows:

 

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

 

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services

[SDale]

You may not be required to have a passport if you meet the cruise passenger exception. However, you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. In order to find out that information, go to http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1765.html. It lists country specific entry/exit requirements in the international travel section.

[TPKeller]

What's this "passport" thing you have brought to our attention?

 

 

 

 

;)

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

 

Theron

[cherylandtk]

Oh Theron, you crack me up...now be gentle to the newbies who are just discovering this passport thingy. :p

[Terpnut]

What's this "passport" thing you have brought to our attention?

 

 

 

 

;)

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

 

Theron

He Theron! Nice to see you again! Please don't get me started on this "passport" thing! :rolleyes: :D ;)

[Coolmama_1]

With a "closed-loop cruise" you aren't required to have a passport but can get back home with just DL/BC.

 

This exception is stated on the Department of Homeland Security website (www.dhs.gov) and codified at title 22, Code of Federal Regulations Part 53.2 as follows:

 

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

 

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services

 

Not necessarily true. We just received notification from our TA that our Crown Priincess cruise in April doe not qualify for the passport exception and we do need one. We already have passports, so no big deal to us. I am not sure why it doesn't quailify. It is a Western Caribbean cruise to Roatan, Grand Caymen and Cozumel.

[vjmatty]

Not necessarily true. We just received notification from our TA that our Crown Priincess cruise in April doe not qualify for the passport exception and we do need one. We already have passports, so no big deal to us. I am not sure why it doesn't quailify. It is a Western Caribbean cruise to Roatan, Grand Caymen and Cozumel.

 

If you look at one of the earlier posts, the US has apparently redefined terms like "closed loop" and "Western Hemisphere".... for example South America is no longer in the Western Hemisphere :rolleyes: .... poor thing just disappeared into some other region of the world not yet defined. Perhaps Central America, and therefore Roatan has also been exiled from the Hemisphere.

 

All of that ridiculousness aside, I've had a passport since I was two and therefore carry it on all cruises, though I don't care for the proposed regulation that would require one for domestic travel unless a passport card or enhanced license will qualify, as suggested they might. Passports take too much time and money to replace, not to mention they don't fit in my wallet. The only time it is worth the inconvenience of carrying is when I get a nice new stamp in it.... so I like carrying it for any kind of international travel. Domestic flights with no stamp? Not worth it.

[smeyer418]

You may not be required to have a passport if you meet the cruise passenger exception. However, you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. In order to find out that information, go to http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1765.html. It lists country specific entry/exit requirements in the international travel section.

I know its weird BUT the information is wrong as to cruise passengers on the that site. Its frankly not good for people on cruises. Not that I have a better site but the state department site is basically useless for cruise passengers.

and even though DHS says you don't need a passport, no cruise line or airline will let you on board to leave the US if a passport is required to get back in and you don't have one.

The best source is your cruise line-which the CSR's won't be always right either- how many times have we seen carry your marriage license or the "required" parental consent which no one asks for.

Personally unless I am absolutely positively sure(I took my grandson to Bermuda by ship in October the TA told me a passport was necessary-I knew better) get the passport

Edited December 15, 2009 by smeyer418

[njhorseman]

I know its weird BUT the information is wrong as to cruise passengers on the that site. Its frankly not good for people on cruises. Not that I have a better site but the state department site is basically useless for cruise passengers.

and even though DHS says you don't need a passport, no cruise line or airline will let you on board to leave the US if a passport is required to get back in and you don't have one.

The best source is your cruise line-which the CSR's won't be always right either- how many times have we seen carry your marriage license or the "required" parental consent which no one asks for.

Personally unless I am absolutely positively sure(I took my grandson to Bermuda by ship in October the TA told me a passport was necessary-I knew better) get the passport

 

This page from Customs and Border Protection is better. It lists the exceptions to the passport requirement including those for children and closed loop cruises.

 

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/eng_sa.html

 

You actually may want to start by looking at the home page (the URL I gave above is the exceptions page for "Special Groups"):

 

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/index.html

Edited December 15, 2009 by njhorseman

[cherylandtk]

Not necessarily true. We just received notification from our TA that our Crown Priincess cruise in April doe not qualify for the passport exception and we do need one. We already have passports, so no big deal to us. I am not sure why it doesn't quailify. It is a Western Caribbean cruise to Roatan, Grand Caymen and Cozumel.

While I personally would not travel without a passport, your TA may just be mistaken. On Carnival's website they specifically say "Recent guidance received from the Department of Homeland Security indicates the documentary requirements under WHTI for “closed loop” cruises are not limited to cruises that travel only to contiguous territories or adjacent islands. This means U.S. citizens calling on ports in Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica and Belize will also be exempt from the passport requirement." Now if all the cruiselines could just have the same passport information on all their sites.

[smeyer418]

This page from Customs and Border Protection is better. It lists the exceptions to the passport requirement including those for children and closed loop cruises.

 

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/eng_sa.html

 

You actually may want to start by looking at the home page (the URL I gave above is the exceptions page for "Special Groups"):

 

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/index.html

 

 

but this also says-

 

" Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents."

 

The problem is the US DOS website is useless for this purpose for cruise passengers.

 

 

NJHorseman guarding my grandson...

Edited December 15, 2009 by smeyer418

[njhorseman]

but this also says-

 

" Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents."

 

The problem is the US DOS website is useless for this purpose for cruise passengers.

 

 

NJHorseman guarding my grandson...

 

You never did pay me for that gig...;):D

[TPKeller]

If you look at one of the earlier posts, the US has apparently redefined terms like "closed loop" and "Western Hemisphere".... for example South America is no longer in the Western Hemisphere :rolleyes: .... poor thing just disappeared into some other region of the world not yet defined. Perhaps Central America, and therefore Roatan has also been exiled from the Hemisphere.

If you read these rules very carefully, what you will see is that they mean (...sadly, even though they don't always say) "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative Area". The "area" is specifically defined, and can change. And yes, it makes it very hard for everyone to keep up with what it means today.

 

Theron

[rcllover]

yes you need passports

[Hlitner]

We have long advised folks cruising to get a passport, even if its not required. Well, this eveing on a Pennsylvania TV station they did a report on a young couple who went to Balitmore to get on a Carnival cruise. This was their trip of a lifetime. When they got to the port they were denied boarding because their "birth certificate" was not a legal birth certificate. Yes, it was issued by the Commonwealth of PA, but technically is was not official. This kind of problem is not that uncommon. We could go into details how your birth certificate must be an official original document, have a raised seal, etc etc etc. The bottom line is that if you want to travel outside the USA get yourself a real passport!

 

Hank