What about Israel airport security?

[Donray]

What about Israel airport security?

First off, Ben Gurion International airport handles 11.5 million passengers a year. This compares with 60 million at Atlanta, 40 million at LAZ, and even 23 million at Orlando (a smaller airport). So when you start looking at the voulme Isreal has a lot less passengers to profile.

Anyone want to guess how many FBI agents would be required just at LAX to interview all passengers?

Israel uses strip searches. So, you want TSA agents here to do strip searches on selected people based on profiling and how you act? Why don't all you people that think a pat down over cloths is invasive want the Israel type strip searches? You would have no problem with your daughter going into a room and having a strip search like they do in Israel, but complain about going through a scanner? http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/strip-searches.html

Israel also has a national ID that is required to fly. So, I guess everyone that wants Isreal security also favors a National ID card that will require background checks. We use a driver lense that is meaningless for a security ID.

Funny, all those that think a scanner at an airport is government intrusion seem to want the nation ID card. Of course this would also help in that no illegal immigrant will fly any more.

A good percentage of people will wound up spending hours being interrogated if we use the Israel system. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/07/donna-shalala-detained-in_n_674479.html

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/airport_securit_7.html

I would guess going to the Israel security system in our airports would require most people to be at the airport four hours before your flight since you never know if you will be identified as the person needing private interrogation and strip search.

From http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Israeli+airport+security+methods+studied-a01611352646

"Israeli experts say bolstering security efforts requires an extensive, and at times intrusive, interrogation process. Upon reaching the departure terminal, all passengers undergo individual questioning by security officers, who probe everything from their religious beliefs to travel companions inside the country."

 

"Since profiling is employed, stricter security checks are not random. Instead, Israeli citizens are passed through with minimal questioning, unless they are Israeli Arabs, who are often subjected to humiliating body searches and interrogation. The security process has triggered many complaints, but in a nation where security is the top priority, little has been done to ease the checks."

Still think you want the Israel security?????????

[FlyerTalker]

Let's see.....I've been "interviewed" in Dubai, in Amsterdam, in Sydney, in London, and many more places. I've had the odd-ball questions tossed at me, fielded them, and been given the green light to the WTMD. They profile the person. The TSA is focused on the object.

 

If box-cutters had been banned on 9/11, I think they would have used shoelaces as a garotte on a FA. Or flown first class and broken cocktail glasses to get sharp shards. Or used a ball point pen to the carotid artery or eye. It wasn't the weapon, it was the perpetrator. And we continue to ignore that fact - to our grave peril.

 

George Will has a wonderful Sunday column. Among its choice morsels:

 

What the TSA is doing is mostly security theater, a pageant to reassure passengers that flying is safe. Reassurance is necessary if commerce is going to flourish and if we are going to get to grandma's house on Thursday to give thanks for the Pilgrims and for freedom. If grandma is coming to our house, she may be wanded while barefoot at the airport because democracy - or the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment; anyway, something - requires the amiable nonsense of pretending that no one has the foggiest idea what an actual potential terrorist might look like.

and

The average American has regular contact with the federal government at three points - the IRS, the post office and the TSA. Start with that fact if you are formulating a unified field theory to explain the public's current political mood.

[greatam]

They profile the person. The TSA is focused on the object.

 

It wasn't the weapon, it was the perpetrator. And we continue to ignore that fact - to our grave peril.

 

 

To the OP (even though I used Flyertalker's quote)

 

This country is just getting too namby/pamby, too PC for it's own good. And between the current DHS head and the last one, airline/cargo security has gone downhill fast. If you want to know some things that go on "behind the scenes", email me. I can give you VERY good examples from Hurricane Katrina and BIAP (Baghdad International Airport). DHS is STILL fighting with trucking companies and cargo air carriers about what should and shouldn't be done, all the while embarrassing US grandmothers and flight attendants surviving cancer. And believe me, DHS rules are all VERY PC-they sure don't want to upset anyone.

 

I am in the international logistics business. I can almost guarantee (about 99%) that if someone wanted to put a bomb on a plane, it would get there. The three containers we delivered to JFK Friday afternoon were from OUR trusted shippers. YES, we had manifests and knew who our shippers were (one shipment was expensive chocolates, another was flowers, another was all the goodies for an upscale wedding in SoCal next weekend.). Could something else be in that container? You betcha. Just got to find the right person with the right mentality, change the manifest (VERY very easy) and look like you know what they are doing. Right onto the plane it would go.

 

I would WELCOME Israeli type security. It would lift a TREMENDOUS burden off our business. We would have trained professionals doing profiling and more cargo checks.

 

I know one TSA agent very well-she is my first cousin. Does she have any airline experience, any military experience, any LEO experience??? NO, she passed the security check and needed a job (if I am not mistaken, it was STIMULUS money for the Colorado Springs airport that got her hired). She had been a stay at home Mom for a good portion of her adult life. She even admits all the new stuff is a big joke. They are NOT scanning or patting down MUSLIM women. Too afraid they may be sued or make it on the 10PM news. Female Muslim suicide bombers are what we have all been warned about but obviously, no one who runs these agencies pays any heed.

 

I LOVE the mission statement of one of the links you posted. Talk about "way out there". http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/

 

Please read a sensible, well thought out article about Israeli security. YES we sure could use it.

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother

[Sargent_Schultz]

How many days in advance would Americans need to go through security in order to make their planes, if Israeli type security were in place?

[greatam]

How many days in advance would Americans need to go through security in order to make their planes, if Israeli type security were in place?

 

It would be faster than it is today because they PROFILE. But of course, our PC government could not go there. Too much threat from the ACLU, etc. etc.

 

Have you ever flown El Al? Have you ever spent any time in the Middle East. A whole different system and mostly VERY efficient. Do they ask questions? Of course. And I am asked probably more than the average traveler as I am a woman traveling alone in those areas. BUT I certainly find answering questions about where I have been, who I know, what I do a lot less intrusive than someone grabbing my boobs.

[paul929207]

Say what you want about Israeli security, buy El Al has never had a hijacking

[Jinn]

Amen, Flyertalker! Julia

[scottbee]

Say what you want about Israeli security, buy El Al has never had a hijacking

 

Nice statistic; if it were true.

707 Hijacked by the Popular Front (and here I thought they were the People's Front -- splitters)

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19680723-0

 

And this attempt, where the hijacker did make it on board, but didn't managed to get past an air marshall

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700906-1

 

or when this bomb made it on board and exploded?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19720816-0

[Sargent_Schultz]

It would be faster than it is today because they PROFILE. But of course, our PC government could not go there. Too much threat from the ACLU, etc. etc.

 

Have you ever flown El Al? Have you ever spent any time in the Middle East. A whole different system and mostly VERY efficient. Do they ask questions? Of course. And I am asked probably more than the average traveler as I am a woman traveling alone in those areas. BUT I certainly find answering questions about where I have been, who I know, what I do a lot less intrusive than someone grabbing my boobs.

 

I have not been on El Al but have been to the Middle East.

 

My observation is that many other countries are more efficient than the United States at some things. I'm not sure that obese, lazy Americans would make good screeners ala El Al. Now if we could outsource our airport security to the same folks????

[lovesublime]

Nice statistic; if it were true.

707 Hijacked by the Popular Front (and here I thought they were the People's Front -- splitters)

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19680723-0

 

And this attempt, where the hijacker did make it on board, but didn't managed to get past an air marshall

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700906-1

 

or when this bomb made it on board and exploded?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19720816-0

 

 

 

I believe what the poster was trying to state is that Israel has not had a hijacking in more than 30 years. I do think they had a security breach about 8 years ago though. Anyway, they certainly have a better record than anyone else.

[Balloon Man]

I have flown to Israel several times. I have had the contents of my hold bag tipped out in front of everybody while it was sent to be x-rayed at Ben Gurion prior to check-in. I have been questioned extensively by their security people both at BG and Heathrow. And I was really quite happy about the procedure because they were doing it to keep ME safe ... and a few hundred other folks. It didn't take extra time because they had sufficient numbers of officers doing the job. My objection is to airports that have long queues because they don't employ enough people and the queues give the impression of thoroughness.

[world~citizen]

What about Israel airport security?

First off, Ben Gurion International airport handles 11.5 million passengers a year. This compares with 60 million at Atlanta, 40 million at LAZ, and even 23 million at Orlando (a smaller airport). So when you start looking at the voulme Isreal has a lot less passengers to profile.

Anyone want to guess how many FBI agents would be required just at LAX to interview all passengers?

Israel uses strip searches. So, you want TSA agents here to do strip searches on selected people based on profiling and how you act? Why don't all you people that think a pat down over cloths is invasive want the Israel type strip searches? You would have no problem with your daughter going into a room and having a strip search like they do in Israel, but complain about going through a scanner? http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/strip-searches.html

Israel also has a national ID that is required to fly. So, I guess everyone that wants Isreal security also favors a National ID card that will require background checks. We use a driver lense that is meaningless for a security ID.

Funny, all those that think a scanner at an airport is government intrusion seem to want the nation ID card. Of course this would also help in that no illegal immigrant will fly any more.

A good percentage of people will wound up spending hours being interrogated if we use the Israel system. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/07/donna-shalala-detained-in_n_674479.html

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/airport_securit_7.html

I would guess going to the Israel security system in our airports would require most people to be at the airport four hours before your flight since you never know if you will be identified as the person needing private interrogation and strip search.

From http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Israeli+airport+security+methods+studied-a01611352646

"Israeli experts say bolstering security efforts requires an extensive, and at times intrusive, interrogation process. Upon reaching the departure terminal, all passengers undergo individual questioning by security officers, who probe everything from their religious beliefs to travel companions inside the country."

 

"Since profiling is employed, stricter security checks are not random. Instead, Israeli citizens are passed through with minimal questioning, unless they are Israeli Arabs, who are often subjected to humiliating body searches and interrogation. The security process has triggered many complaints, but in a nation where security is the top priority, little has been done to ease the checks."

Still think you want the Israel security?????????

 

Thank-you so much for this post.

 

Israel has the right to do as it wishes and god bless them.

 

Do I want that kind of security check for my country?

 

No.

 

If one takes the time to read the articles you link to, I don't see how they could come to any other conclusion.

 

However, we all make our own minds up. We all have our own priorities.

 

Smooth sailing...

[CEO of Caribe Deck]

What the TSA is doing is mostly security theater, a pageant to reassure passengers that flying is safe.

What the TSA is doing is an attempt to justify their own existence and the growth of their own little federally-funded empire. They are doing nothing more than every other government agency, and that is, lining up for their piece of Cuzzin Pookie's pie.

 

“Pookie means a whole lot of different things; none of them are good,” said Kevin Gray, a South Carolina writer and activist. “Pookie’s always the foil.”

 

If you haven't made the connection yet, Pookie is We The People.

[greatam]

Thank-you so much for this post.

 

Israel has the right to do as it wishes and god bless them.

 

Do I want that kind of security check for my country?

 

No.

 

The largest difference-Israel PROFILES. IF you fit the profile, you may be subjected to the full enchilada. If not, be on your way in 1-3 minutes. Our government, trying to avoid lawsuits and the wrath of the ACLU, REFUSES to profile airline passengers. But try to get a job at a nuke plant, a high security location (like water and gas plants/distribution systems) or even a minor security clearance for the military and you are PROFILED, your background is searched extensively, all your friends and relatives are called and they even dig up all the "bad stuff" you did in high school and college. Why is it OK to PROFILE for certain jobs but NOT airline passengers? Why doesn't the US take advantage of some of the expertise from average people and criminals (yes, I said criminals-some of the best minds in the world) to devise systems that work? Because we live in this horribly PC world where every word and action can be taken as an "offense" to someone.

 

 

If one takes the time to read the articles you link to, I don't see how they could come to any other conclusion.

 

I certainly don't see how you came to the conclusion you did. One article is from an anti-Israeli organization (please read Action Focus #1), one from Ariana Huffington (who somehow went from being the wife of a high profile California CONSERVATIVE Congressman AND CONSERVATIVE commentator) to about as far left as you can go (while she flies around in private planes, she wants to FORCE Californians to drive those stupid little "eco cars") and the last article from a security expert-IT SECURITY, not transportation security.

 

Certainly not the most credible sources, IMHO. Stratfor/Jane's Intelligence (paid subscriptions) and even Debka (free for limited distribution) provide far better sources.

[world~citizen]

...I certainly don't see how you came to the conclusion you did.

 

Easy.

 

A friend of mine is a school teacher. She flew to Israel (who wouldn't want to) during vacation.

 

Her story: security asked her who paid for her ticket, she said she did and they said teacher's don't make that much money. (They actually really do in Canada.)

 

She got the big strip search.

 

I don't think I have to connect the dots any further...

 

However, I respect, as always, your opinion.

 

Smooth sailing...

[Gardyloo]

I travel to Israel pretty often, and my take is that comparing Israeli or El Al airport/flight security procedures with US procedures is kinda pointless. Apples and hummus.

 

TLV handles around 11 million passengers annually. That's it for the whole country. Except for a tiny number of people arriving at Eilat airport on charters, or an even tinier number arriving by land from Jordan or Egypt, and a handful of cruise passengers, the immigration and security procedures at Ben Gurion, and at various origin airports around the world, comprise the totality of Israeli flight security obligations. By comparison In 2008 there were over 735 million enplanements in the US. There are twenty US airports that handle greater traffic volume than TLV, and hundreds more that have enough traffic - including international arrivals and departures - to justify significant airport security investment. Remember where several of the 9-11 perps boarded planes and went through security... Portland, Maine.

 

Remember too that Israeli security (the government-controlled kind) is primarily focused on outbound passengers. The look-me-in-the-eye stuff happens at the airport entrance (and believe me, it's about as cursory as the same thing you get arriving at Narita airport in Tokyo - i.e., not much) and there are always some questions when you check your bags and check in. One big difference is that your bags are x-rayed in your presence before you go through your own security and before they're tagged. In the US that would represent a humongous traffic jam and would require sweeping re-design of US airports (over taxpayers' dead bodies).

 

But if there's an area of vulnerability in the Israeli setup, it's that pax originating elsewhere are only subjected to the same level of security as everybody else at that originating airport. It's true that El Al uses a higher level of interview/assessment at many airports for pax boarding El Al flights, but lots of other airlines besides El Al fly to Israel. I've never had more- or less-intensive security procedures imposed on me when flying to TLV from London on BA or Madrid on Iberia than I've had when flying someplace else from those airports.

 

I think the US authorities are trying their best to hit the sweet spot between security and freedom of movement. Maybe the pendulum swings a little too far once in a while, but I don't question their intentions. Sure, a higher emphasis on threat deterrence and spotting the would-be terrorist rather than the devices used to terrorize would be a good thing, but the US is a huge and incredibly diverse country, and TSA inspectors are only human. And sure, patting down an old lady or a kid sounds silly and invasive, but recall that some of the Iraqi and Afghani bombers now are young girls. The jihadist mind-set is a remarkable thing.

 

I went through a scanner and pat-down at ORD last week. I lived. You will too.

[njhorseman]

I travel to Israel pretty often, and my take is that comparing Israeli or El Al airport/flight security procedures with US procedures is kinda pointless. Apples and hummus.

 

TLV handles around 11 million passengers annually. That's it for the whole country. Except for a tiny number of people arriving at Eilat airport on charters, or an even tinier number arriving by land from Jordan or Egypt, and a handful of cruise passengers, the immigration and security procedures at Ben Gurion, and at various origin airports around the world, comprise the totality of Israeli flight security obligations. By comparison In 2008 there were over 735 million enplanements in the US. There are twenty US airports that handle greater traffic volume than TLV, and hundreds more that have enough traffic - including international arrivals and departures - to justify significant airport security investment. Remember where several of the 9-11 perps boarded planes and went through security... Portland, Maine.

 

Remember too that Israeli security (the government-controlled kind) is primarily focused on outbound passengers. The look-me-in-the-eye stuff happens at the airport entrance (and believe me, it's about as cursory as the same thing you get arriving at Narita airport in Tokyo - i.e., not much) and there are always some questions when you check your bags and check in. One big difference is that your bags are x-rayed in your presence before you go through your own security and before they're tagged. In the US that would represent a humongous traffic jam and would require sweeping re-design of US airports (over taxpayers' dead bodies).

 

But if there's an area of vulnerability in the Israeli setup, it's that pax originating elsewhere are only subjected to the same level of security as everybody else at that originating airport. It's true that El Al uses a higher level of interview/assessment at many airports for pax boarding El Al flights, but lots of other airlines besides El Al fly to Israel. I've never had more- or less-intensive security procedures imposed on me when flying to TLV from London on BA or Madrid on Iberia than I've had when flying someplace else from those airports.

 

I think the US authorities are trying their best to hit the sweet spot between security and freedom of movement. Maybe the pendulum swings a little too far once in a while, but I don't question their intentions. Sure, a higher emphasis on threat deterrence and spotting the would-be terrorist rather than the devices used to terrorize would be a good thing, but the US is a huge and incredibly diverse country, and TSA inspectors are only human. And sure, patting down an old lady or a kid sounds silly and invasive, but recall that some of the Iraqi and Afghani bombers now are young girls. The jihadist mind-set is a remarkable thing.

 

I went through a scanner and pat-down at ORD last week. I lived. You will too.

 

We have seen preparations for additional screening for a CO flight EWR-TLV. We were at the gate area awaiting a flight, with the TLV-bound flight scheduled to depart from an adjacent gate. Security personnel were setting up a restricted area that could be entered only by TLV pax, which included tables that I assume were for the inspection of carry on bags, as well as screened off private areas that I assume could be used for strip searches.

[Gardyloo]

We have seen preparations for additional screening for a CO flight EWR-TLV. We were at the gate area awaiting a flight, with the TLV-bound flight scheduled to depart from an adjacent gate. Security personnel were setting up a restricted area that could be entered only by TLV pax, which included tables that I assume were for the inspection of carry on bags, as well as screened off private areas that I assume could be used for strip searches.

I'm not particularly familiar with CO's operations at EWR but I'd be willing to bet those additional security measures are put in place by the airline rather than the TSA, just as El Al has tighter security screening at most European airports compared to other airlines'.

[Donray]

I travel to Israel pretty often, and my take is that comparing Israeli or El Al airport/flight security procedures with US procedures is kinda pointless. Apples and hummus.

 

TLV handles around 11 million passengers annually. That's it for the whole country. Except for a tiny number of people arriving at Eilat airport on charters, or an even tinier number arriving by land from Jordan or Egypt, and a handful of cruise passengers, the immigration and security procedures at Ben Gurion, and at various origin airports around the world, comprise the totality of Israeli flight security obligations. By comparison In 2008 there were over 735 million enplanements in the US. There are twenty US airports that handle greater traffic volume than TLV, and hundreds more that have enough traffic - including international arrivals and departures - to justify significant airport security investment. Remember where several of the 9-11 perps boarded planes and went through security... Portland, Maine.

 

Remember too that Israeli security (the government-controlled kind) is primarily focused on outbound passengers. The look-me-in-the-eye stuff happens at the airport entrance (and believe me, it's about as cursory as the same thing you get arriving at Narita airport in Tokyo - i.e., not much) and there are always some questions when you check your bags and check in. One big difference is that your bags are x-rayed in your presence before you go through your own security and before they're tagged. In the US that would represent a humongous traffic jam and would require sweeping re-design of US airports (over taxpayers' dead bodies).

 

But if there's an area of vulnerability in the Israeli setup, it's that pax originating elsewhere are only subjected to the same level of security as everybody else at that originating airport. It's true that El Al uses a higher level of interview/assessment at many airports for pax boarding El Al flights, but lots of other airlines besides El Al fly to Israel. I've never had more- or less-intensive security procedures imposed on me when flying to TLV from London on BA or Madrid on Iberia than I've had when flying someplace else from those airports.

 

I think the US authorities are trying their best to hit the sweet spot between security and freedom of movement. Maybe the pendulum swings a little too far once in a while, but I don't question their intentions. Sure, a higher emphasis on threat deterrence and spotting the would-be terrorist rather than the devices used to terrorize would be a good thing, but the US is a huge and incredibly diverse country, and TSA inspectors are only human. And sure, patting down an old lady or a kid sounds silly and invasive, but recall that some of the Iraqi and Afghani bombers now are young girls. The jihadist mind-set is a remarkable thing.

 

I went through a scanner and pat-down at ORD last week. I lived. You will too.

 

Best response I have read on the scanner situation................

I pointed out what Israel does because people think that Isreal does it right and do not have to search people. There are a lot of idiots out there that think our government just want to feel them up and get there jollies. I sure would not to have search men (being male myself) all day a listen to how I just like feeling there junk. I can imagine a woman patting down another woman and thinking that they might be gay and that they are getting a kick out of being touched by another woman.

These same people that object to the scanner and enhanced pat down would object to national ID card and strip searches if an interrogator do did not like there attitude.

[donaldsc]

Simple solution to the passenger security problem -

 

NUDE AIRLINES AND ABSOLUTELY NO CARRY ON.

 

DON

[njhorseman]

I'm not particularly familiar with CO's operations at EWR but I'd be willing to bet those additional security measures are put in place by the airline rather than the TSA, just as El Al has tighter security screening at most European airports compared to other airlines'.

 

I'm sure it was the airline.

 

My point is that your blanket statement " pax originating elsewhere are only subjected to the same level of security as everybody else at that originating airport" isn't true, as I personally observed the preparations for additional screening of CO pax at EWR. If that is the case for one airline at one airport, perhaps it is also true for at least some other airlines originating at other airports.

[Gardyloo]

I'm sure it was the airline.

 

My point is that your blanket statement " pax originating elsewhere are only subjected to the same level of security as everybody else at that originating airport" isn't true, as I personally observed the preparations for additional screening of CO pax at EWR. If that is the case for one airline at one airport, perhaps it is also true for at least some other airlines originating at other airports.

Yup - minor miscommunication. For sure, airlines have different security procedures past TSA/government intercepts at airports. El Al often runs you through a wringer when you board flights going TO Israel. My statement referred to "official" i.e. government security a la TSA, not something an individual airline might impose post-security.

[vjmatty]

If box-cutters had been banned on 9/11, I think they would have used shoelaces as a garotte on a FA. Or flown first class and broken cocktail glasses to get sharp shards. Or used a ball point pen to the carotid artery or eye. It wasn't the weapon, it was the perpetrator. And we continue to ignore that fact - to our grave peril.

 

Great point..... the weapons on 9/11 were the planes, and unless they have a scanner that can look into a terrorist's brain and see who has learned how to fly a commercial airliner, there is no amount of security measures as we know them today that would have prevented 9/11.

[CruiserBruce]

Great point..... the weapons on 9/11 were the planes, and unless they have a scanner that can look into a terrorist's brain and see who has learned how to fly a commercial airliner, there is no amount of security measures as we know them today that would have prevented 9/11.

 

Funny, since 9/11, literally thousands of box cutters, pocket knives and other similar weapons have been discovered and seized by TSA. And those were what allowed the hijackers to take posession of the planes.

[vjmatty]

Funny, since 9/11, literally thousands of box cutters, pocket knives and other similar weapons have been discovered and seized by TSA. And those were what allowed the hijackers to take posession of the planes.

 

As FT said in his post, the box-cutters were not critical to the operation.... the terrorists could have used any number of items already on the plane or even hand-to-hand combat to overtake the pilots.

 

The best prevention would probably have been sealed cockpits with separate entrances.... which by the way we still don't have.