Muster drill question... Please dont flame me!

[ducklite]

I would also like to see the flags of convenience dine away with. Of course people will howl over the fares rising to cover the higher wages and higher levels of training.

 

I don't think we've had enough major incidents at sea that required abandoning ship on a large vessel to have the empirical data that the computer needs to accurately predict human behavior in that sort of a crisis.

[dsrdsrdsr]

A Canadian plane crashed on take-off a year or two back, and caught fire so that half the exit doors couldn't be used, and yet everybody was off that plane in two minutes.

 

An American plane made a water landing in the Hudson River, and only the doors over the wing were usable; everybody left the plane in good order and all were rescued.

 

People can, and do, behave well in a crisis.

[chengkp75]

I would also like to see the flags of convenience dine away with. Of course people will howl over the fares rising to cover the higher wages and higher levels of training.

 

I don't think we've had enough major incidents at sea that required abandoning ship on a large vessel to have the empirical data that the computer needs to accurately predict human behavior in that sort of a crisis.

 

They don't use just maritime data. They study human behavior in many different crises, and based on interviews, and locations of remains, and back tracing people to where they started from in the emergency, and video data, etc, etc, they get statistical data showing that so many people will wander around aimlessly, so many will become belligerent, etc. There is a science to crowd management, and these statistics are placed in computer models of the ship's structure to determine how many people can pass a given point in a given time, and other required data to determine stair size/quantity/location, number of doors, passageway sizes, virtually every facet of ship design.

[ducklite]

A Canadian plane crashed on take-off a year or two back, and caught fire so that half the exit doors couldn't be used, and yet everybody was off that plane in two minutes.

 

An American plane made a water landing in the Hudson River, and only the doors over the wing were usable; everybody left the plane in good order and all were rescued.

 

People can, and do, behave well in a crisis.

 

 

There are just as many where they didn't. One where many perished because they didn't listen to crew instructions and in their efforts to be first off blocked the exits and many more perished was the Ethiopian Air flight that was hijacked and went into the Indian Ocean. People inflated life jackets causing two problems--first the extra bulk blocked aisles and exits, and then as water began to fill the fuselage, those with the life vests inflated floated to the ceiling and further blocked the ability of those still trying to get off to get air.

[ducklite]

They don't use just maritime data. They study human behavior in many different crises, and based on interviews, and locations of remains, and back tracing people to where they started from in the emergency, and video data, etc, etc, they get statistical data showing that so many people will wander around aimlessly, so many will become belligerent, etc. There is a science to crowd management, and these statistics are placed in computer models of the ship's structure to determine how many people can pass a given point in a given time, and other required data to determine stair size/quantity/location, number of doors, passageway sizes, virtually every facet of ship design.

 

 

A computer is only as smart as the info it's given to work with. The big ships can tout safety all they want, but the logic is that in the case of an extreme emergency at sea, the potential to get everyone off safely goes down with each additional 1000 souls on board.

 

I think we both agree that there are some problems with the current status quo of marine safety.

[chengkp75]

A computer is only as smart as the info it's given to work with. The big ships can tout safety all they want, but the logic is that in the case of an extreme emergency at sea, the potential to get everyone off safely goes down with each additional 1000 souls on board.

 

I think we both agree that there are some problems with the current status quo of marine safety.

 

I don't entirely agree with your first statement, but will say that the situation on a cruise ship is not much different from a high rise office building or a large airliner, any enclosed space where there are lots of people inside. Your example of the cash incentive for airline evacuation; did it result in any changes to aircraft design? I haven't seen any real change in aircraft safety measures in a few decades.

 

I wouldn't say there are problems with marine safety, but I will say that the science is, like all science, evolving, and new rules such as the Safe Return to Port requirements come from the study of incidents (where no loss of life resulted) like the Carnival Splendor fire.

[lizjoemom]

You might drown, but I will not.

 

Further, not all evacuations result in the ship "sinking like a stone".

 

Example, fire. The ship might not sink at all.

 

If you are on a ship with 3,000 to 6,000 people and an emergency happens and no one has a clue of where to go and what to do, think of the mass mayhem.

 

Personally, it does not matter where I am, a hotel, a movie theater, mall, ship, airplane, as soon as I enter, the first thing I do is find the ways out.

 

Same here! Wherever I go, I make sure that I know where the emergency exits are; On a plane, if I'm not sitting in the exit row, I count the rows to the exit, at a hotel, I make sure I know where the emergency stairs and exits are, same on trains and ships (and now in movie theaters!). I don't think it's overkill to take a few minutes out of your time to think about what you and your family would do in case of an emergency. Also, when I am travelling with my kids, we make a plan and a meeting place in case of emergency or if one of them gets lost, we have been doing this since they were very young. Thankfully we have never had to implement any plans and hopefully we never will. I do think that the "that would never happen" attitude is a bad attitude to take, stuff happens all the time, it doesn't necessarily have to be the "ship sinking".

[ducklite]

I don't entirely agree with your first statement, but will say that the situation on a cruise ship is not much different from a high rise office building or a large airliner, any enclosed space where there are lots of people inside. Your example of the cash incentive for airline evacuation; did it result in any changes to aircraft design? I haven't seen any real change in aircraft safety measures in a few decades.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say there are problems with marine safety, but I will say that the science is, like all science, evolving, and new rules such as the Safe Return to Port requirements come from the study of incidents (where no loss of life resulted) like the Carnival Splendor fire.

 

 

What they changed was the pitch in exit row seating, allowing an additional 3-6" (or more). Some have also removed the seat closest to the door on a lot of planes, so exit rows are now B-C or D-E with no A or F respectfully. This provides more room for passengers to get to the exits and for passengers seated in exit rows to assist people out.

 

It might sound crazy, but I try to sit in the same seat on all flights when possible, 2D. The first thing I do after sitting down is pull the seat card to verify the equipment, and then visually look back to make sure that the seat card actually matches the equipment. (I was in a 321 with a 737 seat card once last year.) I can close my eyes and tell you how many rows to the nearest exit behind me from that seat on the 737, 757, 321. On the E170 and E190 I choose seat 2A, and again know the numbers to count if I need to get off in the dark.

[KirkNC]

Based on 132 responses the OP did not get what their title requested :rolleyes:.

[ducklite]

Based on 132 responses the OP did not get what their title requested :rolleyes:.

 

 

I saw only one or two responses where the OP was "flamed."

[Flatbush Flyer]

I would also like to see the flags of convenience dine away with. Of course people will howl over the fares rising to cover the higher wages and higher levels of training.

 

I don't think we've had enough major incidents at sea that required abandoning ship on a large vessel to have the empirical data that the computer needs to accurately predict human behavior in that sort of a crisis.

 

 

"Flags of convenience" can be a very nasty business and all cruise passengers should understand this and other issues impacting maritime safety. Too bad there's not a copy of "The Outlaw Sea" in every stateroom.

 

 

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[navybankerteacher]

"Flags of convenience" can be a very nasty business and all cruise passengers should understand this and other issues impacting maritime safety. Too bad there's not a copy of "The Outlaw Sea" in every stateroom.

 

 

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I'm not inclined to think that doing away with flags of convenience would necessarily result in higher fares due to higher wages and better training. HAL ships are Netherlands flagged and home ported in Rotterdam, yet their fares are comparable to those charged by Bahamas, Bermuda or Malta flagged ships, while Holland certainly boasts a longer and more noted seafaring tradition than the others (possibly excepting Malta, if one considers the traditions of the Knights of St. John).

[BeagleOne]

On the Miracle on the Hudson flight, the front (main) door was also usable. But it is still amazing that few if any people panicked and everyone made it out alive.

[fluffysue]

On Royal Caribbean, at least, they have handheld scanners to scan cards. The muster leaders can see on the scanner who is not there, and will start calling out cabin numbers to double check whether someone forgot to get scanned, or is just not there. So they WILL find out. Don't know whether our no shows got kicked off last time, as eventually we did start without them.

 

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[ducklite]

On the Miracle on the Hudson flight, the front (main) door was also usable. But it is still amazing that few if any people panicked and everyone made it out alive.

 

I think the fact that the plane remained bouyant for over 20 minutes and there was no fire, plus the fact that rescue boats were there within moments kept people calm. Had there been a fire or the plane had begun to take on water quickly, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.

 

I'd also like to point out that there were no children on board, most of the passengers were frequent flyers who flew that route/plane every week, and the flight crew was one of the most experienced in the air--all had 30 years or more experience either in the cockpit or as a flight attendant. Those three factors alone were probably a big part of why the evacuation was so orderly. When you start to put kids in the mix, there is a lot more panic and evacuation takes a lot longer.

[boogs]

On the Miracle on the Hudson flight, the front (main) door was also usable. But it is still amazing that few if any people panicked and everyone made it out alive.

 

Yes, it is amazing. It is a testimony to the skills of the aircraft designer and builders for constructing such a durable aircraft to endure such a landing, to the skills and levelheadedness of the captain and crew, and to the calm and cooperation of the passengers on board. Captain "Sulley" Sullenberger is a local boy, and he is true hero in these parts. That entire incident increased my faith in people's ability to work together in an emergency, unlike one poster on this thread who seems convinced that it will become free-for-all chaos. Even phone videos taken by passengers on the Concordia disaster show that people aren't prone to "mayhem" like he believes.

Edited May 16, 2014 by boogs

[fortinweb]

I think the fact that the plane remained bouyant for over 20 minutes and there was no fire, plus the fact that rescue boats were there within moments kept people calm. Had there been a fire or the plane had begun to take on water quickly, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.

 

I'd also like to point out that there were no children on board, most of the passengers were frequent flyers who flew that route/plane every week, and the flight crew was one of the most experienced in the air--all had 30 years or more experience either in the cockpit or as a flight attendant. Those three factors alone were probably a big part of why the evacuation was so orderly. When you start to put kids in the mix, there is a lot more panic and evacuation takes a lot longer.

 

The plane began to fill up with water immediately. The intact wings kept the plane level in the water allowing everyone evacuated to wait for rescue on those wings. The plane continued to float for hours, so the passengers would have been fully capable of waiting much longer for rescue, as the situation was fortunately not deteriorating at a rapid pace.

 

You are convinced that human nature will always be at it's worse in an emergency. It's too bad you refuse to have more faith in your fellow man. :rolleyes:

[Ethel5]

Yes, it is amazing. It is a testimony to the skills of the aircraft designer and builders for constructing such a durable aircraft to endure such a landing, to the skills and levelheadedness of the captain and crew, and to the calm and cooperation of the passengers on board. Captain "Sulley" Sullenberger is a local boy, and he is true hero in these parts. That entire incident increased my faith in people's ability to work together in an emergency, unlike one poster on this thread who seems convinced that it will become free-for-all chaos. Even phone videos taken by passengers on the Concordia disaster show that people aren't prone to "mayhem" like he believes.

 

Remember too that Sulley was a glider pilot which also contributed to a good water landing.

[LA_CA_GAL]

Had there been a fire or the plane had begun to take on water quickly, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.

 

 

Amazing.:rolleyes:

[BlueRiband]

Before anyone slams me, I am just curious, not intending to do this. Is there a way to avoid muster??...Again, I know its mandatory and was wondering...

 

With over a dozen cruises and 1900 posts here what else were you expecting?:confused:

[LA_CA_GAL]

There are just as many where they didn't. One where many perished because they didn't listen to crew instructions and in their efforts to be first off blocked the exits and many more perished was the Ethiopian Air flight that was hijacked and went into the Indian Ocean. People inflated life jackets causing two problems--first the extra bulk blocked aisles and exits, and then as water began to fill the fuselage, those with the life vests inflated floated to the ceiling and further blocked the ability of those still trying to get off to get air.

 

There was a bit more than inflating life jackets that was responsible for deaths, such as the 767 CRASHED into the ocean and broke apart upon contact.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Seconds prior to contacting the water the aircraft was banked left some ten degrees; the left engine and wingtip struck the water first.

The engine acted as a scoop and struck a coral reef, slowing that side of the aircraft quickly,

causing the Boeing 767 to violently spin left and break apart.

Except for the rear part of the airframe, the broken portions of the fuselage sank rapidly

[navybankerteacher]

There was a bit more than inflating life jackets that was responsible for deaths, such as the 767 CRASHED into the ocean and broke apart upon contact.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Seconds prior to contacting the water the aircraft was banked left some ten degrees; the left engine and wingtip struck the water first.

The engine acted as a scoop and struck a coral reef, slowing that side of the aircraft quickly,

causing the Boeing 767 to violently spin left and break apart.

Except for the rear part of the airframe, the broken portions of the fuselage sank rapidly

 

You make great points, but you are talking with a stone wall.

[boogs]

The plane began to fill up with water immediately. The intact wings kept the plane level in the water allowing everyone evacuated to wait for rescue on those wings. The plane continued to float for hours, so the passengers would have been fully capable of waiting much longer for rescue, as the situation was fortunately not deteriorating at a rapid pace.

 

More facts: the water began pouring in immediately because the under side of the plane was quite torn up, allowing water to enter. Plus, someone inadvertently opened up one of the rear doors allowing even more water to enter. This is why in photos, the rear of the plane is lower than the front. The wings also acted as flotation devices because the fuel tanks located there were full of jet fuel, which is lighter than water. The fuel created enough buoyancy to keep the plane from sinking. When it was retrieved hours later and miles downstream, the plane was still floating, although much lower in the water.

 

This relates well to ship emergencies. In most ship emergencies the ship does not sink. The relatively few that do usually take hours to finally drop under the surface, such as the Oceanos in 1991, which took about 18 hours to sink. There will always be exceptions, of course. But in most cases, virtually all passengers will have plenty of time to evacuate if they aren't trapped in damaged areas of the ship or given improper evacuation orders such as the Concordia disaster. Even that recent South Korean ferry disaster took 2-1/2 hours to sink, although with a large loss of life that is now being blamed on the incompetence of the captain and crew and lax safety rules.

Edited May 16, 2014 by boogs

[floridafish]

We’re all a bit tired and ready to get on with our trip but the muster drill is for everyone’s safety no matter how many cruises you’ve been on.

Minutes can count in an emergency and knowing where to go without having to ask a crew member can save lives including your own.

And yes, the people who show up late make it more of a burden for the rest of us.:rolleyes:

And speaking of the pre flight safety brief….I along with most are guilty of not paying attention. A good friend of mine is an airline pilot and he never tires of lecturing about the importance of knowing where the exits are. Seconds really do count in an airline emergency.

[ducklite]

There was a bit more than inflating life jackets that was responsible for deaths, such as the 767 CRASHED into the ocean and broke apart upon contact.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Seconds prior to contacting the water the aircraft was banked left some ten degrees; the left engine and wingtip struck the water first.

The engine acted as a scoop and struck a coral reef, slowing that side of the aircraft quickly,

causing the Boeing 767 to violently spin left and break apart.

Except for the rear part of the airframe, the broken portions of the fuselage sank rapidly

 

There were some killed on impact, but over half of the mobile survivors (ie those who could get out of their seats) drowned because people didn't follow instructions. I never implied that all would have survived if people had paid attention.