Safety on Carnival... How much do you trust your ship's crew?

[guxu]

I think it is quite a leap to assume that since they supposedly screwed up selling concert merchandise that they will be incompetent in an emergency situation. Emergency procedures are regulated by the US coast guard. Everyone must pass a test. The captain oversees emergency drills. Quite a difference from selling tee shirts or a que in the showroom. I don't think your point is valid. I think you are mad.

Well, someone mentioned Concordia. Based on that captain's performance (before and after the disaster), I am not sure "The captain oversees emergency drills." makes any difference.

[chengkp75]

Just read the USCG report on the Splendor.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg545/docs/documents/CarnivalSplendor.pdf

 

Bridge Officer reset the alarms so they automatic fire surpresion system would not discharge. This probably would have stopped the fire.

I did cut and paste between log entries but please read for yourself, I found it interesting reading on the errors made but I still sail Carnival.

 

DG is Diesel Generator

At 0601, two fire/smoke detectors above DG5 and DG6 were activated. Within seconds of activation of these detectors, a bridge watch officer performed a general reset of the fire detection system. As a result of this action, all fire/smoke detectors returned to a normal status

.

By 0603, the fire and smoke detectors above DG5 and DG6 were in a fault status. As a result, the Hi-Fog system for local protection was not automatically triggered by the fire detection system.

 

...

However,

activation of the Hi-Fog system in the vicinity of the DG5 and DG6 did not occur until 0615.

 

As I said in a previous post, there are things in each of the incident reports I mentioned that went right, and things that did not go right. I don't believe that in any accident or incident that 100% goes right. There are always lessons to be learned, even if it just by one particular participant rather than an institutional problem needing correction.

 

Yes, the actions of the bridge officer was a major causative reason for the severity of the damage to the Splendor. Has the lack of familiarization with the system on the part of this one individual led to a corporate change in training policy? You bet it has, since the classification society has to act on the recommendations in all such incident reports, and would require specific language regarding this particular area of training in upgrades to the company's Safety Management System. There were other systemic problems with fire fighting training that have been addressed since the Splendor, which did not, unfortunately, prevent a similar outcome for the Triumph, but from different causative factors.

[sandij]

I have to admit that sometimes the people selected to run the muster drills are seemingly young and unable to handle large crowds. But those crowds are usually the problem themselves. I remember being on a cruise a couple weeks after the Concordia incident and while at muster drill people were drinking, talking on their phones and generally not paying attention. I thought to myself that if you added panic into the situation it would be life threatening. So the cruise passengers are as much to blame as the inexperienced cruise employees. I know you paid big bucks for your vacation time but it's only a short amount of time that they ask you to pay attention and learn something, even if you've done it many times before.

[loxley]

I have to admit that sometimes the people selected to run the muster drills are seemingly young and unable to handle large crowds. But those crowds are usually the problem themselves. I remember being on a cruise a couple weeks after the Concordia incident and while at muster drill people were drinking, talking on their phones and generally not paying attention. I thought to myself that if you added panic into the situation it would be life threatening. So the cruise passengers are as much to blame as the inexperienced cruise employees. I know you paid big bucks for your vacation time but it's only a short amount of time that they ask you to pay attention and learn something, even if you've done it many times before.

Can you tell me something you learned?

 

I already know how to put in a life jacket having grown up at a lake.

 

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[chengkp75]

Can you tell me something you learned?

 

I already know how to put in a life jacket having grown up at a lake.

 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

Do you use SOLAS type I lifejackets on your lake? I know that I don't, and I've been going to sea for 40 years. There is a huge difference between type I and type II (the most common recreational PFD) lifejacket. I do know how to put a type I jacket on, but you'd be amazed at how many people I've had to instruct on how to don one so that they are not turned face down in the water by the jacket.

 

Personally, I've done weekly fire and boat drills for 40 years, and continue to learn new things.

[loxley]

Do you use SOLAS type I lifejackets on your lake? I know that I don't, and I've been going to sea for 40 years. There is a huge difference between type I and type II (the most common recreational PFD) lifejacket. I do know how to put a type I jacket on, but you'd be amazed at how many people I've had to instruct on how to don one so that they are not turned face down in the water by the jacket.

 

Personally, I've done weekly fire and boat drills for 40 years, and continue to learn new things.

Yeah, can you tell me something you have learned recently?

 

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[loxley]

And oh yeah, I certainly know how to put a life jacket over my head, wrap the strap around my waist and buckle it.

 

Anyone with any intelligence should be able to look at the thing and be able to figure it out.

 

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[paluni]

In regard to your question about how other lines do muster, I can speak for Princess, having been on seven cruises with them. I was surprised to read how chaotic your Carnival cruise was in general. I think Princess has great boarding and disembarking, quick, well organized. It may also be the type of passengers they get who are older and better behaved themselves, so they're easier to work with. It helps when people generally follow the rules.

The muster is strictly given, usually in restaurants, with a visible crew in the line of sight of every group of passengers. But I have wondered, I know we're supposed to go to the muster station/restaurant/theater in an emergency, but the instinct is to be outside at those lifeboats!

I've heard the comedians joke along the lines of, "In an emergency, I'm not going to the theater!"

But the Princess crew seem well trained. I still will try and think for myself and not "go to my cabin" if I'm in a Concordia situation.

Fortunately, this will probably never happen.

That being said, I kind of expect a mega-disaster someday with one of the giant ships. And it seems like it's just not going to work well.

[chengkp75]

Yeah, can you tell me something you have learned recently?

 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

Sure, I learned recently how to reset the "man down" motion alarm that was recently added to our SCBA's. Our companies fire fighting procedures for various spaces were updated. Safety procedures and training are always changing.

[winddawn]

I am hesitant to post this because the diehard Carnival fans are going to burn my post with their flames, but I must ask if anyone else shares my view.

 

We all know that the ship crew routinely practices for response to different emergency situations. I suppose this is so that everything will come to them as second nature in the event of a true emergency. But, they really don't seem to have a good grasp on directing passengers when it comes to actual activities that actually occur regularly.

 

I just returned from my 3rd cruise. This was onboard Paradise, which sails 4 and 5 day itineraries year round. By my estimation, they have port days 3 days out of every 9, for a total of around 120 days a year. They debark passengers every 4 to 5 days, for a total of around 80 days a year.

 

On the Grand Cayman port day, we had excursion tickets that told us to meet in the theater. Our cabin was on deck 4. We walked by the crew on deck 4 that was directing passengers to the tender. They were telling everyone to report to the location listed on the excursion tickets. So, we reported to the lounge. After hanging out in the lounge, a crew member came out and asked why we were there, because he had already told passengers to leave the lounge and go see the crew on deck 4. I explained to him that the crews on deck 4 told us to go up there. He just shook his head and told us to take the tender and look for a sign that matched our excursion ticket whenever we made it to shore. Please remember, they visit this port once every 9 days, but they still somehow have crews giving contradictory information and directions (and the shore excursion tickets are apparently wrong, too). I don't normally book shore excursions through the ship, but fellow passengers told me that this running around in circles is not out of the ordinary.

 

Debarkation was a mess. It has been on all 3 of my cruises. Every crew member tells you to head a different direction. They have no idea how to help any passenger, and just direct you to a different crew member. I witnessed a lady (who had been waiting on deck 9 that then went to the lounge and was sent to deck 7) being told to head back to deck 9 or look for the crew member in the lounge by the crew member working the deck 7 ropes. She kept telling him that she had already been sent those places, and that they sent her down and told her to ask someone on deck 7 (which she was doing). A fellow passenger ended up helping her with what she needed. So, an activity that the crew actually performs 120 times a year, results in crews giving contradictory information and having passengers running around in circles.

 

This cruise happened to also have the Heart concert. While in line for the concert, a large group cut line. One of the crew members made half of the group go back to where they were supposed to be. When passengers pointed out the rest of the group, the crew member just shrugged his shoulders and turned his back to the complaining passengers. This same crew member was a member working at my muster station. So, he can't control a line (and we all know how many lines are on cruise ships), but he is entrusted to work a muster station.

 

Also, after the concert, an announcement was made that Heart merchandise would be for sale at the Fun Shops. After the crowds cleared, we went up to check out the merchandise. The shops were closed, and a crew member told us that they could not sell the merchandise while in port and to check the shops the next day. The next day, we checked the shops. They had no idea what we were talking about and had not seen any Heart merchandise. They directed us to Guest Services. Guest Services did not know anything about Heart merchandise, either. So, even though the ship's sell thousands of dollars in merchandise each sailing, they manage to have passengers running around in circles to buy imaginary merchandise.

 

After each one of these events, I would turn to my husband and express the worry that I had about this same crew being in charge of our safety and lives during an emergency. I just can't see that they could ever get control over an emergency situation that they have merely practiced for, when they cannot get control of everyday situations that they have carried out dozens of times a year. And, this sentiment applies to all 3 of the ships that I have sailed on.

 

Am I the only one convinced that any emergency training of the crew will be overpowered by lack of crowd control, poor communication amongst members of the crew, and panic despite their best efforts to practice?

I'm sorry you have a negative perception of Carnival team members. Please read this thread I started about Carnival staff. Hopefully it will change your mind. I happen to believe that Carnival staff is totally committed to their passengers in every sense of the word, including passenger well-being, safety, and comfort. I've cruised over 30 times on Carnival. Have I encountered rude passengers? Heck, yea! Have I encountered less than perfect circumstances? Heck, yea! But to me that is part of the beauty of cruising experiences. Each cruise offers an opportunity for unique experiences with unique passengers and crew members. I treasure each cruise experience as a special memory!

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2155601

 

Best wishes for future happy times onboard your next Carnival cruise! I hope you find vacation experiences that bring you joy too!

[honestguy]

In a true life and death emergency, I figure it's each man for himself. I will try to locate my family so we could stick together and then make the decision to do what we had to do. If it was true survival it would be at all costs. Sorry to all of you reading this but I would not give a flying leap about anyone else but my family. And this is one of the reasons I like to book an upper deck, such as 11 or 12, towards the front. I figure if there's true emergency, it is going to be associated with the engine room or fuel storage. I want to be as far away as I can. And having a balcony room gives me at least a 50% chance that if the ship lists to one side or the other we won't be trapped like that Poseidon Adventure movie. And being near the front really a few steps away from those hidden decks, I figure if we have our life jackets I like our chances to initially escape. I would think there would be a lot of floating debris around that we could also latch onto. I share the OP's concerns about Gopher and Isaac keeping the masses under control if disaster was to strike.

 

Boy you got it all thought out don't you. You are the exact type of person that would cause mayhem if there was a real emergency. Your thinking about floating debris, but yet you have no idea, that the ship has enough life rafts(not the boats) to carry everyone, and in the event the ship sank in a few minutes(yes this is entirely possible) those rafts once submerged will deploy and release to the surface

[navyvet8395]

I don't trust security on any ship. I don't think they're qualified to take certain conditions under control like riots and fighting. I saw one youtube video of a skinny little woman in a bikini drunk, who practically drowned a security officer. She was like a wet slippery seal sliding out of their reach. She jumped on the back of one of them and held him under! So, no, I don't trust the crew in situations like that. Maybe in the loss of engine power or a fire, they know what to do.

 

All the guy had to do was "stand up".. the pools arent that deep... LOL. Expecially with a "small" female on his back.

[navyvet8395]

In regard to your question about how other lines do muster, I can speak for Princess, having been on seven cruises with them. I was surprised to read how chaotic your Carnival cruise was in general. I think Princess has great boarding and disembarking, quick, well organized. It may also be the type of passengers they get who are older and better behaved themselves, so they're easier to work with. It helps when people generally follow the rules.

The muster is strictly given, usually in restaurants, with a visible crew in the line of sight of every group of passengers. But I have wondered, I know we're supposed to go to the muster station/restaurant/theater in an emergency, but the instinct is to be outside at those lifeboats!

I've heard the comedians joke along the lines of, "In an emergency, I'm not going to the theater!"

But the Princess crew seem well trained. I still will try and think for myself and not "go to my cabin" if I'm in a Concordia situation.

Fortunately, this will probably never happen.

That being said, I kind of expect a mega-disaster someday with one of the giant ships. And it seems like it's just not going to work well.

 

True, but not all emergencys require a "lifeboat". In the case of the Costa Incident, If I notice that the ship is leaning over greatly for a long period of time and not righting itself like going over a wave or making a maneaver, etc. I will be out in open on a top deck where I wont be in a trapped situation.

 

All my cruises are in the Caribbean, I know the sea water isnt "freezing" or to cold to cause death. Plus your in a busy shipping area and tons of ships are not to far away. Now cruise ships travel in pairs. So if you end up having to "jump ship" due to capsizing or sinking just hold on till you get near the water and with life jacket on or any other floating debris around.. Yes there will be plenty, just wait till you get picked up. No fighting with the Mobs trying to get into a lifeboat like the titanic days.. Because you know people are going to act that way even today with modern techology...

[Badfinger]

Boy you got it all thought out don't you. You are the exact type of person that would cause mayhem if there was a real emergency. Your thinking about floating debris, but yet you have no idea, that the ship has enough life rafts(not the boats) to carry everyone, and in the event the ship sank in a few minutes(yes this is entirely possible) those rafts once submerged will deploy and release to the surface

 

Honestly Guy, I do have it all thought out...and my thinking parallels that of navy vet above (get it..Navy Vet). Don't get trapped. Get to daylight. And grab onto something that is floating.

 

Yeah the life boats may have capacity to hold everybody...but no way do I assume that all the passengers will distribute themselves evenly among the boats so everyone has a seat. Chances are some lifeboats will "set sail" from the ship less than full, and other boats will be overwhelmed by crush of people all trying to get on the nearest life boat. Assume you are in the front of the ship and your muster station is in the rear...and there is an abandon ship. Are you going fight your way back to you muster station? Regardless of how you may answer that question here, I know in reality the answer is no...you will be looking for the nearest lifeboat...as will everyone else .

 

I pray to God that I am never proven correct.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Badfinger

[chengkp75]

True, but not all emergencys require a "lifeboat". In the case of the Costa Incident, If I notice that the ship is leaning over greatly for a long period of time and not righting itself like going over a wave or making a maneaver, etc. I will be out in open on a top deck where I wont be in a trapped situation.

 

All my cruises are in the Caribbean, I know the sea water isnt "freezing" or to cold to cause death. Plus your in a busy shipping area and tons of ships are not to far away. Now cruise ships travel in pairs. So if you end up having to "jump ship" due to capsizing or sinking just hold on till you get near the water and with life jacket on or any other floating debris around.. Yes there will be plenty, just wait till you get picked up. No fighting with the Mobs trying to get into a lifeboat like the titanic days.. Because you know people are going to act that way even today with modern techology...

 

Couple of disagreements here. One, "cruise ships travel in pairs"? Really? And you need to look at the "Not Enough Lifeboats" thread for comments from myself and USCG officers regarding whether or not merchant ships are suitable for rescuing large numbers of survivors, and whether folks would be left in boats until suitable, trained rescue assets arrive. So, if you decide to get into the water, plan on being in there for a while.

 

Second, even 80* water, as in the Caribbean, can cause death by hypothermia within 3 hours of immersion, depending on health and clothing. Loss of dexterity (for climbing the rope ladders to a rescue ship) happens within 1-2 hours at that water temperature.

 

And as you point out, not all emergencies require a lifeboat, but as I write below for the other poster, if you are wandering around on open decks "to not get trapped", you may be directly over a fire, or you may wander into one, and crew will be sent to find you, taking them away from their assigned duties.

 

Honestly Guy, I do have it all thought out...and my thinking parallels that of navy vet above (get it..Navy Vet). Don't get trapped. Get to daylight. And grab onto something that is floating.

 

Yeah the life boats may have capacity to hold everybody...but no way do I assume that all the passengers will distribute themselves evenly among the boats so everyone has a seat. Chances are some lifeboats will "set sail" from the ship less than full, and other boats will be overwhelmed by crush of people all trying to get on the nearest life boat. Assume you are in the front of the ship and your muster station is in the rear...and there is an abandon ship. Are you going fight your way back to you muster station? Regardless of how you may answer that question here, I know in reality the answer is no...you will be looking for the nearest lifeboat...as will everyone else .

 

I pray to God that I am never proven correct.

 

You also fall into the category that assumes that you will go directly from a muster to the boats. With the notable exception of the Concordia (and you can see my posts regarding that over on the Costa forum), the muster announcement/alarm should be done long before there is any decision or reason to consider abandoning the ship. This is to "herd" the passengers into known areas and to provide accountability. If you are roaming the top decks, looking for ways off the ship, you will not only place yourself in additional danger, but also the crew who will be sent to find you.

 

As I've posted many times on CC, what passengers think of as the "abandon ship" signal (more than six short blasts followed by one long blast) is in fact the "fire and general emergency" signal. Only after all crew are in locations as specified by the station bill, and all guests are accounted for at their muster stations, would the Captain consider abandoning ship, if he feels that the information from the on-scene commander warrants getting the passengers off the ship. This is still not "abandon ship". Even if the passengers are loaded into the lifeboats, and the boats lowered and away, the crew (with the exception of the 2-3 assigned to each boat) will still be at their emergency stations, until the "abandon ship" signal is given (one prolonged blast). At that time, they will move to their abandon ship stations and take to the liferafts.

 

Not taking away from navyvet, but I've been doing this for 40 years, and been trained in handling large numbers of people in emergency situations.

[bobsfamily]

I don't trust security on any ship. I don't think they're qualified to take certain conditions under control like riots and fighting. I saw one youtube video of a skinny little woman in a bikini drunk, who practically drowned a security officer. She was like a wet slippery seal sliding out of their reach. She jumped on the back of one of them and held him under! So, no, I don't trust the crew in situations like that. Maybe in the loss of engine power or a fire, they know what to do.

In another life I was a lifeguard and then taught lifeguards... you NEVER get close enough to a drowning person to let them touch you in front. You always sneak up on them from the back and get them in a headlock, just for that exact reason. If someone is going to drown it's not going to be me! Best bet is let them grab onto a ring or life vest, not YOU!

 

I have seen the hilarity that goes on at a muster drill and I have seen one that was for the Coast Guard inspection. The friendly cabin steward and bartender suddenly become very serious and no talking, drinking, etc goes on. You get some respect for them real quick and realize what is going on. I saw one drunk go sober in about 30 seconds after a very quick (and quiet I might add) "conversation". We stood in rows for about 20 minutes and it was HOT. A couple of people almost passed out but there was not sympathy and we heard all the bells, saw the lifeboats pulled away (not lowered though). Afterwards we were told it was an annual drill and "very sorry". All crewmembers went back to nice people but you did keep in the back of your mind what you just saw. Still remember it, and that was over 10 years ago.

[Smart Arsenal Fan]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. In the situations you are describing, the crew is trying to manage passengers without being bossy and offending the delicate sensibilities of many of the guests. In an emergency, they will issue orders. They would also be getting strong directives from officers who won't be inclined to coddle guests.

 

Bravo.

[evandbob]

Is it true that if you jump into the water with a life jacket on you have to hold it down so the impact doesn't snap one's neck?

 

I've heard that's how many people on the Titanic died. Cruise line fiction or fact? Never heard it discussed in a muster drill.

[skylock]

Is it true that if you jump into the water with a life jacket on you have to hold it down so the impact doesn't snap one's neck?

 

I've heard that's how many people on the Titanic died. Cruise line fiction or fact? Never heard it discussed in a muster drill.

As I have said before, they give no information during those drills. Everyone that claims they do when asked what it was they learned can never give even one example. The only thing I have really seen someone claim they learned was how to put on the life jacket. Beyond that bit, NOTHING.

 

I have no idea if it could snap your neck, but if myth busters tested it, I bet it would come back as plausible.

 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[jimbo5544]

As I have said before, they give no information during those drills. Everyone that claims they do when asked what it was they learned can never give even one example. The only thing I have really seen someone claim they learned was how to put on the life jacket. Beyond that bit, NOTHING.

 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

Do you learn where to go, what the process will be, which life boat/raft you belong in? I always do.

[jimbo5544]

Is it true that if you jump into the water with a life jacket on you have to hold it down so the impact doesn't snap one's neck?

 

I've heard that's how many people on the Titanic died. Cruise line fiction or fact? Never heard it discussed in a muster drill.

 

I know you can survive, on our first Magic cruise, the last evening on the sailing a crew member (intoxicated,) jumped off Lido with a life vest on and survived. The actually got him out of the water, he was arrested and taken off in a stretcher handcuffed the next morning in Galveston.

Edited November 5, 2015 by jimbo5544

[chengkp75]

Is it true that if you jump into the water with a life jacket on you have to hold it down so the impact doesn't snap one's neck?

 

I've heard that's how many people on the Titanic died. Cruise line fiction or fact? Never heard it discussed in a muster drill.

 

This is a fact. One should never jump into the water from very much height, but if you have to:

 

One hand holds the front of neck hole down, one hand pinches the nose, and especially for gentlemen, cross your ankles, or the family jewels will become the family jowls.

 

The type I lifejackets required at sea are designed to turn an unconscious person face up, so there is a lot of flotation on the front of the jacket, and when this hits the water, it wants to float more than you do.

 

As competitive divers will tell you, hitting the water from the 10 meter tower, in the wrong attitude, is like hitting a concrete wall.

 

The reason you don't get any more information than how to don a lifejacket, and where to muster (since you got there), and some lines go over the smoking policies and areas, is because there is nothing else you are supposed to do. As I've said, the muster is not only for getting into lifeboats, it's main reason is to provide accountability and safe placement of people who will not be dealing with the emergency, whatever the nature. Some folks say they should practice loading people into the boats. This is an inherently dangerous task, especially with elderly or infirm guests, and should only be done when necessary. This is like thinking that everyone should have an airbag inflate in their face, just so they know what its like, or that everyone who flies should practice sliding down the evacuation chutes.

[evandbob]

This is a fact. One should never jump into the water from very much height, but if you have to:

 

One hand holds the front of neck hole down, one hand pinches the nose, and especially for gentlemen, cross your ankles, or the family jewels will become the family jowls.

 

The type I lifejackets required at sea are designed to turn an unconscious person face up, so there is a lot of flotation on the front of the jacket, and when this hits the water, it wants to float more than you do.

 

As competitive divers will tell you, hitting the water from the 10 meter tower, in the wrong attitude, is like hitting a concrete wall.

 

The reason you don't get any more information than how to don a lifejacket, and where to muster (since you got there), and some lines go over the smoking policies and areas, is because there is nothing else you are supposed to do. As I've said, the muster is not only for getting into lifeboats, it's main reason is to provide accountability and safe placement of people who will not be dealing with the emergency, whatever the nature. Some folks say they should practice loading people into the boats. This is an inherently dangerous task, especially with elderly or infirm guests, and should only be done when necessary. This is like thinking that everyone should have an airbag inflate in their face, just so they know what its like, or that everyone who flies should practice sliding down the evacuation chutes.

 

Always excellent to have a reasoned logical explanation, thanks for anwering my query.

[4mysins]

I can tell you from personal experience, its not just Carnival. I have had similar experiences on Royal Caribbean and Carnival. With Royal Caribbean, we were unaware of the "tender tickets" and by the time we stood in line to get them, they were in the 60's. We had a private tour scheduled first thing in the morning but were not "scheduled" to leave the boat till 10:30-11:00.

 

Even on departure of our last Carnival Cruise, we were sent back and forth between the front of the ship to the back and then up and down stairs with all of our luggage. Misinformation being told to masses of people and no one really knew what was going on. We even had to pled for a disabled member of the family to be able to take the elevators since they couldn't go downstairs. After 45 minutes of completing our trek across the ship we made it off.

 

Somewhere with the cruise lines, I think there is a start of a huge disconnect which really makes chaos for many people. Hopefully, they can get it tightened up soon.

[SadieN]

This is a fact. One should never jump into the water from very much height, but if you have to:

 

 

 

One hand holds the front of neck hole down, one hand pinches the nose, and especially for gentlemen, cross your ankles, or the family jewels will become the family jowls.

 

 

 

 

.............

 

 

Princess demonstrates this every muster. They also say not to jump, but to 'step' off.

Edited November 5, 2015 by SadieN