Safety on Carnival... How much do you trust your ship's crew?

[Pyrate13]

As a first responder, yes, I understand communication is important. But There is no comparison between the situations you encountered and a real emergency.

 

Oh well, it appears you will not be content unless everyone agrees with your opinion, which you are absolutely entitled to, but with which it appears many do not. Enjoy your future cruises.

[firemanbobswife]

In fact, I have always wondered why we are not actually lowered onto the water inside the life boats during the drill. We should be. Goodness knows we are allowed on the ship early enough. We would be sure: 1. There are enough boats for everyone, and, 2. The life boats are mechanically sound. There is nothing wrong with you and I hope I am near you on a ship if, God forbid, anything tragic happens.

 

 

You do realize that there is a real danger in the process of lowering and raising the lifeboats, right?! A crew member was killed last year. http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=6051

 

No way in h-e-double hockey sticks would I EVER get into a lifeboat with the public for a drill. First of all I am extremely claustrophobic. Second of all, it would take forever! Not to mention things could go really bad.

 

Are you seriously going to put the whole entire freaking ship in lifeboats, lower them down and back up again? That's crazy.

 

They know everyone will fit based on how many seats there are vs passengers and they test them periodically. I'll leave it up to Carnival to deem them safe. You're nuts if you want to be the Guinea Pig!

[Donray]

in a true life and death emergency, i figure it's each man for himself. I will try to locate my family so we could stick together and then make the decision to do what we had to do. If it was true survival it would be at all costs. Sorry to all of you reading this but i would not give a flying leap about anyone else but my family. And this is one of the reasons i like to book an upper deck, such as 11 or 12, towards the front. I figure if there's true emergency, it is going to be associated with the engine room or fuel storage. I want to be as far away as i can. And having a balcony room gives me at least a 50% chance that if the ship lists to one side or the other we won't be trapped like that poseidon adventure movie. And being near the front really a few steps away from those hidden decks, i figure if we have our life jackets i like our chances to initially escape. I would think there would be a lot of floating debris around that we could also latch onto. I share the op's concerns about gopher and isaac keeping the masses under control if disaster was to strike.

 

this is the problem with trying to respond to emergencies. People don't want to listen and do what they want.

[chengkp75]

I agree with you that I think most Captains (and most people) will do what is right when an emergency comes. But I have more faith in the human spirit than some do. :)

 

As to checking the licensing, I believe it's under US Coast Guard SOLAS regulations (someone said that ships of US Registry are regulated by the US Coast Guard and another person pointed out cruise ships almost uniformly have foreign registries BUT to operate in US waters at all - which most do at some point - the ships must meet SOLAS regs, which include things like proper emergency drills, crew member competency and licensing, and appropriate equipment. They are checked quarterly. Receiving the licensing? I have no idea how many different groups can provide licensing, but I know SOLAS regs allow the US Coast Guard to "test" said competency. Not sure how they would ever tell who "manned" the lifeboat in the thick of it.

 

ALL SHIPS must meet SOLAS requirements, and the USCG, as "port state" (country where ship is docked, as opposed to "flag state") cannot enforce their more stringent regulations (see previous post) on foreign ships, only determine that SOLAS requirements are met.

 

As to actually manning the boats, as posted above, only the 2 or 3 crew assigned to the boat would be in it. The officers and crew are assigned to liferafts, and are only called to abandon ship stations after the boats are away.

[chengkp75]

No, you are NOT mad. And those passengers who have a laissez-faire attitude about safety are fools. I repeat, absolute bloody FOOLS. In fact, I have always wondered why we are not actually lowered onto the water inside the life boats during the drill. We should be. Goodness knows we are allowed on the ship early enough. We would be sure: 1. There are enough boats for everyone, and, 2. The life boats are mechanically sound. There is nothing wrong with you and I hope I am near you on a ship if, God forbid, anything tragic happens.

 

As for their being enough boats for everyone, if you don't believe the regulatory bodies, you really won't like the seating arrangement in the boat, where you are jammed in shoulder to shoulder.

 

As for lowering a fully loaded boat each week, even when the crew lower the boats in their weekly drill, it is with the minimum people inside. One of the most dangerous jobs on a ship is recovering a lifeboat. Lifeboats are primarily designed to go one way, one time. This is made as safe and easy as possible. Other actions with the boat, like raising it back up, are secondary, so are not as easy or safe. While lifeboats are designed to be able to be hoisted when fully loaded, and are tested to 125% every 5 years, this is done with deadweighf, not personnel, for safety reasons.

[Babycat]

The crew could be exceedingly great at what they do but it would all be for nothing without the sufficient cooperation of the cruisers.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Babycat

[elliair]

The crew could be exceedingly great at what they do but it would all be for nothing without the sufficient cooperation of the cruisers.

 

There's people on board who can't follow simple hygiene rules, understand English, etiquette, common sense, and they talk or are looking at their cell phones all during the muster drill and not paying attention. These are the ones who will not follow instructions and will be left behind. First thing we look for when staying in a hotel, is the escape route and same on a ship. We live in earthquake country, it's drilled into our heads to be prepared. Beans, bullets and bandaids.

[Tapi]

I notice your signature is fabulously full of past cruises. Several of those are on fantasy class ships, which are widely seen as booze cruises. So, on all cruises, but especially the booze cruises, how confident were you in your fellow thousands of passengers? Do you feel like you would have to look very far to find that "one idiot who didn't pay attention", because I picked out dozens of them in my muster?

 

 

Although there's a handful of people that may fall in the "idiot" category, it's not them who the focus is when it comes to emergency procedures. At least in my line of work, crew members are trained to pinpoint those passengers who will be able to assist them in case of a real emergency, long before it actually happens. And this is happening without no one else realizing it.

 

As mentioned before, there are too many variables involved in a real emergency. But the best that we can do is to have confidence in the common sense of the vast majority of passengers. Furthermore, that between the training and effort of the crew members, assisted by those passengers able and willing to go that extra mile, that the negative impact of those "idiot" passengers can be minimized as much as possible. [emoji4]

[chengkp75]

Although there's a handful of people that may fall in the "idiot" category, it's not them who the focus is when it comes to emergency procedures. At least in my line of work, crew members are trained to pinpoint those passengers who will be able to assist them in case of a real emergency, long before it actually happens. And this is happening without no one else realizing it.

 

As mentioned before, there are too many variables involved in a real emergency. But the best that we can do is to have confidence in the common sense of the vast majority of passengers. Furthermore, that between the training and effort of the crew members, assisted by those passengers able and willing to go that extra mile, that the negative impact of those "idiot" passengers can be minimized as much as possible. [emoji4]

 

Yes, crowd management breaks people into leaders, followers, and sheep. The emphasis is to identify the leaders to help the crew with the rest.

[HLGW60]

Did you report your concerns on the Carnival survey that is usually sent to you after your cruise is over? Did you address it with Guest Services on the ship? If they get enough complaints, then they will be more likely to correct deficiencies.

 

BOTTOM LINE for me: If you don't feel safe cruising with Carnival then just don't use them. It is simple as that. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own safety and if you lack trust in Carnival then there are other cruise lines to choose from.....or maybe you would feel safer just not cruising at all.

[Lil2Angelic]

Curious.."Am I the only one convinced that any emergency training of the crew will be overpowered by lack of crowd control, poor communication amongst members of the crew, and panic despite their best efforts to practice?"

 

 

I'm not really sure that I can answer "yes" or "no" to your question but after reading through all the replies I can say that I have to agree with those that are saying that the situation's you're describing are different than an emergency situation "in my experience".

 

 

 

Here's my take on it..We were on the Spirit in April of 2012. It was a 15 day Hawaii cruise. Ironically, we embarked on Friday the 13th and this cruise just happened to be sailing during the 100th Anniversary of Titanic sinking. We had just past the "point of no return" when this happened..

 

Link to C.C. article..

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=4803

 

 

Here are a couple links from youtube of the rescue by our brave crew who risked their lives..the rescue boat almost capsized as it was lowered into the water..

 

 

 

and here's the youtube link to the video of our crew bring the man back..

 

 

 

You cannot hear how loud the applause were on the ship from all the crew and passengers.

 

I totally get what you are saying. After this experience though I have to say I do have a huge amount of respect for the ship's crew. These guys risked their lives to save a man who at the time did not want to be saved. Our crew ROCKED! As far as the passengers onboard, when we were asked by the Captain to go out on deck because they needed everyone's eyes to look for this man. Well, I have to say I was extremely impressed by what I witnessed. It was a surreal experience that to this day brings tears to my eyes, especially when I watch the videos. The way I feel when I embark on a ship now is that we are all pretty much a family that is embarking on an adventure at sea and if something happens we are for the most part on our own at least until help can get there.

 

 

I don't know if I answered your question directly but I hope you get the drift. I do trust and respect the ship crews more than ever after this incident. I do believe in an emergency that the crew would risk their lives for us. I can't say that for all the passengers as I know their will always be an idiot no matter where you go and it only takes one. Hope this helps!

 

Here's the link to the C.C. thread on this topic/story..

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1616321

 

Oh, and one other note..On this same cruise we had to return to Hawaii for a medical evac and again our crew ROCKED!

Edited October 24, 2015 by Lil2Angelic

[Who Cares?]

Am I the only one convinced that any emergency training of the crew will be overpowered by lack of crowd control, poor communication amongst members of the crew, and panic despite their best efforts to practice?

 

Yes.

[DreadPirateRobert]

lQuite frankly I would be far more scared of the panic and selfish actions of my fellow passengers than any lack of ability of the crew. How many people come on here and brag about ducking muster drill. How many people really pay attention to exits, muster stations etc?

How many get on here and wail about how the entire ship didn't conform to their every whim. Can you imagine these self important over indulged people in an emergency? I shudder to think how things would really be if an emergency happened in the middle of the night. It's dark, people are suddenly awakened from sleep or are too drunk to make rational decisions.

Compared to that, any perceived lack of ability by the crew pales in comparison. All that being said, I can't wait for my next cruise....😉

[ASchaff]

The problem is that regardless of the amount of training, until an individual faces the "beast", whether fire or abandoning ship, no one really knows whether they have it in themselves to run TOWARDS the fire. Fortunately, and unfortunately, marine emergencies are infequent enough that crew are not called on to act in an emergency, but also can go an entire career without finding out whether or not they have the right stuff. I'm sure that military, pilots, police, firefighters and EMTs will agree with me.

 

I was reading through, trying to see if someone else was going to bring this up. I have been in the fire service/EMS for more than 10 years(which is a lot for my age). I have seen all kinds of people come through, and have trained all kinds of people. I was fortunate enough to be in a volunteer service, where I saw many of those that I trained, first hand in the field. Some people excel in training, and cannot handle the pressure of a real situation, and some people are terrible in calm situations, or non-life threatening situations, but would be the person I wanted to see in a real emergency. You cannot judge how someone will be, in an emergency, until you see them in one, unfortunately.

 

I always like to use the example of a car accident. You see people directing traffic for a department, and they are doing a horrible job. They cannot seem to keep traffic doing what they want it to, and think they would be horrible if you actually needed them to save your life. In reality, they are going to be much more efficient and skilled in saving your life, because that is their primary job. Directing traffic, is just something they are stuck doing, when they aren't saving someone.

[clearwaters]

As for their being enough boats for everyone, if you don't believe the regulatory bodies, you really won't like the seating arrangement in the boat, where you are jammed in shoulder to shoulder.

 

As for lowering a fully loaded boat each week, even when the crew lower the boats in their weekly drill, it is with the minimum people inside. One of the most dangerous jobs on a ship is recovering a lifeboat. Lifeboats are primarily designed to go one way, one time. This is made as safe and easy as possible. Other actions with the boat, like raising it back up, are secondary, so are not as easy or safe. While lifeboats are designed to be able to be hoisted when fully loaded, and are tested to 125% every 5 years, this is done with deadweighf, not personnel, for safety reasons.

 

Thank you, your response makes a lot of sense. I did not know dealing with lifeboats was actually unsafe. And it makes perfectly good sense they are intended to be lowered with passengers inside, and are not intended to be raised.

[clearwaters]

Curious.."Am I the only one convinced that any emergency training of the crew will be overpowered by lack of crowd control, poor communication amongst members of the crew, and panic despite their best efforts to practice?"

 

 

I'm not really sure that I can answer "yes" or "no" to your question but after reading through all the replies I can say that I have to agree with those that are saying that the situation's you're describing are different than an emergency situation "in my experience".

 

 

 

Here's my take on it..We were on the Spirit in April of 2012. It was a 15 day Hawaii cruise. Ironically, we embarked on Friday the 13th and this cruise just happened to be sailing during the 100th Anniversary of Titanic sinking. We had just past the "point of no return" when this happened..

 

Link to C.C. article..

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=4803

 

 

Here are a couple links from youtube of the rescue by our brave crew who risked their lives..the rescue boat almost capsized as it was lowered into the water..

 

 

 

and here's the youtube link to the video of our crew bring the man back..

 

 

 

You cannot hear how loud the applause were on the ship from all the crew and passengers.

 

I totally get what you are saying. After this experience though I have to say I do have a huge amount of respect for the ship's crew. These guys risked their lives to save a man who at the time did not want to be saved. Our crew ROCKED! As far as the passengers onboard, when we were asked by the Captain to go out on deck because they needed everyone's eyes to look for this man. Well, I have to say I was extremely impressed by what I witnessed. It was a surreal experience that to this day brings tears to my eyes, especially when I watch the videos. The way I feel when I embark on a ship now is that we are all pretty much a family that is embarking on an adventure at sea and if something happens we are for the most part on our own at least until help can get there.

 

 

I don't know if I answered your question directly but I hope you get the drift. I do trust and respect the ship crews more than ever after this incident. I do believe in an emergency that the crew would risk their lives for us. I can't say that for all the passengers as I know their will always be an idiot no matter where you go and it only takes one. Hope this helps!

 

Here's the link to the C.C. thread on this topic/story..

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1616321

 

Oh, and one other note..On this same cruise we had to return to Hawaii for a medical evac and again our crew ROCKED!

 

Gosh, that was rough. I hope they restrained him until they reached land.

[Lil2Angelic]

He was kept down below under guard til our first port which was Hilo. From there I remember seeing emergency vehicles and they took him off the ship in a stretcher. I talked to one of the tender boat captains we ran into on the Hertz car rental shuttle. He said the guy was extremely lucky because most people that jump don't survive the initial fall because when the hit the water it knocks them out. He said he broke a bone in his neck. He jumped from the 9 deck aft port side.

[BeagleOne]

The best piece of advice that I can give anybody reading this thread is that, no matter how frequently you travel, whether by airplane, ship or any of other means of transportation, PAY ATTENTION to safety briefings. It only takes a few minutes of your life but it can save it (yes, I'm talking to you, Platinum frequent traveler, rolling your eyes at this suggestion). Just knowing where your nearest exit is and how to get there can make a immense difference. All it takes is for one idiot who didn't pay attention to freak out during a real emergency and to run the opposite way, trampling people and disrupting an orderly evacuation. It can change a headline from "everyone safe" to "multiple deaths".

 

I've flown a lot in my life, and I always pay attention to the briefing. I also look at the card to see how to open the exits, and I count the number of rows between me and the exits (keeping in mind that my nearest exit might be behind me! ;) ) so if visibility is impaired I can count the rows by touch. I wear close-toed, flat-soled shoes, too. IDK if all of that will help me in a real emergency, but OTOH, I won't be one of those idiots getting their hand luggage out as the plane burns...

 

Same in a hotel or on a ship...I learn the quickest exit route and try to have a plan in my head for wherever I am. So far I've been lucky and haven't needed them. But you just never know.

[Lil2Angelic]

It is good to be aware and have a plan. Probably more than one, especially where to meet if you can depending on the situation of course because it can really mess with your head when something happens.

 

I can tell you that was our third time on the Spirit when the jumper incident happened and we had been on the Pride which is also a Spirit class ship. After the incident I kept getting lost on the ship for the rest of the cruise. Kept getting confused especially with regards to Aft and Forward.

 

The whole thing just messed me up and that was just witnessing the incident form the bravo call forward. I can't imagine how the family or the people who actually witnessed the incident from the beginning felt.

 

The water slide where all the kids are is on the deck directly above Deck 9 where he jumped from the Serenity area. There was a young boy with his parents who told us that he saw him jump and was trying to tell everyone but they chastised him telling him don't joke around like that til finally they realized he was telling the truth. I often wonder how effected he was by everything.

 

The other thing I noticed once we got up on deck as the Captain requested "all eyes", I will never forget seeing, like a photograph in my mind, this one man just laying on a lounge up there soaking up the sun in his speedo like nothing was happening. It was just so surreal and felt like everything was in slow motion. Some passengers were very upset, some not so much and some not all it seemed. The crew was absolutely amazing!

Edited October 27, 2015 by Lil2Angelic

[Oppalopa]

Although there's a handful of people that may fall in the "idiot" category, it's not them who the focus is when it comes to emergency procedures. At least in my line of work, crew members are trained to pinpoint those passengers who will be able to assist them in case of a real emergency, long before it actually happens. And this is happening without no one else realizing it.

 

As mentioned before, there are too many variables involved in a real emergency. But the best that we can do is to have confidence in the common sense of the vast majority of passengers. Furthermore, that between the training and effort of the crew members, assisted by those passengers able and willing to go that extra mile, that the negative impact of those "idiot" passengers can be minimized as much as possible. [emoji4]

Do you think this is why they give discounts to Police and Firefighters and the Military on cruises? :)

[evandbob]

I just returned from the Magic on its 10/18-10/25 sailing. Weather delays caused us to arrive at port around 9:30AM. The CD kept announcing that passengers had to wait to debark, every 15 or 20 minutes he repeated his pleas.

 

However, crowds pushed, shoved and stampeded to deck zero anxious to exit. Staff there allowed anyone to exit regardless of status or zone #. As long as you bulled your way to the front of the line, you were able to get off the ship while the crew ignored the CD's instructions.

 

By 11AM, the CD still had not announced any that zones were ready to debark. Many Zone 1 passengers including myself, were penalized for following his instructions while the crew couldn't do simple crowd control for a practiced and regularly scheduled event.

 

I believe it would be a Costa Concordia repeat if there was a real emergency.

[jimbo5544]

I just returned from the Magic on its 10/18-10/25 sailing. Weather delays caused us to arrive at port around 9:30AM. The CD kept announcing that passengers had to wait to debark, every 15 or 20 minutes he repeated his pleas.

 

However, crowds pushed, shoved and stampeded to deck zero anxious to exit. Staff there allowed anyone to exit regardless of status or zone #. As long as you bulled your way to the front of the line, you were able to get off the ship while the crew ignored the CD's instructions.

 

By 11AM, the CD still had not announced any that zones were ready to debark. Many Zone 1 passengers including myself, were penalized for following his instructions while the crew couldn't do simple crowd control for a practiced and regularly scheduled event.

 

I believe it would be a Costa Concordia repeat if there was a real emergency.

I can understand you jumping to that conclusion but past history of events show just the opposite. Royal had a fire (on ROTS I believe) where the they did muster and it went very smoothly. Big difference between what you describe (people want to get off the ship because) and an a true emergency. If your point is that people need take muster drills(not the cruise line) more seriously, then I agree.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimbo5544

[chengkp75]

I just returned from the Magic on its 10/18-10/25 sailing. Weather delays caused us to arrive at port around 9:30AM. The CD kept announcing that passengers had to wait to debark, every 15 or 20 minutes he repeated his pleas.

 

However, crowds pushed, shoved and stampeded to deck zero anxious to exit. Staff there allowed anyone to exit regardless of status or zone #. As long as you bulled your way to the front of the line, you were able to get off the ship while the crew ignored the CD's instructions.

 

By 11AM, the CD still had not announced any that zones were ready to debark. Many Zone 1 passengers including myself, were penalized for following his instructions while the crew couldn't do simple crowd control for a practiced and regularly scheduled event.

 

I believe it would be a Costa Concordia repeat if there was a real emergency.

 

This may end up fairly long and wordy, but since the OP started a thread that may affect the decisions of new/inexperienced cruisers, I feel that certain facts should be made clear.

 

Lots of comments regarding the Concordia, so, having a copy of the official investigation, I opened it again to refresh my memory and get some factual details.

 

First, let me dispel some myths that many cruisers have concerning emergencies, mustering, and signals. The signal that passengers are told indicates they are to proceed to their muster stations (more than six short blasts followed by one long blast), is not the signal for abandon ship. It is the signal for "fire and general emergency". However, since the passengers have no duties in an emergency other than to muster and possibly to enter the lifeboats and evacuate, they feel this is the signal for abandon ship. The crew are to report to their emergency stations upon hearing this signal, not to abandon ship.

 

A second myth that cruisers have is that from the time that the muster signal is given, all boats are to be loaded and launched within 30 minutes. This is not true. The SOLAS requirement is that the boats be loaded and launched within 30 minutes, after the muster is completed. The muster of passengers is to congregate them in known, limited, locations, and to provide accountability, so that crew can be sent to find missing passengers. Only after all passengers are accounted for, and if the Captain decides that the situation truly warrants exposing the passengers to the dangers of the lifeboats, will the order be passed to load and launch the boats. This is still NOT the order to abandon ship.

 

This is where the confusion and ultimately the fatalities occurred on the Concordia. The Captain failed to sound the muster signal in a timely fashion (it should have been as soon as he heard that there was flooding), and the crew were taking their direction from this, and correctly (based on their training) sending passengers away from the muster stations.

 

The Concordia struck the rock at 2145 hours, within 6 minutes the bridge is notified that the engine room is flooding, but not for another 42 minutes is the muster signal given. Had the muster been signaled at 2151 when flooding was confirmed, it would have been completed and all passengers accounted for by 2233 when it was actually sounded. This would have led to far less confusion and delay in loading and launching the boats. Remember, 23 of 26 lifeboats were launched, and over 2800 were in those boats reaching shore, even with all the confusion.

 

Many posters to this thread, and the OP in particular are comparing crew performance during routine operations like disembarkation and tendering to crew performance during emergencies. Please remember that the cruise industry is a service industry, so crew are told essentially to allow most passenger behavior (crowding at disembark, jumping lines, etc.) as long as it does not create a safety hazard. They all know how much cruisers complain about stupid crew and stupid rules that affect their vacations. The crew will and do act differently when it comes to emergency situations, and will stop passengers from doing what they are not supposed to do.

 

I am now going over to the other thread "not enough lifeboats" in the "ask a cruise question" forum to dispense some facts concerning the Concordia and her boats.

[Brighton Line]

Just read the USCG report on the Splendor.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg545/docs/documents/CarnivalSplendor.pdf

 

Bridge Officer reset the alarms so they automatic fire surpresion system would not discharge. This probably would have stopped the fire.

I did cut and paste between log entries but please read for yourself, I found it interesting reading on the errors made but I still sail Carnival.

 

DG is Diesel Generator

At 0601, two fire/smoke detectors above DG5 and DG6 were activated. Within seconds of activation of these detectors, a bridge watch officer performed a general reset of the fire detection system. As a result of this action, all fire/smoke detectors returned to a normal status

.

By 0603, the fire and smoke detectors above DG5 and DG6 were in a fault status. As a result, the Hi-Fog system for local protection was not automatically triggered by the fire detection system.

 

...

However,

activation of the Hi-Fog system in the vicinity of the DG5 and DG6 did not occur until 0615.

[beshears]

I have not read any of your postings that you have received, but this is my opinion.

 

If it is in regard to your room steward, and you have money, jewelry, etc. with you, put it in the vault, as a safety caution. I'm not saying they would take anything, but as the expression goes, out of sight, out of mind.