PVSA Violations That Didn't Occur!!!

[sparks1093]

Remember earlier that I said I talked to two passengers who embarked in Ketchikan. They were traveling with another couple who also boarded with them. All four of these had flight problems in the same airport that I was to depart from but on a different carrier. These two went on the land-portion of the cruise tour as I and were flying back home afterwards. The other couple took a different cruise with a different company to smaller Alaskan ports and then were to fly home.

 

ChengKp75, I think you may have just lost at least a 1/3 of your farm! :)

 

It is my understanding (and my knowledge is nothing like the Chief's) that if there is a verifiable reason for a passenger missing the embarkation port that is outside of the passenger's control that the cruise line and/or CBP will waive the fine under the PVSA, but if the passenger misses the embarkation port because of reasons within their control (such as forgetting their travel documents at home) then they will not because they have no way to verify whether or not the passenger intentionally missed the embarkation port. (I have read many threads over the years of people looking to just this sort of thing for personal reasons and the reason that they couldn't do it was the PVSA.) In short, one circumstance is unintentional and the other is intentional.

[ytwater]

Remember earlier that I said I talked to two passengers who embarked in Ketchikan. They were traveling with another couple who also boarded with them. All four of these had flight problems in the same airport that I was to depart from but on a different carrier. These two went on the land-portion of the cruise tour as I and were flying back home afterwards. The other couple took a different cruise with a different company to smaller Alaskan ports and then were to fly home.

 

ChengKp75, I think you may have just lost at least a 1/3 of your farm! :)

Edited September 3, 2016 by ytwater
I didn't realize who big the tread has gotten!

[navybankerteacher]

This all seems to be a matter of OP having his nose out of joint because he suffered a loss because the provisions of PVSA were applied in his case while in a ROUGHLY similar case (the details of which seem to have somehow become known to him) others fared better.

 

The law seems to have been applied in his case - the circumstances may or may not have been different in another case - but he has no valid complaint -- at best it is like someone ticketed for going 85 in a 35 mph zone claiming damage because he thinks that someone going 50 was not ticketed.

[BruceMuzz]

Yes.

They must be built in the US (the Pride of America being an exception through congress), owned by a US company, employ a certain percentage of US citizens and or US green card citizens in order to be flagged as I believe.

 

Neither the US or Australia in your case can produce a marketable, cost effective and profitable large scale cruise ship to market.

From my knowledge of this, only Germany, Finland, Italy, France, Korea and China can produce vessels of this size and quality with existing ship yards and infrastructure.

 

Stoping foreign built ships being flagged at US or Australian does not help the yard workers. They still have no jobs.

Maybe they would have more work in maintenance going back to their yard if they were built there, but labor disputes and higher pay (a lot higher pay), working on government contracts that can overrun and exceed budgets, keep it a closed shop for the younger generation.

 

ex techie

 

And then the Pride of Aloha (previously Norwegian Sky, built in Germany) was an exception through congress. Then the Pride of Hawaii (built in Germany) was an exception through congress. Despite these sweetheart deals, the ships failed as American flag ships. NCL re-flagged them to foreign and moved them to more profitable areas.

As the Chief has stated, building cruise ships in America is not the issue.

Now that US Immigration is refusing work visas for Engineers who built these foreign flag ships, the US yards are in even deeper trouble. The major cruise lines are taking all their refit jobs to Canada and the Caribbean.

 

Dealing with US Immigration on PVSA violations can be very difficult. For nearly 40 years I have been negotiating with local CBP Officers on cases of pax missing the ships, leaving early, dying during the cruise, whatever.

Typically the officer tells me that they will investigate and get back to me in 3 months or so. But occasionally, even before hearing all the details, the officer says "violation waived, no fine". Or he says, "that's a violation, the cruise line owes us $300".

Since US Customs and Immigration is divided up into regional units, the officers are left to interpret the law in any way they like. You never know which way they will rule on any given day.

Edited September 3, 2016 by BruceMuzz

[ytwater]

What have you read so far navybankteacher? The law was never challenged because I was told I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan should I try because I would violate the PSVA. I never challenged that cruiseline threat.

 

Time later I find out that the cruiseline knowingly violated the PVSA by allowing 14 passengers to board in Ketichan with a ship's itinerarynd passenger manifest proving that it would be violations. Apparently, CBP chose not to penalize the cruiseline. I have no control over that discretion. I think if I had been allowed to explain my problem to CBP they may have waived the penalty because it was not for personal convenience and the cruiseline would have no reason to deny my boarding.

 

I think any passenger who missed embarkation should be permitted to "plead their case" (i.e., no personal convenience gained, a stupid mistake (and we ALL are humans, well maybe not some) and if the cruiseline is penalized volunteer to pay the fine. PVSA violations have nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation.

[navybankerteacher]

What have you read so far navybankteacher? The law was never challenged because I was told I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan should I try because I would violate the PSVA. I never challenged that cruiseline threat.

 

...

 

I think any passenger who missed embarkation should be permitted to "plead their case" (i.e., no personal convenience gained, a stupid mistake (and we ALL are humans, well maybe not some) and if the cruiseline is penalized volunteer to pay the fine. PVSA violations have nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation.

 

I'm sorry you missed your cruise - but I think my earlier post reflects my understanding of what I read --- the law was applied in your case but (in accordance with your understanding) not in a different case.

 

Would you be happier if the same happened to the others?

[Shmoo here]

What have you read so far navybankteacher? The law was never challenged because I was told I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan should I try because I would violate the PSVA. I never challenged that cruiseline threat.

 

Time later I find out that the cruiseline knowingly violated the PVSA by allowing 14 passengers to board in Ketichan with a ship's itinerarynd passenger manifest proving that it would be violations. Apparently, CBP chose not to penalize the cruiseline. I have no control over that discretion. I think if I had been allowed to explain my problem to CBP they may have waived the penalty because it was not for personal convenience and the cruiseline would have no reason to deny my boarding.

 

I think any passenger who missed embarkation should be permitted to "plead their case" (i.e., no personal convenience gained, a stupid mistake (and we ALL are humans, well maybe not some) and if the cruiseline is penalized volunteer to pay the fine. PVSA violations have nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation.

But, you see, it is for "personal convenience". Yours. You forgot your documents. You want an exemption for your personal convenience to be able to fly to Ketchikan and board anyway, because you want it.

 

But it's against the law.

 

Whether the other people were or were not fined, or the cruise line was or was not fined, in their case, has no bearing on your case.

 

They were delayed boarding - you don't know why, you don't know if the reason was due to an issue with something the cruise line set up or something that each passenger set up. They could have been fined, or not. If they were, they could pass that fine onto the offending passengers, or not. It's not really their "personal convenience" as they did nothing to cause the situation. You did.

[ytwater]

What did I gain by forgetting my travel documents; extra plane fare, inconvenience, lost cruise days; what do you define as a personal convenience?

 

I made stupid mistake. Should I have to forfeit my entire cruise cost for a presumptive violation of the PVSA? Again, and I will always state, the reason for missed embarkation as NOTHING to do with a PSVA violation; you either board in a port after Vancouver and get off in Whittier, causing a violation, or not. If you do, it is a violation, period. But, albeit, they may not be documented at the discretion of CBP, and not the cruise line.

[Shmoo here]

What did I gain by forgetting my travel documents; extra plane fare, inconvenience, lost cruise days; what do you define as a personal convenience?

 

I made stupid mistake. Should I have to forfeit my entire cruise cost for a presumptive violation of the PVSA? Again, and I will always state, the reason for missed embarkation as NOTHING to do with a PSVA violation; you either board in a port after Vancouver and get off in Whittier, causing a violation, or not. If you do, it is a violation, period. But, albeit, they may not be documented at the discretion of CBP, and not the cruise line.

 

"Personal convenience" in that, in spite of whatever "stupid" mistake you made you want to still be able to take the cruise. It's for your convenience that you're asking that they waive the legal requirements.

 

Yes, it's the discretion of the CBP, but more times than not they will assess the fine.

 

The cruise line rep told you that it's likely that you will be denied boarding. That's the cruise line policy, as they will not willfully flaunt the law, and be fined. Believe me, the cruise lines have probably dealt with more cases of "because I'm special" than you will probably every know about and they know their business. Sadly, yours is not the first case of "I forgot" and won't be the last. Should they just let all those people go ahead and take the cruise? Don't think so.

[sparks1093]

What have you read so far navybankteacher? The law was never challenged because I was told I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan should I try because I would violate the PSVA. I never challenged that cruiseline threat.

 

Time later I find out that the cruiseline knowingly violated the PVSA by allowing 14 passengers to board in Ketichan with a ship's itinerarynd passenger manifest proving that it would be violations. Apparently, CBP chose not to penalize the cruiseline. I have no control over that discretion. I think if I had been allowed to explain my problem to CBP they may have waived the penalty because it was not for personal convenience and the cruiseline would have no reason to deny my boarding.

 

I think any passenger who missed embarkation should be permitted to "plead their case" (i.e., no personal convenience gained, a stupid mistake (and we ALL are humans, well maybe not some) and if the cruiseline is penalized volunteer to pay the fine. PVSA violations have nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation.

 

Your boarding would be a violation because the reason you missed embarkation was entirely within your control. 100%. The other passengers missed embarkation because of circumstances beyond their control. 100%. CBP determined your situation would be a violation regardless of what you said to plead your case and in the case of the other passengers CBP determined that there was no violation.

[Shmoo here]

Your boarding would be a violation because the reason you missed embarkation was entirely within your control. 100%. The other passengers missed embarkation because of circumstances beyond their control. 100%. CBP determined your situation would be a violation regardless of what you said to plead your case and in the case of the other passengers CBP determined that there was no violation.

 

Yes, this ^^^

 

Thank you.

[klfrodo]

Note to self:

Don't be a dumbass and leave important travel documents at home.

[FredT]

What have you read so far navybankteacher? The law was never challenged because I was told I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan should I try because I would violate the PSVA. I never challenged that cruiseline threat.

 

Time later I find out that the cruiseline knowingly violated the PVSA by allowing 14 passengers to board in Ketichan with a ship's itinerarynd passenger manifest proving that it would be violations. Apparently, CBP chose not to penalize the cruiseline. I have no control over that discretion. I think if I had been allowed to explain my problem to CBP they may have waived the penalty because it was not for personal convenience and the cruiseline would have no reason to deny my boarding.

 

I think any passenger who missed embarkation should be permitted to "plead their case" (i.e., no personal convenience gained, a stupid mistake (and we ALL are humans, well maybe not some) and if the cruiseline is penalized volunteer to pay the fine. PVSA violations have nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation.

 

LOL... And if they had told you to go to Ketichan (At your own cost) and THEN you had been denied boarding, you would have been DOUBLY "upset" (And demanded restitution for your flight to/from Ketichan! (Seen it before!)

Edited September 4, 2016 by FredT

[zqvol]

This all seems to be a matter of OP having his nose out of joint because he suffered a loss because the provisions of PVSA were applied in his case while in a ROUGHLY similar case (the details of which seem to have somehow become known to him) others fared better.

 

The law seems to have been applied in his case - the circumstances may or may not have been different in another case - but he has no valid complaint -- at best it is like someone ticketed for going 85 in a 35 mph zone claiming damage because he thinks that someone going 50 was not ticketed.

 

You have hit the nail on the head!

 

OP is trying to create a claim against his cruise line when one doesn't exist.

[navybankerteacher]

What did I gain by forgetting my travel documents; extra plane fare, inconvenience, lost cruise days; what do you define as a personal convenience?

 

I made stupid mistake. Should I have to forfeit my entire cruise cost for a presumptive violation of the PVSA? Again, and I will always state, the reason for missed embarkation as NOTHING to do with a PSVA violation; you either board in a port after Vancouver and get off in Whittier, causing a violation, or not. If you do, it is a violation, period. But, albeit, they may not be documented at the discretion of CBP, and not the cruise line.

 

Okay: here is where it was a personal convenience: most of us create checklists, and refer to them, to ensure that we bring all necessary documentation with us and make the effort to leave early enough to make connections - in short we do what we are supposed to do to complete our travel.

 

For some reason you did not take those steps : perhaps because they would have been inconvenient --- no one takes any joy at your loss, but some of us are tiring of your contention that laws should be disregarded for your convenience.

[notentirelynormal]

ytwater: You state your location as Lafayette, Indiana and this cruise left from Seattle. Did you leave your password back in Indiana?

 

Look, you have two people answer you who have first hand knowledge of how ships work and speak from experience. You don't want to hear it. In fact, you don't want to hear anything about this situation being your fault. It has been pointed out enough to you that it is like complaining you got a speeding ticket and now want to know why everyone else speeding didn't get on.

 

What did I gain by forgetting my travel documents; extra plane fare, inconvenience, lost cruise days; what do you define as a personal convenience?

 

I made stupid mistake. Should I have to forfeit my entire cruise cost for a presumptive violation of the PVSA? Again, and I will always state, the reason for missed embarkation as NOTHING to do with a PSVA violation; you either board in a port after Vancouver and get off in Whittier, causing a violation, or not. If you do, it is a violation, period. But, albeit, they may not be documented at the discretion of CBP, and not the cruise line.

 

The short answer is yes.

You need to get over it. YOU screwed up. YOU.

 

ChengKp75, I think you may have just lost at least a 1/3 of your farm! :)

 

ChengKp75 works the ships. He doesn't have to speak on these boards at all but a vast majority quite respect him. It wouldn't hurt you to do the same if you want us to give you any respect at all.

Remember earlier that I said I talked to two passengers who embarked in Ketchikan. They were traveling with another couple who also boarded with them. All four of these had flight problems in the same airport that I was to depart from but on a different carrier. These two went on the land-portion of the cruise tour as I and were flying back home afterwards. The other couple took a different cruise with a different company to smaller Alaskan ports and then were to fly home.

 

I'm confused. Did you fly to Ketchikan? What airport are you talking about? What do you mean you talked to them at the end of their cruise? Did you go back to the airport at the end of the cruise to specifically track down cruisers? Were you supposed to go on a land tour? Where were you denied boarding?

 

I think you need to be a little less cryptic with us with information. You would have more validity if we knew ALL the facts, not just the ones you think we "need" to know. Because I can tell you, this paragraph makes no sense at all. Where were you? What were you doing there? Was this your home port?

How is it even possible that out of all the people on the ship you were able to meet up with the only 14 people that not only missed the embarkation port but being allowed to board and their entire circumstances? Amazing. You must have great karma (well almost). Why did you even need the manifest if you had talked to these people?

[Shmoo here]

You have hit the nail on the head!

 

OP is trying to create a claim against his cruise line when one doesn't exist.

 

Or, maybe, a claim on travel insurance for a "missed" cruise?

[MicCanberra]

Mistakes happen and sometimes the consequence is worse than others but who was it that said he couldn't - the cruise line , the port authorities or the captain. If PVSA is violated why couldn't the OP just pay the fine of $300 and board at the next port.

[BillB48]

Mistakes happen and sometimes the consequence is worse than others but who was it that said he couldn't - the cruise line , the port authorities or the captain. If PVSA is violated why couldn't the OP just pay the fine of $300 and board at the next port.

 

Basically that is looked upon as circumventing the law. There are instances where the authorities will waive the fine if a violation was committed, but they don't have the authority to permit you to violate the law.

 

This isn't your ancestors Catholic Church... no more indulgences!:D

[ytwater]

When I finally was able to notify the cruiseline that I would miss embarkation (their so-called en route emergency number does not work 24/7, just starts at 5:00 AM PST), the first question from them was why. When I explained that I temporarily lost my travel documents but made flight arrangements to meet the ship in Ketchikan after retrieving them, the response I got was that I would be denied boarding because in doing so I would violate the PVSA. They said that I could only join the land portion of the cruise tour in Anchorage.

 

I did so and met persons that missed embarkation but were permitted to board in Ketchikan. The only difference was that they missed because of an airline problem, not a personal reason. They did not buy any kind trip protection insurance. It is the CBP that determines if a PVSA violation has occurred based on passenger manifests submitted by the ship. A PVSA violation has absolutely nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation; it's the transportation of passengers between US ports without a far-distant foreign port of call. However, it may affect how the CBP reacts to violations when the passengers board. CBP may

 

1) document a violation with a subsequent penalty of $300 per passenger, and if so,

a) the cruise line may require reimbursement from the passenger if they didn't purchase "next port" protection,

b) or, as I was told by a cruise line rep, the airlines may reimburse the cruiseline if they were the root cause of a PVSA

2) discretionarily waive any violation

 

It is known fact that 14 persons boarded in Ketchikan (per CBP FIOIA response) due to missed embarkation. It is also a known that 4 of these debarked in Whittier (direct communication with 2 of the 4 traveling together) that should have caused PSVA violations but apparently were waived and not documented (per CBP FIOIA response).

 

I am waiting to hear back more from CBP regarding this specific issue of why these violations were not documented. The agent that is working with me went on personal vacation so I have to wait.

Edited September 4, 2016 by ytwater

[CapeCodCruiser]

I get it. Your issue is the cruise lines seems to apply the PVSA arbitrarily which it should not be allowed. You should have also been been allowed to board in Ketchikan - and all of you should have triggered a PVSA violation.

[sparks1093]

When I finally was able to notify the cruiseline that I would miss embarkation (their so-called en route emergency number does not work 24/7, just starts at 5:00 AM PST), the first question from them was why. When I explained that I temporarily lost my travel documents but made flight arrangements to meet the ship in Ketchikan after retrieving them, the response I got was that I would be denied boarding because in doing so I would violate the PVSA. They said that I could only join the land portion of the cruise tour in Anchorage.

 

I did so and met persons that missed embarkation but were permitted to board in Ketchikan. The only difference was that they missed because of an airline problem, not a personal reason. They did not buy any kind trip protection insurance. It is the CBP that determines if a PVSA violation has occurred based on passenger manifests submitted by the ship. A PVSA violation has absolutely nothing to do with what caused missed embarkation; it's the transportation of passengers between US ports without a far-distant foreign port of call. However, it may affect how the CBP reacts to violations when the passengers board. CBP may

 

1) document a violation with a subsequent penalty of $300 per passenger, and if so,

a) the cruise line may require reimbursement from the passenger if they didn't purchase "next port" protection,

b) or, as I was told by a cruise line rep, the airlines may reimburse the cruiseline if they were the root cause of a PVSA

2) discretionarily waive any violation

 

It is known fact that 14 persons boarded in Ketchikan (per CBP FIOIA response) due to missed embarkation. It is also a known that 4 of these debarked in Whittier (direct communication with 2 of the 4 traveling together) that should have caused PSVA violations but apparently were waived and not documented (per CBP FIOIA response).

 

I am waiting to hear back more from CBP regarding this specific issue of why these violations were not documented. The agent that is working with me went on personal vacation so I have to wait.

 

CBP determined in the case of the fourteen passengers that the violation was waivable and in your case it wasn't. You might have a case against them, except as a government agency charged with enforcing the law their discretion is almost absolute. The cruise line has no choice but to comply with CBP's determinations. As much as I feel for your situation I think you'd be better off spending your time in a more useful pursuit.

[CapeCodCruiser]

CBP determined in the case of the fourteen passengers that the violation was waivable and in your case it wasn't. You might have a case against them, except as a government agency charged with enforcing the law their discretion is almost absolute. The cruise line has no choice but to comply with CBP's determinations. As much as I feel for your situation I think you'd be better off spending your time in a more useful pursuit.

 

So you are saying it is the CBP that determine's WHO can BOARD the ship even if they are willing to pay the $300 fine?

 

I think that is the OP's issue - not so much about the PVSA violation but that others were allowed to board while he was not. And at least 4 of them who were allowed to board he knows for certain were NOT on a B2B that would result in not violating the PVSA

[sparks1093]

So you are saying it is the CBP that determine's WHO can BOARD the ship even if they are willing to pay the $300 fine?

 

I think that is the OP's issue - not so much about the PVSA violation but that others were allowed to board while he was not. And at least 4 of them who were allowed to board he knows for certain were NOT on a B2B that would result in not violating the PVSA

 

As BruceMuzz pointed out the cruise line can call CBP and ask if the PVSA would be waived in a certain passenger's circumstances that CBP will obviously exercise that discretion. They evidently did so for those passengers that missed embarkation through no fault of their own (and their situation is able to be verified by a third party. I don't know if the cruise line even bothered to call CBP in the OP's circumstance because they would undoubtedly know that CBP wouldn't waive the fine because he missed embarkation due to circumstances completely within his control.

[ytwater]

Not.., I was making a joke to chengkp75. I certainly wasn't trying to show disrespect towards him. I appreciate his comments.

 

I will try to explain everything in chronological details.

 

Two friends and I planned this trip together, 7 days sailing and 6 around Denali.

 

After arriving at the Indianapolis airport to embark the ship, I realized that I had left my passport and drivers ID at home. I couldn't board the airline. I tried calling the en route emegency number to get advice. As I was waiting for my documents to arrive, I learned from a solo traveler of flight problems with another carrier and how it was going to impact him getting to Vancouver. While waiting a couple of hours for my documents to arrive, I tried calling the emergency travel number every 15 minutes (see previous post for details concerning emergency number system). Once I had my docs and still hadn't been advised as to what to do, I made a logical decision to fly to Ketchikan, the next port of call; completely unaware of the PVSA.

 

After driving home, I finally talked to a cruise rep. That is when it was explained that because I caused the problem, I would be denied boarding in Ketchikan or any another other ship itinerary port of call. During this conversation, the rep didn't say that if it was an airline problem I would have been able to board in Ketchikan; I would learn of this later.

 

During this same conversation, I was told that I could join my friends and the land portion of my cruise tour in Anchorage. A train from Whittier would stop in Anchorage to allow passenger boarding. In order to recoup a part of my trip, I flew from Indianapolis to Anchorage a week later. Upon my return, I learned the details about the en route emergency system flaws and the PVSA.

 

On the train going from Anchorage to Mt Denali, I met up with my friends. I explained in detail what had happen and the first words from my mouth were, "You have to meet this couple that is doing the land trip also." They overheard these two plus a couple they were doing the cruise portion together talking about how they missed embarkation due to a flight problem in Indianapolis and were permitted to board in Ketchikan without any insurance or knowledge of any PVSA violation. I talked with the couple during a couple of bus tours during the land trip. That is how I learned of their details and the couple they traveled with during the cruise.

 

I'm not clairvoyant or have "almost" great karma. I researched my facts and noted conversations that I had with cruise reps. I made a FOIA to CBP and an agent has taken a personal interest in this situation. I am waiting to hear more from him after he returns from a personal vacation.

 

I will said it again. This was my own doing; a studip, absent-minded mistake. I am NOT going to attempt any reimbursement from or suit against the cruiseline. Maybe, I haven't thought seriously about it, a class action suit might get movement towards a re-write of the 100+ year old PVSA). I would like to get some explanations of how they can choose to treat customers so perversely, knowing that they won't admit to anything. Apparently, PVSA violations are rare (I think chengkp75 said this) and fines more so. I would like to hear from CBP what discretionary steps they have with documenting PVSA violations and exactly how do they get determined.

 

Finally, the purpose for my original post here at CC, I wanted to let potential cruisers to completely understand what can happen on this particular type of cruise should embarkation be missed and that the cause will determine the type of customer service the cruise line will provide to you.

 

Any other questions NotEn...? I will be glad to answer them.

Edited September 4, 2016 by ytwater