US Congress to investigate disappearances

[jennew]

How can you hold them accountable?

 

1) institute procedures to deal with missing passengers. For example: When George Smith disapeared the room should have been held as a crime scene until the FBI was able to investigate.

 

2) turn over all video tapes to the FBI following a disappearance. In a case involving a missing woman who was sailing alone on a RCCL, it was discovered that no one reported her missing. The ship erased the tapes before they could be reviewed.

 

3) train employees on how to handle missing passenger cases. In the same case I already referred to, the room steward knew she had not been on her room all week. At the end of the cruise the steward packed up her clothes and cleaned her room. There should have been a missing person report, the room should have been treated as a crime scene, etc.

 

I am sure there are other things but this is a good start. The point is, there should be enforced procedures in place when dealing with a US passenger who goes missing.

[chrysalis]

none of those points hold anyone "accountable".....

 

having said that, you only warrant those suggestions if US passengers who go missing.....so what happens in international waters, on a ship "flagged" in Liberia, when a non-US person goes missing?

[jennew]

If a non-US passenger is involved then it has nothing to do with our congress.

 

I merely am offering a starting point. If a non-US flagged ship is going to make a boatload (pun intended) of money docking in the US, then they ought to answer to the US on some things.

 

As was already stated, this rarely happens, so it should not be a huge problem for the cruiseline to agree to a plan.

[Linda the Book Lover]

We are all distressed when someone goes missing regardless of the circumstance. Sadly, resources are not always available and many volunteers are needed in the searches. I am always happy when the person is found safe and sound.

As far as Congress, I will make the ultimate sacrifice and work with Congress by sailing every cruise line's ships on a fact-finding investigation. At our tax payer expense of course! :)

[chrysalis]

"agreeing to a plan" is very different than "enforced proceedures"

[jennew]

are you always this nit-picky? How about letting cruiselines make a fortune and if they lose a passenger or two- OH WELL. Darn, hate it when that happens.

 

Properly reporting missing passengers to their country of origin is a minor thing really. Conducting a proper investigation should be mandatory. Currently cruiselines are not being held to a standard on this issue. They SHOULD be held accountable to proper investigations and reporting.

[chrysalis]

oh please...what does profitability got to do with anything?

 

...and cruise lines do not "lose" passengers....passengers lose themselves.

 

"mandatory" according to who?...held "accountable" to who?

[jennew]

If 14 people went missing in Disneyworld we would be concerned. How is this much different?

[critterchick]

This is a simple case of Congress wanting to hold hearing on an easy target - foreign flagged cruise lines. I will bet you dollars to donuts that some congressman will make a statement asking for legislation to increase regulation of foreign flagged vessels with US cruise ports - to increase safety and security - of course.

 

How about repealing the archaic provisions of the Passenger Services Act?:D :D

 

The stats speak for themselves. 10+million cruisers in 2004 and 10-15 mysterious dissapearances. ( A rate less than 0.15 per 100,000). In 2002, 10.6 per 100,000 people committed suicide, 35.3 died in accidents, 5.9 were assaulted and killed and 9.3 from chronic liver disease or cirrhosis.

 

Well, how many cruisers died from cirrhosis because of free drinks at the Captain's Gala? Let's investigate THAT!

 

I really don't want cameras watching everything that goes on down on the Caribe deck balconies...that'l cut down on the free entertainment.

 

Hee.

[Tom O.]

I just watched a whole program on TV concerning the dissapearance of Mr. Smith. It is not a simple case of dissapearance. Most likely he was murdered and thrown overboard. Passengers in neighboring cabins heard a lot of shouting and then heard a loud thump. It is believed that his murderers (probably other passengers) threw him over the balcony, but he landed on a lower deck. They then went to that deck and threw him into the sea. A lot of blood was found on that lower deck, some passengers video taped it. The crew should have preserved this evidence, but instead they washed the blood away. It is a case where there is not enough evidence to prove who is responsible.

The problem is cruise lines would rather that crimes go unpunished than to embarass their ships with bad publicity. Congress is just looking into this, as they should, in an effort to protect its citizens.

Crimes on cruise ships need to be investigated like crimes everywhere else. The problem is that the U.S. usually doesn't have any authority to investigate these crimes. That leaves the investigation in the hands of cruise lines, who looking to cover up all crimes, and mostly third world countries where these ships visit.

[kruisey]

As an earlier poster stated in the latest incident the husband saw his wife at 9.00AM in the morning....Surely if she was going to commit suicide would she have not waited till it was dark? I am very pleased that congress in USA is taking an interest in these disappearances:cool:

[kayred]

Maybe the congressmen is hoping the govt. will pay for their next cruise as "research" into the problem of missing passengers. They will be required to drink lots of alcohol (of course the govt. picks up the tab) just to see IF they could then fall overboard. (Of course the secret service that we pay for would save them ;) )....just a thought.

[Pam in CA]

I just watched a whole program on TV concerning the dissapearance of Mr. Smith. It is not a simple case of dissapearance. Most likely he was murdered and thrown overboard. Passengers in neighboring cabins heard a lot of shouting and then heard a loud thump. It is believed that his murderers (probably other passengers) threw him over the balcony, but he landed on a lower deck. They then went to that deck and threw him into the sea. A lot of blood was found on that lower deck, some passengers video taped it. The crew should have preserved this evidence, but instead they washed the blood away. It is a case where there is not enough evidence to prove who is responsible.

The problem is cruise lines would rather that crimes go unpunished than to embarass their ships with bad publicity. Congress is just looking into this, as they should, in an effort to protect its citizens.

Crimes on cruise ships need to be investigated like crimes everywhere else. The problem is that the U.S. usually doesn't have any authority to investigate these crimes. That leaves the investigation in the hands of cruise lines, who looking to cover up all crimes, and mostly third world countries where these ships visit.

Tom... It's not you but this is where I have a problem with the TV and media reports. They're just plain wrong and misleading, and they're interviewing people who give their opinions of what happened rather than double-checking the facts.

 

Fact #1: there was noise coming from the cabin that was described as "partying," not shouting. This is according to the one complaint filed with the Pursar's Desk which investigated. Security went to the door, knocked but there was no answer nor did they hear any noise.

 

Fact #2: the blood was not removed until AFTER the Turkish Government officials, and the FBI, had investigated and determined that they had gathered all of the evidence possible from the blood.

 

Jennew -- there is a proper investigation ongoing that includes the Turkish Goverment and the FBI. All of the proper authorities were notified and action taken. The ship was in Kusadasi when it was determined that Mr. Smith was missing and didn't leave port until it had the approval of the Turkish government. The Turks are responsible for the investigation with the assistance of the FBI.

 

Again, based on the facts (rather than the TV "news" reports), I haven't heard or read anything that wasn't being properly done or following procedure: the Turkish government was notified immediately and is investigating; the FBI was notified immediately and is investigating; RCI has been completely cooperative and preserved the scene until told that it was OK to clean up.

[madelinerose]

MSNBC tonight at 10PM...wife is interviewed.

[Pam in CA]

MSNBC tonight at 10PM...wife is interviewed.

Since she was the last one to be with him, I'm sure that's going to be factual and informative.

[vinoman]

What bothers me a bit is that Mr Smith went "missing" in the dark of night, while the woman in Nassau "disappeared" between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. either while cruising into the Bahamas or docked there. I find it a little more puzzling that no one saw her in daylight hours, during times when many people would up and about on the decks.

 

Jim

 

I read one of the links at the beginning of this thread and a friend of the woman who went missing said that she apparently suffered from depression. If so this is really sad, my sister ended her life by jumping off a parking structure.

[vinoman]

Canadian woman remains missing from cruise ship

 

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Jill Begora, the Canadian woman who went missing from a cruise ship near the Bahamas on Saturday and still hasn't been found, has been identified as a resident of Victoria, B.C.

When the story first broke, officials believed Begora was from Ontario, but have now revealed she had recently retired to Victoria with her husband Dennis Begora.

Fran Cooperman-Pfaff, a Victoria resident and Begora's best friend, was shaken by what seems more and more certain to be her friend's death.

"I'm feeling devastated and incredibly sad that this woman is just not going to be here anymore," said Cooperman-Pfaff.

Begora went missing on the last night of an eight night Caribbean Cruise Lines vacation. Her husband Dennis Begora, formerly a dentist in St. Catharines, Ontario, last saw her at about 9 a.m. on Saturday. He reported her missing when the ship arrived in port at the Bahamian capital, Nassau at about 1 p.m.

The ship had come from Antigua, an eastern Caribbean island, and officials believe Begora may have gone overboard in the Bahamas.

Recently the family of a man who may have been murdered on a cruise filed a lawsuit against the Caribbean Cruise Lines. But Cooperman-Pfaff doesn't suspect foul play is involved in her friend's disappearance. She said Begora suffered from a lifetime of depression.

"There's something very mesmerizing about the water and you just wonder if someone who is going through a difficult time would just go over," said Cooperman-Pfaff, but added that the uncertainty surrounding her friend's disappearance is the hardest part for her to deal with.

"Not knowing what happened is the most difficult part of it," Cooperman-Pfaff said. "If we could find out more details we could be a lot more settled."

Her family were also caught off guard by her disappearance and the mystery surrounding it.

"I've talked to my other cousins and so forth, adn they don't know anything more. They're just kind of shocked and our prayers and hopes are with the family now that everything will come out OK," Larry Begora, a cousin, said.

After her husband reported her missing, officials searched the ship. When no sign of Begora was found, a missing persons report was filed with the U.S. Coast Guard.

"They did a full ship search and there was no evidence that she had left the ship in Nassau," U.S. Coast Guard spokesman Dana Warr, explaining why authorities believe she may have fallen overboard.

On Sunday, a coast guard C-130 plane searched an area north of Nassau where the ship had been when Begora was first reported missing -- but they found nothing.

Finding someone in the ocean is, "one of the hardest things the Coast Guard has to do,'' Warr told The Associated Press, explaining that the area searched covered thousands of square miles.

The coast guard carried out an onboard investigation Sunday, after the ship arrived at Fort Lauderdale's Everglades port early that morning. They since handed their findings over to the Federal Bureau of Investigations.

In its first public comment on the disappearance, Royal Caribbean said in a statement released Monday:

"Upon departing Nassau Saturday, Jewel of the Seas retraced its course into that port, searching for the woman. (It) was assisted in the search by two other cruise ships in the area," the statement said.

"Royal Caribbean is providing assistance to the husband and is fully co-operating with the investigating agencies. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family during this difficult time."

Canadian Deputy High Commissioner Bryan Burton, who confirmed the woman's identity based on the ship's manifest, told The Canadian Press by phone from Kingston, Jamaica, that no new information on Begora's fate had turned up by late Monday morning.

Foreign Affairs spokesperson Marie-Christine Lilkoff added that the Canadian government is in contact with Begora's family, and consular officials are providing assistance from Miami.

The Jewel of the Seas is one of the Florida-based cruise company's newer ships, with a capacity of 2,100 guests.

[Dreamer333]

I blame Gopher. Didn't he become a Congressman? Now he wants to get back on a ship!

 

Lol!!!

 

On a light note... has anyone read the (fictional) novel Skinny Dip?

 

Its about a woman who is pushed overboard by her husband (who of course claimed that she never came back to the cabin after going for a walk), and the "investigation" that follows.

[Marmarjudy]

I blame Gopher. Didn't he become a Congressman? Now he wants to get back on a ship!

 

 

Gopher is no longer a congressman---I listen to him each morning on WMAL out of Washington DC. He's a cohost of a morning drive time talk news radio show.

 

Judy

[iancal]

The cruise ship lobby has been a VERY effective one over the years, and will continue to be so.

 

I think one issue is not just the disappeance but rather how the cruise lines respond. So far, the modus operandii is to keep quiet, reveal nothing about their internal investigations, the backgrounds of some of their staff, the organization and effectiveness of their internal security teams, and most important an alleged penchant for covering up, cleaning up, and otherwise destroying evidence. They only care about one thing...negative publicity and will do anything to hush up or play down an incident. This supercedes everything else including the desire to solve a crime.

[Linda the Book Lover]

The cruise ship lobby has been a VERY effective one over the years, and will continue to be so.

 

I think one issue is not just the disappeance but rather how the cruise lines respond. So far, the modus operandii is to keep quiet, reveal nothing about their internal investigations, the backgrounds of some of their staff, the organization and effectiveness of their internal security teams, and most important an alleged penchant for covering up, cleaning up, and otherwise destroying evidence. They only care about one thing...negative publicity and will do anything to hush up or play down an incident. This supercedes everything else including the desire to solve a crime.

It is not just the cruise ship industry. :(

[Pam in CA]

I think one issue is not just the disappeance but rather how the cruise lines respond. So far, the modus operandii is to keep quiet, reveal nothing about their internal investigations, the backgrounds of some of their staff, the organization and effectiveness of their internal security teams, and most important an alleged penchant for covering up, cleaning up, and otherwise destroying evidence. They only care about one thing...negative publicity and will do anything to hush up or play down an incident. This supercedes everything else including the desire to solve a crime.

This opinion is based on misinformation or perhaps something read in the media. How many ongoing police investigations do you know of that are completely open to the public? Actually, a lot of information has been released. The media has chosen not to reveal it because: a) they didn't bother to ask or get the facts; or, b) it doesn't make as good a story. Keep in mind that it's the Turkish Government doing the investigation. The media should probably go over to Turkey and hound the investigators there. Oh, right. That's probably too much trouble. Much more fun to write a titilating story about how dangerous cruises are and how out of control cruise lines are. They're big, bad, wicked and need to be regulated by the U.S. Goverment, which just loves to make sure they're into absolutely every ones business, whether it has anything to do with the U.S. or not.

[Linda the Book Lover]

Thank you Pam, well said!

[dan40]

Info for those of you that think the cruiselines do some sot of "cover up" that demands U.S. Gongessional investigation.

Fact, for 20 and more years [perhaps many more years] any ship that calls at an American port and has a potentially criminal incident involving an American, must immediately report that incident to the FBI. The FBI will take over and conduct the investigation. If it happened within the territorial waters of another country, they may also be involved, but the FBI will still investigate. Also the US Coast Guard and the FBI work closely together. And the CG can board without warning or cause, any ship travelling in American treaty waters. Which takes in all the western hemisphere and more.

So if there were a problem, the FBI and CG would rectify that problem in short order.

So a reporter wants to do a story about an incident.

Does the cruiseline give them the time of day? Hardly.

Does the FBI reveal anything to the reporter? HA! I say HA!

Does the CG tell all they know? Not this year.

Do fellow pax 7 decks removed tell what they know as told by the cousin of somebody they overheard talking to the wife of a guy they just met? Oh, very Yes.

Does the reporter want to sell the story? Yes, yes, yes. Is anybody going to dispute his accuracy? No.

 

Investigation ends.

 

Dan

[dan40]

Info for those of you that think the cruiselines do some sot of "cover up" that demands U.S. Gongessional investigation.

Fact, for 20 and more years [perhaps many more years] any ship that calls at an American port and has a potentially criminal incident involving an American, must immediately report that incident to the FBI. The FBI will take over and conduct the investigation. If it happened within the territorial waters of another country, they may also be involved, but the FBI will still investigate. Also the US Coast Guard and the FBI work closely together. And the CG can board without warning or cause, any ship travelling in American treaty waters. Which takes in all the western hemisphere and more.

So if there were a problem, the FBI and CG would rectify that problem in short order.

So a reporter wants to do a story about an incident.

Does the cruiseline give them the time of day? Hardly.

Does the FBI reveal anything to the reporter? HA! I say HA!

Does the CG tell all they know? Not this year.

Do fellow pax 7 decks removed tell what they know as told by the cousin of somebody they overheard talking to the wife of a guy they just met? Oh, very Yes.

Does the reporter want to sell the story? Yes, yes, yes. Is anybody going to dispute his accuracy? No.

 

Investigation ends.

 

Dan