"pure chaos" as Sunshine lists

[Out of Iowa]

due to a stabilizer problem, according to a note to passengers; on the evening TV news here, they reported it lasted just one minute....another report said "hours"

 

https://nypost.com/2018/11/01/pure-chaos-as-carnival-cruise-ship-tilts-on-its-side-at-sea/

 

 

[bury me at sea]

I read a couple of news articles on this and was sort of surprised no one had mentioned it here.  Guessed it might be like a 30 second mild quake on the west coast.

[DebJ14]

One of the passengers immediately called ABC News and was acting like it was the end of the world, but he did say it lasted only 60 seconds.   We have been on ships on 3 different lines when the ship suddenly listed.  Usually a glitch that moves the ballast unexpectedly, but always fixed quite quickly.  They had video of some dishes on the floor in the dining room.  To me it looked no worse than some mornings at breakfast in the aft dining room when a ship was docking using the thrusters and without table cloths the dishes and glasses , steak sauce and hot sauce bottles danced across the table and landed on the floor.  ABC reported that some people flew home from the Dominican Republic because they were too traumatized to continue the trip.

Edited November 1, 2018 by DebJ14

[Son of a son of a ...]

The pics show some serious flatware breakage.  Hopefully Cheng can shed some light.

[Lottacruises]

I'm sure it was a great cruise, minus that one minute.

[Essiesmom]

It was mentioned a few days ago in the middle of another thread. 

 

Post from Monday:

 

EM

Edited November 2, 2018 by Essiesmom

[riclop]

Yes it should of been scary.

[Cruiser 4 Life 66]

Pics, video, and Captain's note here.

Looked a little more serious than when a ship is docking with thrusters.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6342569/Carnival-Cruise-Line-apologizes-ship-lists-just-hours-leaving-Florida-port.html

[chengkp75]

Okay, here's my take on this.  First off, I call BS on the stabilizers causing this.  Stabilizers do not stop rolling, they merely slow it down to a comfortable level, and no fin stabilizer existing on a ship today has the force able to make a ship list and continue to list.  I will pretty much bet the farm that this is exactly the same thing that has happened to a couple of Princess ships a couple of years ago, and to the Norwegian Sky back in 2002, that I know about, and likely several other cases.  This is "turn induced heeling".  When a ship turns, there is a centrifugal force that tries to keep the ship moving in a straight line, and since the turning force is underwater where the azipods or rudders are, the force acts up higher on the ship, leaning it out, away from the turn.  The faster the ship is going, and the more the rudders are turned, the more force is produced to heel the ship over.  This is why cruise ships (and really any ship) going at sea speeds will limit helm maneuvers to only a few degrees of rudder, unless it is an emergency.  My guess is that there was either a glitch in the autopilot, or an "operator error" when changing course while on autopilot that caused a significant helm order from the autopilot to the steering, and this caused the heeling, especially since it lasted only a minute, as the bridge officer would have noticed the error immediately and corrected.

 

Plates and such will start to slide at around 15* of heel, nowhere near a dangerous angle.  The Norwegian Sky incident I noted above heeled the ship about 30*, virtually every plate and glass onboard was broken, and over 100 guests were sent to hospital, some for broken bones, in Vancouver, so if there were no injuries, this was not a serious heel.

 

As for the comment that a glitch that causes ballast to be moved too quickly can cause a heel like this, that just isn't so, you physically cannot move hundreds of tons of water that quickly.  This was most likely the other significant cause of heeling, "wind induced heel", where the ship changes course, and the wind is now more or less on the side of the ship, and the ship acts like a sail, and heels over from the force of the wind.  Ballast, fuel, and drinking water will then be needed to be moved to correct the heel, but this takes a while, as again, you can't move tons of liquids as quickly as the ship can heel over.  Then with the liquids loaded asymmetrically to counteract the wind, if the ship changes course again, or the wind dies down, that asymmetrical load suddenly causes the ship to heel over the other way, until the liquid can be moved back.

 

As a note, cruise ships carry very little ballast, and major shifts to correct heeling is done with fuel and drinking water.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, hubofhockey said:

There's no political angle here. How does impartiality factor in here?  Not sure what you're getting at.  It's pretty clear to everyone that the Carnival Sunshine had a technical problem.  You say "stuff happens" but stuff is more likely to happen on older ships than on newer ones.

I don't agree that "stuff is more likely to happen on an older ship".  The standards for maintenance and seaworthiness are the same for new ships and old ships.  I will say that it costs more to maintain an older ship to required standards than it does a newer ship, but I won't blanket agree that older ships are more prone to problems.

[bury me at sea]

Thank you chengkp75 for the explanation.

 

I was on a sailing once that listed a bit.  Some dishes slid, the chandelier shook.  It startled us but it certainly wasn't scary.

[sanger727]

I was on a ship once that did this. It was early morning so think most people slept through it. I happened to be on the pool deck. This causing a ‘panic’ is crazy. It truly was no big deal. Agree with the comparison to being in an earth quake. At the time it was surprising and caused you to say ‘what the F was that’. But it was quickly over with no real harm done. It’s only a big deal if people make it into one.

[Robo1098]

The news started off with Carnival cruise ship on its side for an hour. LOL 

[crewsweeper]

Thank you CHENG75...Always good for cutting through the hype and pandemonium.

[Melissalcsw]

Well I am completed excited for my upcoming Sunshine cruise :)

[hubofhockey]

54 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't agree that "stuff is more likely to happen on an older ship".  The standards for maintenance and seaworthiness are the same for new ships and old ships.  I will say that it costs more to maintain an older ship to required standards than it does a newer ship, but I won't blanket agree that older ships are more prone to problems.

Ships and component parts have useful lives.  While there are standards for maintenance, I can't be convinced that these problems are as likely to happen on new ships as they are on older ones.  I am not bashing older ships.  My last two were on older M class ships on Celebrity and I will take the trade off of only cruising with 2,000 passengers over 4,000 any day.  The only exception would be the Royal Caribbean Oasis class, where the draw is the entertainment.  Other than that, I like the older smaller ships.  Other than the boutique lines, nobody is building them.  

 

 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, hubofhockey said:

Ships and component parts have useful lives.  While there are standards for maintenance, I can't be convinced that these problems are as likely to happen on new ships as they are on older ones.  I am not bashing older ships.  My last two were on older M class ships on Celebrity and I will take the trade off of only cruising with 2,000 passengers over 4,000 any day.  The only exception would be the Royal Caribbean Oasis class, where the draw is the entertainment.  Other than that, I like the older smaller ships.  Other than the boutique lines, nobody is building them.  

 

 

Ships and components do have useful lives, and the main concept of preventative maintenance, a requirement for ships, is to replace those components before that life expectancy expires.  That is why it costs more to keep the older ship maintained, over the newer ship, as more of those components are reaching their life expectancy.

[LuckyStar]

13 hours ago, Out of Iowa said:

due to a stabilizer problem, according to a note to passengers; on the evening TV news here, they reported it lasted just one minute....another report said "hours"

 

https://nypost.com/2018/11/01/pure-chaos-as-carnival-cruise-ship-tilts-on-its-side-at-sea/

 

 

 

Maybe this will be the kick start that some need to take muster drills more seriously and maybe get there in a more timely manner.  

[sanmarcosman]

14 minutes ago, LuckyStar said:

 

Maybe this will be the kick start that some need to take muster drills more seriously and maybe get there in a more timely manner.  

Hope springs eternal.

[nyo1011]

does make you stop and think and remember you are on a ship at sea. my family has only been on one cruise. I have two teenage boys who roamed the ship all day. It was great! Party all day! biggest concern was chair hogs!  We are going on our second cruise on the Horizon in June. Last night we had a conversation about possible scenarios that could happen on a ship and what to do in each case and having a meeting place. I know we have a mustard station but last time ours was the dining room might be difficult to find each other if everyone else is meeting there.

 

How fast does a ship list? what if you are standing at the railing? Can you be thrown off?    

[Micahs Grandad]

49 minutes ago, nyo1011 said:

does make you stop and think and remember you are on a ship at sea. my family has only been on one cruise. I have two teenage boys who roamed the ship all day. It was great! Party all day! biggest concern was chair hogs!  We are going on our second cruise on the Horizon in June. Last night we had a conversation about possible scenarios that could happen on a ship and what to do in each case and having a meeting place. I know we have a mustard station but last time ours was the dining room might be difficult to find each other if everyone else is meeting there.

 

How fast does a ship list? what if you are standing at the railing? Can you be thrown off?    

 

[Micahs Grandad]

Not likely to have a severe list but stuff does happen and it could happen real quickly.

[woodman]

I love the post hopping that more people will pay attention to the muster drill. If the ship must be abandoned then you will see pure panic and all the muster drills in the world will not get you to orderly proceed to your cabin and get your life preserver and then proceed to your assigned muster station. LOL  Most people will jump into the first life boat they get to. Sorry I have seen a mob in panic mode.

[Tapi]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Plates and such will start to slide at around 15* of heel, nowhere near a dangerous angle.  The Norwegian Sky incident I noted above heeled the ship about 30*, virtually every plate and glass onboard was broken, and over 100 guests were sent to hospital, some for broken bones, in Vancouver, so if there were no injuries, this was not a serious heel.

chengkp75: 

 

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I’ve always wondered what would be considered a dangerous angle on cruise ships. My expertise is with airplanes, where a standard rate of turn is at a 30 degree bank angle and which is uneventful and causes very little reaction from passengers. Your explanation helps me understand how differently a cruise ship reacts to the laws of physics. 

[CruisinCrow]

12 hours ago, Cruiser 4 Life 66 said:

Pics, video, and Captain's note here.

Looked a little more serious than when a ship is docking with thrusters.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6342569/Carnival-Cruise-Line-apologizes-ship-lists-just-hours-leaving-Florida-port.html

 

That looks pretty bad to me!