Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[cruiserider444]

20 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Then cancel your booking, unless you're speaking in past-tense.

No, I have one in July, so we'll see if it even sails out. But I have trip insurance and will cancel if need be.

[Palmetto Pilot]

42 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Don't expect a multi-billion dollar company to roll over.

Oh they are going to roll over, and they are going to take it too. Have you read the article or the .pdf of the over 800 recorded violations. 

 

Here is a direct quote from the judge. 

 

“Judge Seitz regretted not being able to put Carnival Corp execs Micky Arison & Donald Arnold in jail, floated banning their 102 cruise ships from US ports for possible probation violations.”

“Obviously they talk the talk but they're not walking the walk.”

[bury me at sea]

1 hour ago, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Don't expect a multi-billion dollar company to roll over.

 

What alternatives do you think might be available to a multi-billion dollar corporation which, after having been found guilty of unlawful dumping, proceeded to violate the terms of probation during the first year of a multi-year probationary period?

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Don't expect a multi-billion dollar company to roll over.

 

This isn't some every day claim against them by an individual.  This is the US government, who has already levied them the highest fine ever for this type of violation and placed them on probation.  Continuing these actions, coupled with doing so inside a national park....yeah....Thorncroft had it right.  Not rolling over would be a death sentence in this case. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Aquahound

[HappyJack33]

2 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Don't expect a multi-billion dollar company to roll over.

I sure doesn’t sounds like the Judge is going to play.

 

“The people at the top are treating this as a gnat,” Seitz said in court, according to the Herald. “If I could, I would give all the members of the executive committee a visit to the detention center for a couple of days. It’s amazing how that helps people come to focus on reality.”

[scoobikins]

I can understand the judge's frustration and anger, but I think folks calling for the execs to be keelhauled and hung from the yardarm should look at one little phrase she uttered: "If I could....". If she really could, wouldn't she already have done so?

 

I look for Carnival to pay through the nose, and rightly so if the accusations are true.

[jimbo5544]

29 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, since none of those people decided that the hearing was sufficiently important to show up.  Merely more arrogance on the part of Carnival management.  I can tell you from personal experience that corporate officers can be found guilty of felony charges for this, and then it is up to the judge to determine whether detention or merely "house arrest" with an ankle bracelet is warranted.

 

As for whether or not the corporate officers can be found liable, here is an excerpt from the Maritime Executive magazine:

 

"In criminal maritime cases, companies and individuals are prosecuted not only for the underlying substantive environmental violations, but also for post-incident conduct involving false statements and obstruction of justice.  The substantive environmental crimes range from misdemeanors, based on negligence or strict liability, to felonies, premised on evidence of knowing conduct.  In almost all of the maritime environmental prosecutions, the focus is on those crewmembers, shoreside managers, and companies responsible for the illegal discharges or for the falsification of the ship’s records to conceal such discharges.  The vessel owner or operator can be found criminally liable if the employee who committed the violation was acting within the scope of his authority and he believed he was acting, even in part, for the benefit of the company."

 

The last sentence, bolding is mine, shows that corporate officers (vessel owner or operator) can be found criminally liable for acts by their employees.

 

Even more far reaching is the next sentence in this article:

 

"Corporate criminal liability can attach even where the employee acted in contravention of company policies. Shoreside corporate officers with managerial authority over the activities giving rise to the violation also can be held liable if they had actual knowledge (or avoided knowledge) of the criminal activity and failed to prevent it from occurring. These theories of liability put corporate officers and senior managers at risk of criminal liability should violations occur."

 

Note the mention of "avoided knowledge".

 

 

We have discussed it before, but from what you posted “managerial authority” is the key from my jaundiced view.  

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

We have discussed it before, but from what you posted “managerial authority” is the key from my jaundiced view.  

Managerial authority is related to the second quote.  Note that the first quote mentions the vessel owner or operator, both of which are Carnival Corp, and by extension its corporate officers.  Maritime law is a special subset of laws, and the criminal liability of the corporate officers is different than other corporations.

[jimbo5544]

43 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Managerial authority is related to the second quote.  Note that the first quote mentions the vessel owner or operator, both of which are Carnival Corp, and by extension its corporate officers.  Maritime law is a special subset of laws, and the criminal liability of the corporate officers is different than other corporations.

So with all that said, do you really think a corporate officer will be convicted?

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

So with all that said, do you really think a corporate officer will be convicted?

Yep.  And one who is directly in the cross-hairs is the retired USCG admiral who was brought onboard specifically to head up compliance.

Edited April 19, 2019 by chengkp75

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep.

appreciate the answer

 

 

[coevan]

37 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep.  And one who is directly in the cross-hairs is the retired USCG admiral who was brought onboard specifically to head up compliance.

 

 

As usual, the clearest answer.

Only chenkp and sailors will get the humor. I was sailing into Charlotte Amalie and am pulled over for a routine inspection. I got written up for not having a discharge stick in my companionway. I said to the CG officer " I need a sticker on my own boat reminding me not to discharge oil overboard. We both chuckled.

[silversneakers]

On 4/11/2019 at 11:03 PM, TNcruising02 said:

She wants to singlehandedly take down an entire company.  When a person or people who work for a large company commit crimes, those people are prosecuted and/or the company pays a huge fine. A judge doesn't take down the entire company and punish everyone.  It's crazy.  I think the judge is on a power trip and it's an irrational threat.

Hopefully, reasonable and appropriate measures will prevail that will make those in charge and those responsible accountable so that something like this does not happen again.

I think Carnival will be tasked with undertaking the funding of a huge environmental program managed by the States or some worldwide organization...but not managed by Carnival.  

[PhillyFan33579]

19 hours ago, cruiserider444 said:

disappointed in Carnival. I wish I didn't book my cruise with them and most likely won't cruise w them again. 

 

If you feel strongly about this issue, which I assume you don’t, you would have already cancelled your cruise on Carnival.  I am a big believer in actions speak much louder than words. 

[jimbo5544]

13 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep.  And one who is directly in the cross-hairs is the retired USCG admiral who was brought onboard specifically to head up compliance.

I had not seen your answer (after you edited it). I might be nervous if I was him as well.......

[jimbo5544]

20 hours ago, cruiserider444 said:

disappointed in Carnival. I wish I didn't book my cruise with them and most likely won't cruise w them again. 

Based upon your posting history, it is not a huge deviation from your sailing history.  I can understand your thoughts, you might want to see other violators (past history) if you draw a line in the sand on this, your choices might be quite a few less lines.....  All that said in whatever the choice is, happy cruising.

[Keys2Heaven]

19 hours ago, Palmetto Pilot said:

Oh they are going to roll over, and they are going to take it too. Have you read the article or the .pdf of the over 800 recorded violations. 

 

Here is a direct quote from the judge. 

 

“Judge Seitz regretted not being able to put Carnival Corp execs Micky Arison & Donald Arnold in jail, floated banning their 102 cruise ships from US ports for possible probation violations.”

“Obviously they talk the talk but they're not walking the walk.”

 

Pay a larger fine, fire someone...yep, probable actions. But rolling over...nah.

[Thorncroft]

21 hours ago, cruiserider444 said:

disappointed in Carnival. I wish I didn't book my cruise with them and most likely won't cruise w them again. 

 

I don't think that Carnival, the cruise line, is implicated in this.  It's Carnival, the corporation, only because they have oversight over the cruise lines under their umbrella that ARE caught up in this scandal; specifically Princess. You can probably cruise CCL with a clear conscience, knowing the CCL is leading the green wave with their elimination of plastic straws and pens. You'll quickly recognize hypocrisy when you're served a drink with a paper straw in a disposable plastic cup, like McDonald's does. LOL

[evandbob]

25 minutes ago, Thorncroft said:

 

I don't think that Carnival, the cruise line, is implicated in this.  It's Carnival, the corporation, only because they have oversight over the cruise lines under their umbrella that ARE caught up in this scandal; specifically Princess. You can probably cruise CCL with a clear conscience, knowing the CCL is leading the green wave with their elimination of plastic straws and pens. You'll quickly recognize hypocrisy when you're served a drink with a paper straw in a disposable plastic cup, like McDonald's does. LOL

The Elation is cited in the list of probationary violations.  It seems like a fleet wide condemnation of all Carnival corporation ships.

 

As far as hypocrisy, change takes time.  Single use plastic items will all be banned, just one item at a time.  You have to start somewhere when effecting change of this huge nature.

[Palmetto Pilot]

53 minutes ago, Thorncroft said:

 

I don't think that Carnival, the cruise line, is implicated in this.  It's Carnival, the corporation, only because they have oversight over the cruise lines under their umbrella that ARE caught up in this scandal; specifically Princess. You can probably cruise CCL with a clear conscience, knowing the CCL is leading the green wave with their elimination of plastic straws and pens. You'll quickly recognize hypocrisy when you're served a drink with a paper straw in a disposable plastic cup, like McDonald's does. LOL

Carnival ships are specifically named, along with HAL, Princess and P&O

[Thorncroft]

2 minutes ago, Palmetto Pilot said:

Carnival ships are specifically named, along with HAL, Princess and P&O

 

Well, 6 out of 10 lines are mostly in compliance.  Sounds like a good average to me.  LOL

[Aquahound]

16 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep.  And one who is directly in the cross-hairs is the retired USCG admiral who was brought onboard specifically to head up compliance.

 

Interesting piece of the puzzle, isn't it? 😉

[Aeeo]

On 4/11/2019 at 10:33 AM, bowlinmoe said:

BS.  This is such a bluff.

 

The US economy benefits so much from the cruise industry.  They won't stop Carnival from docking here.

 

So True, To many cruise ports in the USA, depend on the revenue from Carnival and its other Branded Ships.

BP still in the Gulf of Mexico!

Edited April 20, 2019 by Aeeo

[SRQbeachgirl]

Does anyone know how many ships in total are under the Carnival Corp umbrella vs how many and which specific ships are named for repeated violations?

 

I'm curious because--if these continued violations are the result of a top-down culture of flaunting the laws--you would think the violations would be widespread across all the lines and ships. On the other hand, if the repeated violations are limited to a couple of ships in each cruise line, it would seem to be more indicative of specific persons on specific ships saying "pfft--I'm not wasting my time doing things the hard (right) way."

 

As an executive manager in a large organization, I know that, even when we provide proper direction, there will always be people below us who are too lazy/stubborn/indifferent...that they aren't going to go out of their way to do something if it means extra work. Those people have to be weeded out, but that is not a quick process.

[greykitty]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:39 AM, Keys2Heaven said:

 

Don't expect a multi-billion dollar company to roll over.

I'm wondering if that's what Arthur Andersen told themselves too....