Rare Copper10-8 Posted April 12, 2019 #51 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Quite true, John, but this goes way beyond just one oil record book infraction. This appears over several lines and several ships, and just points to a corporate culture of either "we don't want to know" or " we want the crew to make the issue disappear". It really is sad. If it had been one incident of oil record book falsification, it would have resulted in that person losing their job and likely the Chief as well, but that would have been it. It is obvious to me, having worked under a court appointed auditor, that he feels he was consistently lied to or obfuscated from doing his job (blowing smoke up his ***) and that no one, either shipboard or shoreside felt the need to following non-conformity reporting. You're 100% correct as usual Cheng. You know there's going to be a DOJ investigation into these practices and we'll see how far up the ladder it goes! Stupidity! And for what? Just shaking my head 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fouremco Posted April 12, 2019 #52 Share Posted April 12, 2019 18 minutes ago, JeffElizabeth said: This would hurt the Alaskan economy for sure, and Florida, possibly New England and Canada too. Or it could be a boost to our economy as a segment of the fleet redeploys to Canadian waters. There's lots of opportunity here for expanded cruise itineraries on both coasts, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare HappyInVan Posted April 12, 2019 #53 Share Posted April 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, Fouremco said: Or it could be a boost to our economy as a segment of the fleet redeploys to Canadian waters. There's lots of opportunity here for expanded cruise itineraries on both coasts, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador. +1. But, I won't be on any of those ships! 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despegue Posted April 12, 2019 #54 Share Posted April 12, 2019 The sheer amount of planning in case of redeployment is not realistic short term, IF there would be a ban, which I very much doubt, it would devastate Carnival Corp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Copper10-8 Posted April 12, 2019 #55 Share Posted April 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, Fouremco said: Or it could be a boost to our economy as a segment of the fleet redeploys to Canadian waters. There's lots of opportunity here for expanded cruise itineraries on both coasts, particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador. I wouldn't mind a cruise from Montreal to Quebec City, Saguenay, Baie-Comeau, Cornerbrook, St. John's and St. Pierre and Miquelon, France and back, but I don't believe a total ban on U.S. ports is going to happen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fouremco Posted April 12, 2019 #56 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Copper10-8 said: I wouldn't mind a cruise from Montreal to Quebec City, Saguenay, Baie-Comeau, Cornerbrook, St. John's and St. Pierre and Miquelon, France and back, but I don't believe a total ban on U.S. ports is going to happen I'm with you on both counts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankc98376 Posted April 12, 2019 #57 Share Posted April 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said: I wouldn't mind a cruise from Montreal to Quebec City, Saguenay, Baie-Comeau, Cornerbrook, St. John's and St. Pierre and Miquelon, France and back, but I don't believe a total ban on U.S. ports is going to happen I agree 100%. This would be appealed and wouldn't surprise me if new legislation is drafted to lower the requirements as environmental concerns don't seem to be at the top of the current priority list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxonboy Posted April 12, 2019 #58 Share Posted April 12, 2019 20 hours ago, chengkp75 said: While the one instance of failure of shipboard personnel to perform an environmental task properly is serious, what is far more disturbing to me is the total lack of consideration or responsibility at the corporate level towards environmental issues. Because the violations range across the whole spectrum of pollution (oil, gray water, ballast, plastic), this shows that there is no environmental culture in Carnival lines (sorry John). As I've said on the thread in the Carnival forum, I have worked for two companies that were placed on probation by the DOJ for pollution violations (NCL and a tanker company), and both have turned their culture around to being held as models of environmental guardianship, and the tanker company's environmental compliance plan instituted as a part of the plea deal and probation is now held up by the DOJ as the model that all subsequent violators must follow. This continued disregard for the environment across the Carnival lines is totally despicable. Agree Sadly, I have had business before the federal judges and would say that they do not threaten. They are not to be ignored. What should this judge do to enforce her rulings? Foreign flagged vessels are hard to put in jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Copper10-8 Posted April 12, 2019 #59 Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, jaxonboy said: Agree Sadly, I have had business before the federal judges and would say that they do not threaten. They are not to be ignored. What should this judge do to enforce her rulings? Foreign flagged vessels are hard to put in jail. Pure speculation, but me thinks you'll see an extension of the probation period, poss. to ten years, heavy fines, and quite possibly some incarcerations of certain individuals for violation of probation 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myjillian Posted April 12, 2019 #60 Share Posted April 12, 2019 We are in a new America...lying has become a way of life for some people ...😞..money seems to be able to buy those who have it anything they want. Hopefully , something will be decided that will be in the interest of our Nation rather than someones deep pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted April 12, 2019 #61 Share Posted April 12, 2019 5 hours ago, frankc98376 said: The economic damage if all of CCL's ships were prevented docking in any US port could be devastating to both ports and local business in the ports. CCL ships are a huge part of Alaska's summer revenue. We have at least two HAL ships, one CCL ship, two Princess ships and the occasional Seabourn ship in Seattle every week in the summer. I have a Nephew and his family who are Anchorage residents. He and I have discussed how Alaskans view tourism. It's a "love/hate" relationship. They "love" the money that is brought into their economy. They "hate" the crowds that Summer brings. This point of view was vividly in display at the very start of the 2018 Alaska cruise season. I was watching the docking of the first ship visiting Juneau on Port ofJuneau's web cam (audio on). It was a HAL ship. The Westerdam, I think? Someone in microphone range said as the ship tied up: "Well, there goes the neighborhood." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammiedawg Posted April 12, 2019 #62 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Alaska is the crown jewel of cruising. Combined with land tours this is the very best travel experience. And we have been all over the world. Sorry but Canadian ports and regions will not have the same appeal. Courts will consider the economic impact in Alaska and they will not ban carnival brands from these ports. But they need to impose massive fines and glacier bay permits need to be pulled. Incarcerations should be on the table. Alaskan waters are sacred to us. So many trips there. We were planning to take the extended family there as soon as the babies get a little older. This story has upset me to no end. The more I read ....... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voyageur9 Posted April 12, 2019 #63 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, sammiedawg said: .... they need to impose massive fines and glacier bay permits need to be pulled. Incarcerations should be on the table. Prison time for senior executives involved in cover-ups of criminals acts -- be they VW execs cheating on emission standards or CCL lying about dumping waste -- would quickly put an end to this vile and felonious behavior. And not country club incarceration -- a few weeks in a regular state prison or federal prison with the quite brutal pecking order would be very instructive. Just as tax evasion is felony stealing from the entire community so destroying the commons is an attack on the entire community. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankc98376 Posted April 12, 2019 #64 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Likely not a good time to be in upper management at the CCL companies. Those at the top of CCL will likely be pointing the proverbial bus toward those below them (at least that is usually what happens) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir PMP Posted April 12, 2019 #65 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Copper10-8 said: This is what pees me off the most on this scam! As crew, we were all (mandatory - electronic roll taken) shown a video in early 2017 about the August 2013 Caribbean Princess pollution incident (illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems) incl, photos of that contraption. The video started off with speeches by Stein Kruse, Keith Taylor (former USCG) and the lead attorney of the company about what an incredible stupid move this was by the Caribbean Princess engineering staff, the explanation of the five year probation incl. surprise audits, and the fact that this incident and the subsequent five-year probation period was to be taken extremely serious. Less than two years later, some rocket scientist within the Westerdam engineering staff falsifies maintenance records involving the oil content monitoring system in September 2018 How frickin' stupid can one be? Yes, 5 years probation and 2 years in, we get to hear this, I believe the upper management, should resign and replaced by people who know how to take care of the cruise business as well as the environment.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir PMP Posted April 12, 2019 #66 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, JeffElizabeth said: This would hurt the Alaskan economy for sure, and Florida, possibly New England and Canada too. The impact on the economy should take last place here, destroying a pristine environment like Glacier Bay with dirty water should be everyone's main concern.. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted April 12, 2019 #67 Share Posted April 12, 2019 22 hours ago, chengkp75 said: While the one instance of failure of shipboard personnel to perform an environmental task properly is serious, what is far more disturbing to me is the total lack of consideration or responsibility at the corporate level towards environmental issues. Because the violations range across the whole spectrum of pollution (oil, gray water, ballast, plastic), this shows that there is no environmental culture in Carnival lines (sorry John). As I've said on the thread in the Carnival forum, I have worked for two companies that were placed on probation by the DOJ for pollution violations (NCL and a tanker company), and both have turned their culture around to being held as models of environmental guardianship, and the tanker company's environmental compliance plan instituted as a part of the plea deal and probation is now held up by the DOJ as the model that all subsequent violators must follow. This continued disregard for the environment across the Carnival lines is totally despicable. 2 hours ago, chengkp75 said: Quite true, John, but this goes way beyond just one oil record book infraction. This appears over several lines and several ships, and just points to a corporate culture of either "we don't want to know" or " we want the crew to make the issue disappear". It really is sad. If it had been one incident of oil record book falsification, it would have resulted in that person losing their job and likely the Chief as well, but that would have been it. It is obvious to me, having worked under a court appointed auditor, that he feels he was consistently lied to or obfuscated from doing his job (blowing smoke up his ***) and that no one, either shipboard or shoreside felt the need to following non-conformity reporting. This reminds one of ..Hey we are too big to fail."........did not work for GM. It may be that the size of CCL has considered that it will not get slapped." Were this, an opening allegation thats one thing, however, CCL was on probation in order to avoid an even more severe penalty. When one is on probation one tends to toe the line not push the boundaries . CCL is clearly playing chicken with the court. Thats my take 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted April 12, 2019 #68 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, jaxonboy said: Agree Sadly, I have had business before the federal judges and would say that they do not threaten. They are not to be ignored. What should this judge do to enforce her rulings? Foreign flagged vessels are hard to put in jail. Not so....a vessel must get port clearance. request a pilot, to enter. and the USCG and Customs BP enforce that. Foreign flag fishing ships fishing without permission have lost their ship/ Not often but it happens. Hawaii is a case in point...A foreign flag vessel would not dare to enter those waters under the Jones act and Passenger service act. without permission. NCL bribed Hawaii to get a special deal for 1 NCL ship, big time to get around the Jones ACt. When I last was in HAwaii only Matson and Horizion had free permission because they were US flag. CCL is playing with fire...not even half way into their probation..... Judges don't like that... It makes them mad...real mad. Only the supreme court can change a ticked off Judges verdict/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted April 12, 2019 #69 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, JeffElizabeth said: This would hurt the Alaskan economy for sure, and Florida, possibly New England and Canada too. There are a large number of cruise lines who would fill the void very fast RCCL-.Viking, etc... CCL is not the only show in town. To me, just my opinion, The court will be looking to make a example for ALL to see and take heed of. All sorts of things. could happen, Maybe force CCL to breakup ? Some sort of serious result..... NCL is the golden boy in all this they would love to see CCL get clobbered.... a lot of other lines too would welcome it. Might be a lot of lobbying behind the scenes.... It will be interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffElizabeth Posted April 12, 2019 #70 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Wonder if cruise ships will start to become persona non grata due in part to these violations. Give more excuses for places like Bonaire to ban them. Or restrict how many passengers can come per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ANGELCAT Posted April 12, 2019 #71 Share Posted April 12, 2019 I have to wonder if this information had made it to the Amsterdam yet , I wonder if Orlando and the rest of the top brass will still go ahead with the big event at the Rijksmussen . I believe it’s been mentioned in WCB thread from the world cruise that Hazel Donald is onboard for the full voyage, Tough to be her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fouremco Posted April 12, 2019 #72 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, sammiedawg said: Alaska is the crown jewel of cruising. Combined with land tours this is the very best travel experience. And we have been all over the world. Sorry but Canadian ports and regions will not have the same appeal. It would be interesting to start a thread on CC members' favourite cruise destinations. I suspect that a lot of different locations would get votes as the best. I certainly wouldn't consider Alaska as the crown jewel of cruising, but maybe you meant the crown jewel of US cruising. BTW, while Canadian ports and regions may not have much appeal for you, in their article entitled Best Cruise Destinations for 2017, the editors of Smart Travel ranked Quebec City as the best cruise destination in the U.S. & Canada. I'm sure that there are other articles listing Alaska, but it certainly isn't unanimous. https://www.smartertravel.com/best-cruise-destinations-2017/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted April 12, 2019 #73 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Of all the years for CCL's Annual Meeting to be held in the UK! I hope that our friends in the UK and Europe who attend this meeting will raise questions during the meeting that will provide more than "boilerplate" and "analyst pleasing" talk from Mr. Arison and Mr. Donald. Pollution of our seas--just as is global warming--is a very serious issue. Most of us will probably not live along enough to suffer the effects of such. But, our children's children--and their progeny--probably will. Is it not our generation's responsibility to care for the Planet on which we were born? Is it not our generation's responsibility to help the next generation(s) to enjoy a better life than we have had? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VennDiagram Posted April 12, 2019 #74 Share Posted April 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Fouremco said: in their article entitled Best Cruise Destinations for 2017, the editors of Smart Travel ranked Quebec City as the best cruise destination in the U.S. & Canada. Thanks, I will use that information almost immediately 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted April 12, 2019 #75 Share Posted April 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Fouremco said: It would be interesting to start a thread on CC members' favourite cruise destinations. I suspect that a lot of different locations would get votes as the best. I certainly wouldn't consider Alaska as the crown jewel of cruising, but maybe you meant the crown jewel of US cruising. A very good idea for a thread, but the results would be impacted by the cruise itineraries that those who participate have experienced. Often, by those whom I meet on a cruise as well as by friends, I am asked "what's your favorite port"? I'd be hard pressed to name a "crown jewel" of cruising that I have experienced. Some regions of our Planet have some negatives for me. But, that's a personal opinion/experience. Far more regions provide memories of "I'd like another visit there." A "Crown Jewel"? That is, I think a very personal opinion. Where would Alaska rank for me? After many visits to our 49th State, I still feel that I have just scratched the surface for one who lives in the lower 48. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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