Zuiderdam prevented from leaving port by protesters

[twodjs]

4 hours ago, jimnjake said:

Carnival, who owns HA was already fined 20 million dollars for polluting and then dumped gray water into Glacier Bay NATIONAL PARK and plastic in the Bahamas. I was on this ship which was protested and I say good for those kids.

If you doubt want protestors don't dump crap in our oceans and national protected parks. 

Most posters have missed what I believe is the reason for their protest. Not ships or shipping in general but Carnival Corporation for their admitted violation and continued dumping of pollution into our oceans. They got away with an additional 20 million fine - a drop in the bucket for them. As someone pointed out early in this thread, the peaceful protest was designed to cause financial hardship to supporters (passengers) of this corporate umbrella. It worked. All this anger should be directed at the cause of this protest - the management of Carninval Corporation. Even corporations "too big to fail" will learn that you must be sincere good stewards of our planet or face the concequences of the supporters of Mother Nature. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, fatcat04 said:

I was not trying to escalate anything but in a world where a few zealots with box cutters on airplanes can kill thousands, I think many of us do indeed see the potential for the worst far more easily than we ever imagined we needed to or want to. Forgive me if my worries over the safety of HAL's fine officers, crew and her passengers causes me to wonder about real world possibilities. 

Perhaps if the "few zealots with box cutters" had actually boarded the ship, had managed to overpower the Captain and crew, gotten power up and driven the ship into something, you might have a real world possibility.  I live in the real world of maritime security, and those protesters in boats and even hanging from the mooring lines presented not the slightest threat to the ship, but perhaps caused some "fiscal terrorism" by causing financial harm to the line and the passengers.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

 

Is detaining people and a ship by private citizens lawful in Germany ?

Really, this is no more than if they had blocked the roads to stop the tour buses from getting to the port. 

[ScoBoo]

13 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

The ship's master has responsibility for ship security, you are correct, but not for port/shore-side security; once again, that portion rests solely with the port authority. All that is spelled out in a DOS (Declaration of Ship Security) which is exchanged and signed off, upon arrival by the ship's security officer and his shore-side counterpart, the Kiel port authority PFSO (Port Facility Security Officer). It spells out exactly who is responsible for what while the ship is in port. Access to the ship via the gangway is the responsibility of the master through the ship's SECO. The dock outside the ship, and access to it, belongs to the port authority.

 

ZUDM's master might have raised the ship's MARSEC level to 2 or even to level 3  which would have meant, among others things, raising the gangway, closing the Marshaling area as well as any provision and water break doors, and placing so called "pirate gates" on both mooring decks, all to prevent access and a breach of security by unauthorized persons. Doing that however, would not have prevented two morons from attaching themselves to two of the fwd mooring lines. It would not have prevented that small flotilla of rubber boats with "shivering girls" inside from surrounding Zuidy's bow. The only entity that could/should have prevented that would have been the Kiel port authority, i.e. port or private security working for them. That did not occur leaving it up to the German Bundespolizei and/or Landespolizei Schleswig-Holstein to take care of business by removing these individuals which is what ultimately occurred, allowing ZUDM to depart for Copenhagen with delay.

 

Protesting/free speech for your causes is fine. Attaching yourself to and/or surrounding, by rubber boats, a ship with up to 1,916 passengers, the majority of which are flying all over the world to get home the next day, is not

 

Copper 10-8, Thank you for your constructive comments and for adding additional details and context.

[scubacruiserx2]

8 minutes ago, twodjs said:

Most posters have missed what I believe is the reason for their protest. Not ships or shipping in general but Carnival Corporation for their admitted violation and continued dumping of pollution into our oceans. They got away with an additional 20 million fine - a drop in the bucket for them. As someone pointed out early in this thread, the peaceful protest was designed to cause financial hardship to supporters (passengers) of this corporate umbrella. It worked. All this anger should be directed at the cause of this protest - the management of Carninval Corporation. Even corporations "too big to fail" will learn that you must be sincere good stewards of our planet or face the concequences of the supporters of Mother Nature. 

 

No , this group wants to eliminate cruise ships . Their flag had a skull over a cruise ship .

 

https://www.newsweek.com/zuiderdam-cruise-ship-trapped-port-climate-change-activists-kiel-germany-1443051

[fatcat04]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Perhaps if the "few zealots with box cutters" had actually boarded the ship, had managed to overpower the Captain and crew, gotten power up and driven the ship into something, you might have a real world possibility.  I live in the real world of maritime security, and those protesters in boats and even hanging from the mooring lines presented not the slightest threat to the ship, but perhaps caused some "fiscal terrorism" by causing financial harm to the line and the passengers.

You are the expert. Had I been on that ship,  I would have been frightened while it was happening and angry afterwards, and not at Carnival Corp. There are better ways to protest. 

[scubacruiserx2]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Really, this is no more than if they had blocked the roads to stop the tour buses from getting to the port. 

 

Is that also legal ? 

[fatcat04]

1 minute ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

No , this group wants to eliminate cruise ships . Their flag had a skull over a cruise ship .

 

https://www.newsweek.com/zuiderdam-cruise-ship-trapped-port-climate-change-activists-kiel-germany-1443051

Seems so.

fta: "We will not tolerate the operation and certainly a further expansion of cruises."

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, twodjs said:

Most posters have missed what I believe is the reason for their protest. Not ships or shipping in general but Carnival Corporation for their admitted violation and continued dumping of pollution into our oceans. They got away with an additional 20 million fine - a drop in the bucket for them. As someone pointed out early in this thread, the peaceful protest was designed to cause financial hardship to supporters (passengers) of this corporate umbrella. It worked. All this anger should be directed at the cause of this protest - the management of Carninval Corporation. Even corporations "too big to fail" will learn that you must be sincere good stewards of our planet or face the concequences of the supporters of Mother Nature. 

Where did you see that this was the reason for the protest.  The only article I've seen is the one linked earlier, which had some confusing reasons for the protest:  global warming melts the icebergs, and the crew are paid too little.  I've seen no mention of the Carnival Corp fine.  And, you forget the potential fines if Carnival fails again to meet benchmarks in their compliance, from $1 million/day for the first 10 days and then $10 million/day, and these fines are open ended until the probation period is over, so this could get very costly to Carnival, and perhaps is a better way to incentivize them than one single fine, which didn't seem to do much good last time.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

Is that also legal ? 

No, but how do you know that the protesters were not arrested and charged for delaying the ship, just as they would be for a non-sanctioned protest in the streets.  People do illegal things all the time.  Who I find fault with are the German authorities for not responding to this sooner.

Edited June 10, 2019 by chengkp75

[fatcat04]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 Who I find fault with are the German authorities for not responding to this sooner.

Yes, exactly. This went on for a long time, far too long.  I do not know how large a cruise port this is as I have never had the opportunity to visit  there but I can't imagine such a prolonged protest being tolerated at say Port Everglades. But then again, in a smaller US cruise port, I wonder if this same thing could happen and the authorities would be equally stumped. 

 

And truthfully we do not know what if any charges the protesters may face, though often here in the US the people who do such things get a slap on the wrist which only leads to more lawlessness. 

[AmazedByCruising]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, but how do you know that the protesters were not arrested and charged for delaying the ship, just as they would be for a non-sanctioned protest in the streets.  People do illegal things all the time.  Who I find fault with are the German authorities for not responding to this sooner.

 

According to themselves, 40 were arrested and relieved. The Captain is filing a complaint, but personally I think that's the end of the story. Next time police, not used to this kind of protest, will be a bit quicker, at most. If the German public is similar to the Dutch, which I think it is, most Germans will think this method of protesting is not unreasonable, and it will certainly lead to articles about SOx compared to cars and working conditions. The latter being the second cause they claimed.

 

Anyway, I hope next time the port will be ready for such events and resolve it much faster than this time.

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

............................ Who I find fault with are the German authorities for not responding to this sooner.

 

In their defense, it would more than likely have taken a bit of time (not sure how long it actually took them to arrive on scene) to get the specialized resources (Bereitschaftspolizei) notified, gathered and responding to an event like what occurred in Kiel yesterday. The avg beat cop (Schutzpolizei) in his/her Mercedes-Benz is not equipped to get two clowns, who have attached themselves to ship mooring lines, down. The rubber boat/kayak "flotilla" would have required more than one police boat from the Wasserschutzpolizei with extra manpower onboard to remove them.

 

Not being up to speed on German criminal law, there would have more than likely been verbal warnings first and, if no compliance, followed by arrests similar to what happens to the morons who climb the Eiffel tower, N.Y. Times building, Statue of Liberty monument, Mt. Rushmore monument, St. Louis Gateway Arch, etc. to unveil their banners

 

As you are aware, in certain U.S. ports, there is a permanent law enforcement presence in boats on the water in close proximity to the berthed cruise ships, standing by for the duration of their shore-side stay. Port Everglades comes to mind with Broward County Sheriff, San Diego is another such port, as are Port Canaveral and Seattle. Foreign (to the U.S.) ports that do this are Vancouver, Huatulco, and others. Having had that presence in Kiel might have prevented the rubber boats from being able to get in close proximity to the Zuiderdam or, at a minimum, would have alerted the authorities of their presence. It is astonishing that two individuals could have just walked up to ZUDM's forward mooring lines to "do their thing" without having been challenged by shore-side security. Even in relatively open ports like Juneau and Ketchikan, AK, there is shore-side security presence on the dock for the duration of the ship's stay there

 

You would think, based on yesterday's events, that both the Kiel port authority as well as the Bundespolizei and/or Landespolizei Schleswig-Holstein (not sure which of the two forces handles this or perhaps, both) will be better prepared during future cruise ship visits, incl. Zuidy's return there next month

 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Copper10-8

[Floridiana]

It's not the end of the story. According to the Hamburg "Morning Post", the protesters face legal charges.

 

Maybe most Germans think that the accusations against cruise lines hold true, I have not seen a survey, on the other hand cruising is one of the fastest growing industries with TUI continuously building ships for the German market. I have been to the Kiel cruise port. It is busy with ferries, passengers ships and many small pleasure vessels of all kinds. It is protected from the elements at the end of a long fjord.

[Floridiana]

2 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

You would think, based on yesterday's events, that both the Kiel port authority as well as the Bundespolizie and/or Landespolizie Schleswig-Holstein (not sure which of the two forces handles this or perhaps, both)

 

According to the newspaper, police were called in from the entire area. It is a holiday weekend in Germany, Pentecost. 

[Hlitner]

WOW.  I get to disagree with ChengKP again (twice in a month) :).  A key strategy to marine safety is keeping a safety buffer between a ship and any potential threat.  In many ports the authorities will warn away any vessels that come too close to a cruise ship.  In fact, in most US Ports you will often see an armed (with at least one 50 Caliber machine gun) Coast Guard vessel or local police vessel keeping boats at some distance from cruise vessels.   The US Navy, learned the hard way, that even a small vessel can carry enough explosives to blow a large hole in the side of a vessel resulting in the loss of both life and property.  The German authorities obviously failed to maintain even the lowest degree of security at the port.  The next time that same type of protest might be a ruse to allow a terrorist bomber..access to a ship!    While it is easy enough to keep them physically off the vessel, allowing small boats to literally bump up against the ship is a huge faux pas.

 

Hank

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

WOW.  I get to disagree with ChengKP again (twice in a month) :).  A key strategy to marine safety is keeping a safety buffer between a ship and any potential threat.  In many ports the authorities will warn away any vessels that come too close to a cruise ship.  In fact, in most US Ports you will often see an armed (with at least one 50 Caliber machine gun) Coast Guard vessel or local police vessel keeping boats at some distance from cruise vessels.   The US Navy, learned the hard way, that even a small vessel can carry enough explosives to blow a large hole in the side of a vessel resulting in the loss of both life and property.  The German authorities obviously failed to maintain even the lowest degree of security at the port.  The next time that same type of protest might be a ruse to allow a terrorist bomber..access to a ship!    While it is easy enough to keep them physically off the vessel, allowing small boats to literally bump up against the ship is a huge faux pas.

 

Hank

Well, Hank, I'll disagree back.  As I said, I fault the German authorities for an apparent failure of their ISPS plan.  I say "apparent" since I have no direct knowledge (and no one outside the local, state and national agencies that have a "need to know" would) of their ISPS, since this is a classified document, and each port is allowed to construct their own ISPS code, so long as the third party auditor agrees that it meets the requirements of the ISPS convention.  What the USCG, and local port agencies in the US determine as their desired level of security under ISPS is different from what the German authorities consider to be their desired level of authority.  To my eye, this incident showed a flaw in the Kiel ISPS procedures, but not one on the part of HAL, but that is just my opinion, as we don't have the facts.

 

The boat that damaged the USS Cole in Yemen, that I believe you are referring to, carried between 400-700 lbs of explosive.  You would need a whole lot of kayaks or rubber rafts to get this much explosive, and the Cole explosive was a "shaped charge", which directs its explosive force in one direction, and which means you can't bring a bunch of small packages of explosive in a bunch of boats and hope for the same result.  If you did, the force of explosion would be directed in all directions, mostly away from the ship.  And the loss of life was due to a mess hall being directly above the explosion at mess time.

 

And, with the cameras the cruise ships have, any boat alongside the ship would be under surveillance at all times, and responses to apparently violent acts would be made.  The responsibility to maintain a safe zone around the vessel rests with the port authorities.  If the ship had used fire hoses to push the boats away, they likely would have been subject to assault charges, as the people in the boats were not doing anything that violated the ship's ISPS, but the port's ISPS.

 

[G.M.T.]

I hope the "freedom fighters" don't see the film "Cockleshell Heros".

[katrina915]

I was on zuiderdam 10 days ago. Great ship and crew. Captain was very visible. 

 

I hope the protesters walked or rode their bikes to the event. 

 

Tactics like this just usually turn people off.

[TAD2005]

It is, (or should be) very difficult for anyone to enter a major shipping port.   Many of us who have taken taxis back to a port after a tour know each passenger in the taxi must show an ID and ship key card to enter the port.   

If 50 or so protesters can enter a major commercial seaport, either by land or sea, with boats, banners and other supplies, without being stopped and ejected, means that the port authorities felt that this protest was not intended to be harmful, or cause disruptions, or they were sympathetic to their cause.   Were all of these protesters searched for any dangerous devices ?   They were able to get in direct contact with the ship's hull, which is a scary situation for people with unknown motives.   What would have happened if just one of these protesters was not happy with just blocking the departure or hanging on the mooring lines like idiots ?   What if one of them had a package of C4 explosive in their backpack ?   

OK, this ended peacefully (sort of).   But what about the more sinister groups that now see how easy it was to enter a shipping port and get right up against a cruise ship's hull ?   Will they be encouraged next time by the ease of access to a supposedly secure area, and make more dangerous plans, posing as just simple ecological protesters ?

Quote

 

 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

45 minutes ago, TAD2005 said:

It is, (or should be) very difficult for anyone to enter a major shipping port.   Many of us who have taken taxis back to a port after a tour know each passenger in the taxi must show an ID and ship key card to enter the port.   

If 50 or so protesters can enter a major commercial seaport, either by land or sea, with boats, banners and other supplies, without being stopped and ejected, means that the port authorities felt that this protest was not intended to be harmful, or cause disruptions, or they were sympathetic to their cause.   Were all of these protesters searched for any dangerous devices ?   They were able to get in direct contact with the ship's hull, which is a scary situation for people with unknown motives.   What would have happened if just one of these protesters was not happy with just blocking the departure or hanging on the mooring lines like idiots ?   What if one of them had a package of C4 explosive in their backpack ?   

OK, this ended peacefully (sort of).   But what about the more sinister groups that now see how easy it was to enter a shipping port and get right up against a cruise ship's hull ?   Will they be encouraged next time by the ease of access to a supposedly secure area, and make more dangerous plans, posing as just simple ecological protesters ?

 

 

I don't think one should get unduly paranoid about this.

 

I see small pleasure craft continually sailing through Port Everglades from 17th street bridge to the inlet/outlet. (Some have gotten in the way of cruise ships on their way out, in recent past...)

 

And I can't help thinking of the entrance into Venice down Giudecca canal, where all sorts of boats are going alongside and past and across the bow -- vaporetti, private transports, police boats, you name it.  And past the dock at San Basilio all day and night.

 

I'm sure there are many other examples as well....

 

If one is going to constantly worry about such things, perhaps cruising isn't the best choice of vacation.

[AmazedByCruising]

55 minutes ago, TAD2005 said:

 But what about the more sinister groups that now see how easy it was to enter a shipping port and get right up against a cruise ship's hull

 

In Amsterdam you can just walk to the ship to wave goodbye. But why would "the more sinister groups" try to attack a hard to enter huge building, that even has its own security, when they can just walk into any restaurant? 

Edited June 11, 2019 by AmazedByCruising

[Ulsteinvik]

In Stavanger for example you can touch the hull of the ship with your hands. All ports have other rules I think there is no need to be worried.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Ulsteinvik

[Germancruiser]

I can´t wait to read what the morning papers will print- as this was the main reason - get attention! I am quite sure this incident makes all our papers here!

It even may spread into other ports - motivated by the happenings two days ago!

Found this picture:

Edited June 11, 2019 by Germancruiser

[AmazedByCruising]

6 hours ago, Floridiana said:

It's not the end of the story. According to the Hamburg "Morning Post", the protesters face legal charges.

 

True. For trespassing, resisting arrest and an accusation of "coercion" that I don't understand. Which shows that IANAL, but I still think the protesters have nothing to worry about.

 

6 hours ago, Floridiana said:

Maybe most Germans think that the accusations against cruise lines hold true, I have not seen a survey, on the other hand cruising is one of the fastest growing industries with TUI continuously building ships for the German market.

 

Likewise, almost everyone is flying for their vacation and still a majority thinks it's unjust that kerosine is tax-free.