HAL's Poor Response to Corona Virus

[sail7seas]

16 hours ago, ted144 said:

I guess Singapore would work location-wise.  It none of the possibilities now is particularly close. Maybe 4 days to reach Singapore from where they are now, 8 am Wednesday local time. Given the downside of letting 2000 people loose in any city, with a very unlikely yet still possible threat that someone had been exposed, it’s become difficult for any country to readily agree as we’ve seen. 

 

One has  to be sure where they 'can'  go after fueling up and re-provisioning.   NO  (obvious  point - to the uninformed or   not  knowledgeble about the circumstance but, why leave  Japan if they  know in advance Alaska/Seattle will not let them in  Unless one or the other says yes, here would be no reason to sail east. without a settled port they can  go to,   IF they in tend to sail east as soo n as refueled and stocked why would any persons be let off the ship until they reach final destination?     Sorry if    I make no sense, due to having no idea  how to handle this situation but that never stopped many of us from 'babbling'  here   in the past.  😉

 

  I'd hate to break a perfect stream of ( sometimes ?)     posting about what we really have no practical knowledge. 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by sail7seas

[kazu]

10 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

why leave  Japan

 

Westerdam is not in Japan.  They are disembarking over a few days in Cambodia on the 13th.

[Hlitner]

13 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

Westerdam is not in Japan.  They are disembarking over a few days in Cambodia on the 13th.

Just to further clarify they should be docking in Sihanoukville is just about 6 hours from now.

 

Hank

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

What they lack in ports they can make up for with production shows, library and dedicated cruise director to plan fun onboard activities.

 

 

If only...

 

I wonder if they're dawdling on the decision to see how many people decide to cancel and how many are willing to "go with the flow" and take whatever ports can be arranged.

[AncientWanderer]

12 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

If only...

 

I wonder if they're dawdling on the decision to see how many people decide to cancel and how many are willing to "go with the flow" and take whatever ports can be arranged.

 

Oh, probably.  And waiting for various cancellation thresholds to pass -- 50% to 75%, etc.   There are still important cancellation deadlines in play with these Japan cruises.

I'm sure they are working hard crunching numbers to see how best to minimize loss.  

 

[sail7seas]

From  all of us here  (who care to join in..)  A huge thank you from those of us who  appreciate and are grateful to the kindness, extended  to Carnival corp,   Holland America line and  surely to those travelers, who chose to visit that  part of the world for their vacation  and in their innocence got caught up in this terrible circumstance.   Thank you Cambodia,  May all in  Cambodia remain  virus free and  enjoy the  best of good health.  THank You for being a 'friend' to   very fine cruise line and corporate owner.   Lots of very relieved  and eager  (to get home to their jobs and families) vacationing cruisers on that very beautiful ship.

 

I f    there is a financial  thank you, then fine!   WHo cares Cambodia's incentive for their willingness to aid innocents when no one else in the region is agreeable  to help a ship full of crew, officers, staff and guests.

 

 

Bless them  all and best wishes  for 'safe home' to everyone.

 

Why is  this new development not all over the  news  stations?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

well earned

good name   and trust to do all reasonable/ possible  to keep everyone and  that multi million dollar ship safe, well and get them delivered back to solid land in order for them to make their way home  I am grateful HA L and  Carnival corp  has managed what  I hope we will soon learn was the best solution  any could sensibly hope  for. Huge thanks to all involved in handling the dilema of  finding a 'safe port' that would permit Westerdam to dock.   To  question  if there is  quid pro quo leaves me shaking my head.  NOT  any of our business and frankly why would anyone care enough  to ask, here on an open internet forum.  If one of you loved is on that ship, what would it matter if that got themhome  safely and in good health?

no one actually could expect an answer to such question/comment

 

IMO

 

 

 

sail.noordam@gmail.com

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

On 2/10/2020 at 9:49 PM, arabrab said:

Isn't her home the Netherlands? 

Flagged  ? yes

  Seattle is     the location of HAL's home office now  and has been , for many years since  leaving Amsterdam,

that makes Seattle he home of HAL  not where the company was 'born'.

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 1/30/2020 at 6:48 PM, npcl said:

For that matter just think back to the Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 when a number of Mexican Riviera cruises turns in to California Coastal cruises. That is probably the closest example of cruise routes changed due to an outbreak.

    Having heard today  from several news sources, a bout a large number ( thousands) of newly confirmed cases of corona   virus and some speculation ,from  'experts' there will be many more.   That seems to make one think, the cruise and travel industry  in  general is going to suffer a rough   stretch going forward and it is highly likely(?)no cruise ships and few, if any commercial flights will  e going to

China or nearb y in   the immedite future.

 

If I had a  trip, planned to that area,   I would not start packing.

[Vict0riann]

I had an email from our PCC in Seattle this morning, she mentioned how busy they have been there "with that China virus".  So I imagine they are all hustling - and there will be more changes in store, probably.

[Viv0828]

Passengers on board the Westerdam

 

A US cruise ship blocked from several Asian ports over concerns that a passenger could have been infected with the new coronavirus has docked in Cambodia, as frustrated holidaymakers expressed hope their ordeal may soon be over.

The Westerdam was supposed to be taking its 1,455 passengers on a 14-day cruise around east Asia, beginning in Hong Kong on 1 February and disembarking on Saturday in Yokohama, Japan.

But the ship was turned away from Japan, Guam, the Philippines, Taiwan and Thailand over fears of the novel coronavirus epidemic that has killed more than 1,300 people in China.

Cruise operator Holland America has insisted there are no cases of the SARS-like virus on board and Cambodia announced yesterday that the boat would be able to dock in Sihanoukville, on its southern coast.

By evening, the ship moved into the beach town's port, moving past the small fishing vessels that usually ply the waters.

As it slowly approached the pier, people onshore snapped selfies of themselves with the massive vessel.

The mood was equally buoyant on the boat.

"Thank you Cambodia! You believed in us when no one would!" tweeted passenger Lydia Miller.

But all passengers would have to remain onboard until flights have been arranged, said provincial governor Kuoch Chamroeun.

"The arrangement of the planes to take them from (Sihanoukville) airport to Phnom Penh airport is under way," he said, explaining that three flights were scheduled for tomorrow.

Buses were lined up by the pier ready to transfer passengers to Sihanoukville's airport. Holland America has said they would foot the bill to return all guests.

Before the ship docked, doctors conducted health checks for the passengers.

The samples of 20 on board who were sick were sent to the Pasteur Institute in Phnom Penh to test for the virus, said transport minister Sun Chanthol.

Dr Michael Ryan of the World Health Organization today gave an update on the cruise ship quarantined in Japan, and the one docked in Cambodia.

He told the briefing: "Regarding the Diamond Princess cruise ship which is currently quarantined in Yokahoma, 218 passengers have tested positive for the virus, which does represent the largest cluster of Covid-19 cases outside of China.

"There are also negotiations under way to allow elderly patients to leave the ship, and that's currently being negotiated and discussed."

Referring to the Westerdam cruise ship docked in Cambodia, Dr Ryan said all people remain onboard as a "precautionary measure".

He said: "Cruise doctors and others on the ship have seen some people with very mild upper respiratory symptoms.

"While those tests are being completed, all of the people remain onboard, but that's been a purely precautionary measure at the moment."

Cambodian premier Hun Sen is a staunch Chinese ally and has been vocal in his support of Beijing's handling of the epidemic, even going so far as to visit China last week in a show of solidarity.

"The permission to dock is to stop the disease of fear that is happening around the world," he told state-affiliated media website Fresh News.

"We must help them when they asked us for help," he added.

Neighbouring Thailand, which blocked the Westerdam from docking in its eastern seaboard port, received two cruise liners in holiday resort town Phuket.

Both Seabourne Ovation and Quantum of the Seas were allowed to dock, and passengers to alight for roughly ten hours as part of the scheduled stop.

"They were all checked by their doctors on the ship, and we also examined them when they disembarked," Phuket governor Pakapong Tawipat told AFP.

He added that the passengers and the crew members "were not Chinese", and that Phuket was part of their regular routes, unlike the Westerdam.

Japan's premier Shinzo Abe expressed worries last week over a possible infection on the Westerdam, and said measures will be taken to "reject entries" for foreigners into the country.

Cambodia has one confirmed case of the virus.

[sail7seas]

6 hours ago, Vict0riann said:

I had an email from our PCC in Seattle this morning, she mentioned how busy they have been there "with that China virus".  So I imagine they are all hustling - and there will be more changes in store, probably

I  spoke with my PCC yesterday.  W hile nether of us wanted to dig down into details  I doubt PCC's would call this their best week ever ;😯

[sail7seas]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:47 PM, kazu said:

 

Westerdam is not in Japan.  They are disembarking over a few days in Cambodia on the 13th.

Yes, Kazi

 

We all came  to learn that.  🙂

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:42 PM, Mary229 said:

The air system, like on flights, is interconnected. 

Has it been verified, the virus ca n be passed along by the air system?  I hope not but .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

sail.noordam@gmail.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vict0riann]

On our news this evening they said not likely to have been passed through the air conditioning system, as it is spread by droplets and not aerosolized.  You need to be fairly close to the person who might spread it to you.

 

at least that is what they said.

[Mary229]

9 hours ago, sail7seas said:

Has it been verified, the virus ca n be passed along by the air system?  I hope not but .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

sail.noordam@gmail.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are asking two questions.  1. the air system is interconnected as on a flight.  2. is the coronavirus-2019 communicable by air.  So far every single case documented is by "contact" according to WHO  and they recommend a 3 foot personal space to prevent contagion.  They are drawing their conclusions from prior coronavirus outbreaks.  Here is the WHO public information page regarding the 2019 virus

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

You are asking two questions.  1. the air system is interconnected as on a flight.  

 

This is not true as has been posted numerous times by chengkp75, who is in a position to know. Here's one post from him to that effect (below).

 

I can't find the longer explanation but it is to the effect that individual cabins are not interconnected via recirculated air.  Public rooms, yes.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by cruisemom42

[gphb]

19 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

This is not true as has been posted numerous times by chengkp75, who is in a position to know. 

 

I can't find the longer explanation but it is to the effect that individual cabins are not interconnected via recirculated air.  Public rooms, yes.

 

Actually, the official statement on recirculating air by the Holland America Group subsidiary of CCL is that the cabin air does recirculate on their ships but that in special situations such as on quarantined ships like Diamond Princess the captain can increase the relative proportion of fresh air relative to the recirculating air, but they cannot eliminate it, in cabins, crew cabins and public spaces alike.

"The ship is equipped with air filtration systems found in land-based hotels and casinos ... our ships have a mix of fresh and recirculated air that goes through a filter. However, in an abundance of caution we are maximizing the percentage of fresh air in guest cabins, crew cabins and public spaces."

Source:  Ray Caluori, EVP Princess Cruises, Holland America Group, February 11, 2020
Link:  https://www.facebook.com/PrincessCruises/videos/783739805479528/
 

The industry stated reason for using both recirculated air and fresh air is to maximize the return on investment to shareholders, without too much impact on passenger discomfort.     Hence why they only adjust the percentage back in favor of the passengers in exceptional circumstances like a quarantined ship with known infection (currently 1 in 8 passengers infected which would seem to be hard to be demonstrated to be linked to direct contact or droplet only, despite prior statements by the US CDC to the contrary based on the best information they had at the time).

“More energy is more fuel, and more fuel is a higher cost for the company.  The investors want their return on investment. So we’re trying to minimize energy cost in any way we can without jeopardizing the comfort of our passengers.  One way is recirculating the air inside the ship instead of venting it outside, as had been the practice ... by doing so we’ve reduced our cooling [costs] by a quarter.”  -- Eddie Wehus, HVAC and refrigeration manager, competitor cruise company (RCL), company environmental blog, October 27, 2016

 

 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, gphb said:

 

Actually, the official statement on recirculating air by the Holland America Group subsidiary of CCL is that the cabin air does recirculate on their ships but that in special situations such as on quarantined ships like Diamond Princess the captain can increase the relative proportion of fresh air relative to the recirculating air, but they cannot eliminate it, in cabins, crew cabins and public spaces alike.

"The ship is equipped with air filtration systems found in land-based hotels and casinos ... our ships have a mix of fresh and recirculated air that goes through a filter. However, in an abundance of caution we are maximizing the percentage of fresh air in guest cabins, crew cabins and public spaces."

Source:  Ray Caluori, EVP Princess Cruises, Holland America Group, February 11, 2020
Link:  https://www.facebook.com/PrincessCruises/videos/783739805479528/
 

The industry stated reason for using both recirculated air and fresh air is to maximize the return on investment to shareholders, without too much impact on passenger discomfort.     Hence why they only adjust the percentage back in favor of the passengers in exceptional circumstances like a quarantined ship with known infection (currently 1 in 8 passengers infected which would seem to be hard to be demonstrated to be linked to direct contact or droplet only, despite prior statements by the US CDC to the contrary based on the best information they had at the time).

“More energy is more fuel, and more fuel is a higher cost for the company.  The investors want their return on investment. So we’re trying to minimize energy cost in any way we can without jeopardizing the comfort of our passengers.  One way is recirculating the air inside the ship instead of venting it outside, as had been the practice ... by doing so we’ve reduced our cooling [costs] by a quarter.”  -- Eddie Wehus, HVAC and refrigeration manager, competitor cruise company (RCL), company environmental blog, October 27, 2016

 

 

 

This is all outside my own area of expertise, so I will let folks far more expert than I provide the intel. I'm sure chengp75 was somewhat simplifying the process in his explanation -- perhaps he will chime in and clarify further.

[cruiserchuck]

18 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is all outside my own area of expertise, so I will let folks far more expert than I provide the intel. I'm sure chengp75 was somewhat simplifying the process in his explanation -- perhaps he will chime in and clarify further.

 

chengp75 was simply wrong.  As mentioned above, Princess has confirmed that the air is recirculated, even in cabins.  

Edited February 17, 2020 by cruiserchuck

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is not true as has been posted numerous times by chengkp75, who is in a position to know. Here's one post from him to that effect (below).

 

I can't find the longer explanation but it is to the effect that individual cabins are not interconnected via recirculated air.  Public rooms, yes.

 

 

Check your sources.   I read the same statement as @gphb

[slidergirl]

On 2/13/2020 at 12:33 PM, Viv0828 said:

Passengers on board the Westerdam

 

 

 

First, I want to inject a little humor into what is a horrible international situation:   What is with the people on the top deck wearing robes out in public????  Don't they know robes are for the cabin???   (just remembering old threads on people being offended by robes out in public)...  

 

The cat is out of the bag, so to speak.  We shouldn't do any "Monday morning quarterbacking" on what could/should have been done.   This virus came on so fast and furious that everyone, from the medical side to the business side, was caught flatfooted and can only try to catch up.  Just speaking of the Westerdam:  I don't know what anticipatory actions could have been taken.  

 

I do feel for all of those affected.  Quarantine on the ship, quarantine in hotels, flown home in cargo planes (I'm very familiar with those Kalita 747s - saw them all the time for decades at PHX and LAX), the US passengers quarantined again at military bases, Canadian passengers asked to self-quarantine at home.   I don't think I'd wish this on most people.   I can only remember for myself, things like this are a part of travel that I have to accept.   I roll the dice every time I travel, I can only hope that all always goes well for me.  

[sail7seas]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:10 AM, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

(bold is mine) I agree. I understand the disappointment--people wanted to go to China and now they won't. But HAL didn't cause the disease outbreak. They're trying to deal with it in a way that keeps the passengers away from risky ports. If HAL kept the calls at Chinese ports, more people would be complaining about that than about the changed itinerary.

 

I think the issue more complex than HAL cancelled ports.  china has barred the cruise ships from entering/ dock

ing.   HAL  did not  willingly change itineraries   China did.

Those who think  they should get a  refund  might' chase after China  to attempt getting a refund  from  them  (rolleyes")

 

 

[ted144]

Does anyone think that the March 14 Tokyo round trip cruise will not ultimately be cancelled?  The fact that there was a case of Coronavirus discovered in a recent former passenger adds another potential roadblock to an immediate return to “business as usual”. If they do run a trip on March 13, my guess is that occupancy will be below 50%. 

[jaxon41]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/cambodias-coronavirus-complacency-may-exact-a-global-toll/ar-BB106rXO?ocid=spartandhp

 

so sorry for everyone caught up in this