Carnival Corporation Arrogance

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, PhoenixCruiser said:

Your numbers are way off

 

 

Table with number of infected  "New Confirmed Cases of Coronavirus outside Mainland China by Country and Territory" here....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019–20_Wuhan_coronavirus_outbreak_in_December_2019_–_January_2020

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by HappyInVan

[tcc8v]

My post said 318 cases outside of China.  Your reference is primarily about cases inside China.  Unfortunately the latter greatly swamp the former.

[jb008]

7 hours ago, tcc8v said:

The following is from a Cruise Critic news item (Feb. 7):

 

"The bigger issue for cruisers on the current sailing is where Westerdam goes from here. With Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, The Philippines and other countries denying entry to cruise ships -- even ones with no suspected cases of the disease onboard -- Westerdam's potential ports to disembark guests at in Asia are now severely restricted."

 

So apparently national authorities think that, in Asia at least, international cruising presents an unacceptable risk of disease transmission in the current epidemic.  How can a customer be faulted for thinking the same?
 

 

They think the current ship of people represents a risk, that's like saying I'm worried the milk in a carton dated sell by 1/31 might be bad so I should avoid all milk until spring?

 

I don't know Westerdam's itinerary, worst case is that they require her to stay at sea until the latency period for the last known exposure has passed. Basically a quarantine of the ship - if there's no one aboard with nCoV you don't need the room specific isolation like Diamond had to do. 

 

I agree refunds on canceled sailings is only fair. I don't think a pax unilaterally choosing to not sail though warrant a refund from the line, I think a credit is reasonable. There's insurance for wanting to cancel for any reason; I used that recently because I wanted to switch my flight and flight prices had dropped so I ate my insurance policy cost and cancelled and rebooked my trip. 

It's analogous to airlines offering a change fee waiver for inclement weather but resisting refunding unless the flight actually cancels. 

 

This all my be moot soon, the evolving situation may force the cancellation of this person's cruise and in that case they may get double; refund plus credit on future trip.

 

I recently bailed on my CCL stock... but what I'd love to know is what's the approximate cost per ship to refund plus credit for future travel equal to cost of the affected/canceled trip. 

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, tcc8v said:

My post said 318 cases outside of China.  Your reference is primarily about cases inside China.  Unfortunately the latter greatly swamp the former.

 

The table is in a sub-section that you have to click. Here's a screen capture...

 

 

[IRL_Joanie]

15 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Joanie, I don't know if anyone has told you this, but your font is almost totally unreadable on mobile devices.  There's a problem with this site pertaining to that particular font (comic sans).  I highly suggest changing it so your posts can be read.

 

Hmmmm...... Can you take a screen shot of one of my posts, such as this one? I cannot see any problems with the preview of all devices it shows (The final button up top right)

 

I've tried a modified color of the one I've been using, so if it id the color then I fixed it. If not......

 

Joanie

[fatcat04]

Joanie... here is what it looks like on my desktop. (I'll post my mobile device screen shot next)

 

[kazu]

6 minutes ago, IRL_Joanie said:

 

Hmmmm...... Can you take a screen shot of one of my posts, such as this one? I cannot see any problems with the preview of all devices it shows (The final button up top right)

 

I've tried a modified color of the one I've been using, so if it id the color then I fixed it. If not......

 

Joanie

 

 

Joanie - I had to expand to even read it.  Just stop using San Serif.

here’s a screenshot:

[fatcat04]

Here is what it looks like on my mobile device. The script is super hard to read.

 

[IRL_Joanie]

13 hours ago, DivotMaker said:

 

Thanks for posting this...Indeed very hard to read (see below)

 

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OK, I've changed the color, and noted someone above posted my favorite font causes problems, and now that I can actually see what the problems are, let's see if this post is better.

 

Edited: Thanks to all for their Screen Shots. What gets me on seeing them is the Font is NOT Comic Sans Serif, which is the font I have always used. I've chosen Tahoma for this post.

 

Joanie

Edited February 8, 2020 by IRL_Joanie

[fatcat04]

1 minute ago, IRL_Joanie said:

 

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OK, I've changed the color, and noted someone above posted my favorite font causes problems, and now that I can actually see what the problems are, let's see if this post is better.

 

Joanie

Perfect. 😀

[IRL_Joanie]

4 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Perfect. 😀

 

Thank you!!

 

Joanie

[Aquahound]

51 minutes ago, IRL_Joanie said:

 

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OK, I've changed the color, and noted someone above posted my favorite font causes problems, and now that I can actually see what the problems are, let's see if this post is better.

 

Edited: Thanks to all for their Screen Shots. What gets me on seeing them is the Font is NOT Comic Sans Serif, which is the font I have always used. I've chosen Tahoma for this post.

 

Joanie

 

 

Thanks Joanie.  The problem with Comic Sans was reported to the admins on the "Need Help Using the Forums" page a while ago but they still haven't found a fix for it.  Too bad, because I actually like that font.  It's a mystery why it changes to that odd script on mobile devices.  

[jb008]

40 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

 

Thanks Joanie.  The problem with Comic Sans was reported to the admins on the "Need Help Using the Forums" page a while ago but they still haven't found a fix for it.  Too bad, because I actually like that font.  It's a mystery why it changes to that odd script on mobile devices.  

 

Probably a quirk with what's loaded on the mobile OS or browser as to what the font is and how rendered.  Lots of fonts are proprietary and have a licensing fee for use, possible what's loaded to display may be a free alternative or what's loaded for the font is the wrong set of characters (analogy is the wrong DVD gets put into a movie case, you pull a specific movie title but get shown the wrong picture on the screen). 

[tcc8v]

5 hours ago, jb008 said:

 

They think the current ship of people represents a risk, that's like saying I'm worried the milk in a carton dated sell by 1/31 might be bad so I should avoid all milk until spring?

 

I don't know Westerdam's itinerary, worst case is that they require her to stay at sea until the latency period for the last known exposure has passed. Basically a quarantine of the ship - if there's no one aboard with nCoV you don't need the room specific isolation like Diamond had to do. 

 

I agree refunds on canceled sailings is only fair. I don't think a pax unilaterally choosing to not sail though warrant a refund from the line, I think a credit is reasonable. There's insurance for wanting to cancel for any reason; I used that recently because I wanted to switch my flight and flight prices had dropped so I ate my insurance policy cost and cancelled and rebooked my trip. 

It's analogous to airlines offering a change fee waiver for inclement weather but resisting refunding unless the flight actually cancels. 

 

This all my be moot soon, the evolving situation may force the cancellation of this person's cruise and in that case they may get double; refund plus credit on future trip.

 

I recently bailed on my CCL stock... but what I'd love to know is what's the approximate cost per ship to refund plus credit for future travel equal to cost of the affected/canceled trip. 

I have just received a message from HAL that I can cancel in exchange for a future credit that can be used for a sailing within 12 months.  The mysterious ‘terms and conditions’ were not attached, but I intend to accept this offer unless they are too onerous.  For example if the replacement cruise must be booked immediately (as in an earlier buyout offer), this would be a no go.

 

I am still mystified about travel insurance.  The HAL premium policy includes 90% cancel for any reason coverage, but only 10K of medical coverage.  The standard cruise coverage that I have has more generous medical coverage, but would not have covered me if I had cancelled due to epidemic.  Would anyone seriously consider buying multiple policies?

 

Unlike jb008, I still own CCL stock and love cruising.  I just think that CCL’s handling of the current situation left much to be desired.  After all, the closing of Japanese ports within hours of the infecteds on Diamond Princess increasing from 20 to 61 (the count is now 64) indicates some irritation by the Japanese government.  Apparently the president of Princess is now in Japan and I assume the needed humble pie was eaten.

 

My friend in Taiwan told me about efforts by the Taiwan government to locate people who may have been infected by DP passengers during their shore stop.  His quote ‘Holy Cow, this is war!’  Hopefully there is some exaggeration here.

[jb008]

52 minutes ago, tcc8v said:

I am still mystified about travel insurance.  The HAL premium policy includes 90% cancel for any reason coverage, but only 10K of medical coverage.  The standard cruise coverage that I have has more generous medical coverage, but would not have covered me if I had cancelled due to epidemic.  Would anyone seriously consider buying multiple policies?

 

Unlike jb008, I still own CCL stock and love cruising.  I just think that CCL’s handling of the current situation left much to be desired.  After all, the closing of Japanese ports within hours of the infecteds on Diamond Princess increasing from 20 to 61 (the count is now 64) indicates some irritation by the Japanese government.  Apparently the president of Princess is now in Japan and I assume the needed humble pie was eaten.

 

My friend in Taiwan told me about efforts by the Taiwan government to locate people who may have been infected by DP passengers during their shore stop.  His quote ‘Holy Cow, this is war!’  Hopefully there is some exaggeration here.

 

The cruise line policies are generally not quite the same animal as 3rd party travel insurance, cruise line CFAR is often done as credit and not cash back.  Depending on how they structure their plans sometimes they're not insurance but instead "protection" plans.  One way they limit their liability is to issue the lower medical coverage amounts, they also are generally cheaper for CFAR coverage because it's not issued as cash back to the customer if they cancel.  Travel protection costs through the cruise line can be much cheaper than coverage through a third-party insurer (e.g., insuring someone >60 yo ain't cheap) because they have different liability than a standard travel insurer. 

 

When you say "would not have covered me if I had cancelled due to epidemic" are you referring to the CFAR or the medical expenses coverage?  I would be surprised anyone would cover cancellation due to epidemic as a medical expenses coverage if you're not an actual patient.  Medical expenses coverage is supposed to cover costs for a treating you during travel (i.e., you have an emergency arise like falling on ice and breaking a hip).  Whereas, it sounds like you're talking about trip cancelation coverage, where you want covered reason = epidemic in a port of call (best analogy is probably terrorism coverage).  That's different than medical expense coverage or trip cancelation for covered reason = medical (e.g., under treatment and deemed you not fit for travel).  Hypothetically, what's the new standard being used to screen and prohibit someone from traveling though... sore throat, cough, headache, chills, and maybe fever a few days prior to travel where a supervising physician recommends staying home and minimizing your exposure to others?

 

Your question raises an interesting point though, my current policy would cover if I cancel because I was under quarantine; what's less clear is how "denied boarding" would be treated if carrier refuses passage due to a passenger's recent travel history (like what X is doing where anyone passaging through China/HK/Macau less than 15 days before boarding will be refused passage).  I haven't looked at updated policies being sold since nCoV became a major issue, so maybe this is more clearly addressed in the benefits information now.

 

I sold my CCL stock at somewhere around 47.65 (and for decent return) and will buy back in at some point.  I like the investment thesis as a whole, but don't see a need to go long at the present time.  I also leave later this month on my next cruise fwiw. 

 

I'm glad they're not just letting people cancel for refunds unless the trip gets cancelled.  Credit for future travel is a good compromise; CCL can book the revenue and gives the pax the ability to still change their travel plans and keeps them likely to sail again soon.  I get why they're trying to contain the virus, but with an infectivity rate that currently looks to be higher than influenza I'm personally skeptical containment will be effective.  I hope I'm wrong!

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by jb008

[CJcruzer]

2 hours ago, tcc8v said:

have just received a message from HAL that I can cancel in exchange for a future credit that can be used for a sailing within 12 months.  The mysterious ‘terms and conditions’ were not attached, but I intend to accept this offer unless they are too onerous.  For example if the replacement cruise must be booke

 

for which sailing date is this cancel in exchange for future credit ?

 

I am booked on April 11 sailing.

 

Carol

[CJcruzer]

4 minutes ago, CJcruzer said:

 

for which sailing date is this cancel in exchange for future credit ?

 

I am booked on April 11 sailing.

 

Carol

 

sorry, I just looked back at first page, I see this offer applies to the Feb 29 sailing.

 

Carol

[Boatdrill]

On 2/7/2020 at 1:29 PM, tcc8v said:

We have considerable power to influence corporate behavior.  

 

Not as much as Carnival Corp has. Sorry. 

[kazu]

3 hours ago, tcc8v said:

I have just received a message from HAL that I can cancel in exchange for a future credit that can be used for a sailing within 12 months.  The mysterious ‘terms and conditions’ were not attached, but I intend to accept this offer unless they are too onerous.

 

That’s excellent news.  I’m glad the Feb. 29th cruise has been resolved and you are being offered an “out”.

[1ANGELCAT]

4 hours ago, jb008 said:

 

The cruise line policies are generally not quite the same animal as 3rd party travel insurance, cruise line CFAR is often done as credit and not cash back.  Depending on how they structure their plans sometimes they're not insurance but instead "protection" plans.  One way they limit their liability is to issue the lower medical coverage amounts, they also are generally cheaper for CFAR coverage because it's not issued as cash back to the customer if they cancel.  Travel protection costs through the cruise line can be much cheaper than coverage through a third-party insurer (e.g., insuring someone >60 yo ain't cheap) because they have different liability than a standard travel insurer. 

 

When you say "would not have covered me if I had cancelled due to epidemic" are you referring to the CFAR or the medical expenses coverage?  I would be surprised anyone would cover cancellation due to epidemic as a medical expenses coverage if you're not an actual patient.  Medical expenses coverage is supposed to cover costs for a treating you during travel (i.e., you have an emergency arise like falling on ice and breaking a hip).  Whereas, it sounds like you're talking about trip cancelation coverage, where you want covered reason = epidemic in a port of call (best analogy is probably terrorism coverage).  That's different than medical expense coverage or trip cancelation for covered reason = medical (e.g., under treatment and deemed you not fit for travel).  Hypothetically, what's the new standard being used to screen and prohibit someone from traveling though... sore throat, cough, headache, chills, and maybe fever a few days prior to travel where a supervising physician recommends staying home and minimizing your exposure to others?

 

Your question raises an interesting point though, my current policy would cover if I cancel because I was under quarantine; what's less clear is how "denied boarding" would be treated if carrier refuses passage due to a passenger's recent travel history (like what X is doing where anyone passaging through China/HK/Macau less than 15 days before boarding will be refused passage).  I haven't looked at updated policies being sold since nCoV became a major issue, so maybe this is more clearly addressed in the benefits information now.

 

I sold my CCL stock at somewhere around 47.65 (and for decent return) and will buy back in at some point.  I like the investment thesis as a whole, but don't see a need to go long at the present time.  I also leave later this month on my next cruise fwiw. 

 

I'm glad they're not just letting people cancel for refunds unless the trip gets cancelled.  Credit for future travel is a good compromise; CCL can book the revenue and gives the pax the ability to still change their travel plans and keeps them likely to sail again soon.  I get why they're trying to contain the virus, but with an infectivity rate that currently looks to be higher than influenza I'm personally skeptical containment will be effective.  I hope I'm wrong!

 

 

HAL ‘s CFAR is most definitely CASH back. I’ve used it more than once. As long as the terms are met regarding the time frame prior to departure., it will pay. My credit was processed while I sat in my TA’s office. 

[jb008]

1 hour ago, 1ANGELCAT said:

HAL ‘s CFAR is most definitely CASH back. I’ve used it more than once. As long as the terms are met regarding the time frame prior to departure., it will pay. My credit was processed while I sat in my TA’s office. 

Thanks! Good to know. Princess vacation protection isn't cash unless it's for a covered reason, otherwise it's credit. 

 

Both HAL and Princess use Nationwide for the insurance portion. I'll have to take a look in particular at HAL's policy next time.  Now that my insurance agent retired I'm not feeling tied to the same insurer. 

[1ANGELCAT]

HAL CFAR was AON Affiinity.

[crystalspin]

7 hours ago, tcc8v said:

I am still mystified about travel insurance.  The HAL premium policy includes 90% cancel for any reason coverage, but only 10K of medical coverage.  The standard cruise coverage that I have has more generous medical coverage, but would not have covered me if I had cancelled due to epidemic.  Would anyone seriously consider buying multiple policies?

Yes, surely. We have an annual GeoBlue MEDICAL policy and a (paid subscription) credit card that will cover any reason for which we would cancel a trip.

 

ETA: Not "disinclination to travel".

 

ETAA: It's important to differentiate between Medical Insurance for Travellers VS Cancellation Protection.

Edited February 9, 2020 by crystalspin

[sail7seas]

Many people here on CC did buy insurance and yet they have posted  their insurers are refusing to pay claims !!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[kazu]

Trip insurers have announced that they are adjusting policies for the coronavirus.

 

So, some people may be covered.  You need to touch base with your companies as it varies (typical line).  But it was on the news today in case it helps anyone.