Florida Senators Introduce Legislation To Restart Cruising

[macandlucy]

There are medical professionals who advocate for things like vitamin d (sunshine!) as a covid effects minimizer. And off the top of my head, I can think of Joseph Mercola who supports this position. And I’m confident there are plenty more, after all, that is science... lots of debate and dissent until a consensus is reached. 
 

Personally, I’m pro effective masks, and all in on hygiene and distancing, so I agree with a lot of the mainstream advice. But I do find the dogmatism very unusual  and very “unscientific”. That’s weirding me out a little. 
 

I prefer to have as much info as I can before deciding and I do value debate and open discussion. Nothing is really decided yet, won’t be for years, so it strikes me as odd that so many are acting as though it is. Jmo. 
 

Having said that...get yourself a good mask and wear it, wash your hands before you touch your food or your face, and distance from strangers. 😊

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

I feel sad for you.  Senators Scott and Rubio are popular and accomplished here in Florida and they recognize the CDC pointless and counter productive meddling in Florida affairs.  We've been ready for cruising since June 5.

Yeah, June 5 was approximately when COVID cases started spiking Florida, so the state was ready to kill a few thousand more people if cruising restarted then.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by njhorseman

[njhorseman]

47 minutes ago, boatseller said:

The CDC is using the only cards they have to scare people into wanting a vaccine.  And cruising is the biggest card they have.

The bureaucracies in the CDC and FDA are just as corrupt and incompetent as the FAA (737MAX).  Gilead & Boeing learned how to play the game best.

The lesson here is the CDC's authority over cruising has to be stripped completely.  The States are perfectly capably of handling onboard health and safety issues.  Well, Florida is, and probably Texas.  California can't even figure out how to steal our theme park guidelines.

There are 330 million residents of the US. Only a relatively small minority of them cruise...so...no scaring the minority who are cruisers doesn't work to convince the public as a whole.

 

Your attempt to compare what happened with the FAA , Boeing and the 737 Max with the CDC and FDA works to disprove the point you're trying to make , not support it. Rather than protecting the interests of 330 million Americans the FAA, whether due to corruption or incompetence, ending up failing the American public and instead protected the interests of a single company in one industry by approving an aircraft that never should have been allowed to fly. In contrast the CDC and FDA have worked to protect the health of our citizens rather than bow to the cruise industry.

 

[winterbliss]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 

Exercising, eating properly and getting sufficient sleep are all  part of a healthy lifestyle that should be followed at all times . Since when did the experts say otherwise?  The other advice...staying home, wearing a mask when in public and using hand sanitizer are specific steps to lessen the spread of COVID-19. They don't replace the healthy lifestyle advice, they supplement it. It's one plus the other not one or the other.

 

Can you provide references to statements made by qualified professionals...the ones you describe as courageous, that are backed by scientific evidence ? If they've spoken out they must be published somewhere.

Dr. Joel Kettner, Dr. David Katz. There are many different sources that offer information to ponder without the fear and doomdom driven narrative. Just yesterday I listened to a video by a young doctor, Leland Stillman, regarding whether we should trust medical literature... I believe it is wise to possess a healthy dose of skepticism in general. To trust those in authority and accept what is being told to us is all truth and for the good of all....seems terribly unwise. Has history not yet taught us that? Signing off...with hopes of better times to come for so many.

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

Yeah, June 5 was approximately when COVID cases started spiking Florida, so the state was ready to kill a few thousand more people if cruising restarted then.

Maybe, after you do some basic research on the topic, you can try again, cuz, not even close.

 

There was never a crisis in Florida, the number of cases never mattered and our curve was comfortably flat.

 

We were ready for cruising on June 5 because that the same day Universal Orlando Resort opened, and the day any of our theme parks could have opened.  After reviewing actual data, Orange County determined no park related spike.  There is no reason to think cruising would be any different.

 

Again, I really feel bad for you.  But it's a good thing the dire prediction you were so convinced of never materialized.  

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

There are 330 million residents of the US. Only a relatively small minority of them cruise...so...no scaring the minority who are cruisers doesn't work to convince the public as a whole.

 

Your attempt to compare what happened with the FAA , Boeing and the 737 Max with the CDC and FDA works to disprove the point you're trying to make , not support it. Rather than protecting the interests of 330 million Americans the FAA, whether due to corruption or incompetence, ending up failing the American public and instead protected the interests of a single company in one industry by approving an aircraft that never should have been allowed to fly. In contrast the CDC and FDA have worked to protect the health of our citizens rather than bow to the cruise industry.

 

Umm...hahahaha!  Oh boy...nope, nope, nope again....ayayay.

 

Here's some things call facts for you:  Cruise Industry Contributes Nearly $53 Billion to U.S. Economy in 2018

 

I said the CDC is playing the only cards it has and the only ones that matters here.  Creating an unnecessary panic and demand for a vaccine however it can, regardless of the cost in lives and economies.  They're not 'protecting' anyone just like the FAA or TSA really have no specific interest in aviation safety because they have nothing to lose, regardless of what happens.  Boeing 'influences' the FAA and Pharma 'influences' FDA/CDC.  Exactly the same thing. 

 

Ideally, ALPA should be certifying aircraft in the US because their members lives are literally in the air.  We don't need a Federal policy for cruising because it's utterly irrelevant to Montana.  CLIA can set rules acceptable to Florida and Texas, and Louisiana, Washington and whoever else want can take a free ride.

[david_sobe]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

Maybe, after you do some basic research on the topic, you can try again, cuz, not even close.

 

There was never a crisis in Florida, the number of cases never mattered and our curve was comfortably flat.

 

We were ready for cruising on June 5 because that the same day Universal Orlando Resort opened, and the day any of our theme parks could have opened.  After reviewing actual data, Orange County determined no park related spike.  There is no reason to think cruising would be any different.

 

Again, I really feel bad for you.  But it's a good thing the dire prediction you were so convinced of never materialized.  

You are joking right?  Did you see Florida's positivity rate 2 months ago?  1 in 5 tested was positive.  At one point over 200 people every day were dying in Florida due to Covid.  Florida at one point was becoming the epicenter of Covid activity having the highest rate of anywhere in the world.  Please stop spreading false opinions. It does not do anyone any good.

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, winterbliss said:

Dr. Joel Kettner, Dr. David Katz. There are many different sources that offer information to ponder without the fear and doomdom driven narrative. Just yesterday I listened to a video by a young doctor, Leland Stillman, regarding whether we should trust medical literature... I believe it is wise to possess a healthy dose of skepticism in general. To trust those in authority and accept what is being told to us is all truth and for the good of all....seems terribly unwise. Has history not yet taught us that? Signing off...with hopes of better times to come for so many.

Katz and Kettner don't seem to say anything radical...just their approaches are more nuanced than some others. And I don't see any evidence suggesting their ideas have been somehow suppressed by mainstream media since I was able to Google their names and read about them. I saw an opinion piece by Katz that was published in the NY Times on March 20....and you don't get any more mainstream than that. By the way, I don't see where anything they wrote is supported by startling scientific evidence that's different than what we see every day...they're basically stating opinions that are just slightly different and nuanced, as I already said. I don't understand why you refer to them as being "courageous". As far as Stillman is concerned he's barely out of medical school and his residency. I won't say that automatically makes what he's saying wrong, but there's nothing in his education or publications that would suggest any expertise in this area, particularly given his lack of experience.

[njhorseman]

4 hours ago, boatseller said:

Here's some things call facts for you:  Cruise Industry Contributes Nearly $53 Billion to U.S. Economy in 2018

And here's a fact for you. the 2018 US GDP was $20.5 trillion, so the cruise industry is just a pimple on the rear end of the American economy.

All the 22 million job losses suffered as the result of the pandemic are terrible and devastating to the unemployed and their families, but the cruise industry again accounts for only a small fraction of that number, and unfortunately many of those jobs, not just cruise industry jobs, have been lost permanently:

 https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/more-us-jobs-lost-to-coronavirus-pandemic-are-disappearing-permanently 

[boatseller]

13 hours ago, david_sobe said:

You are joking right?  Did you see Florida's positivity rate 2 months ago?  1 in 5 tested was positive.  At one point over 200 people every day were dying in Florida due to Covid.  Florida at one point was becoming the epicenter of Covid activity having the highest rate of anywhere in the world.  Please stop spreading false opinions. It does not do anyone any good.

Hmm...There's a word for this...WRONG!  :)

 

None of what you say is true, I'd say find the source but I don't want to waste your time.  You've been fooled by a media technique we call 'loss' harvesting where they make a misleading headline using the reported date of loss, not actual date of loss.  When Laura(?) passed, a lot of reporting was delayed by several days.  When they caught up, Boom!, super scary headline about home many people died because they were all reported the same day.  The actuals were still trending down.

 

Positivity rates never topped 12%.  And like number of cases, this is an irrelevant metric.

 

Florida was never the epicenter of anything except responsible, competent leadership.  That is why we've been ready for cruising since June 4.

[david_sobe]

7 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Hmm...There's a word for this...WRONG!  🙂

 

None of what you say is true, I'd say find the source but I don't want to waste your time.  You've been fooled by a media technique we call 'loss' harvesting where they make a misleading headline using the reported date of loss, not actual date of loss.  When Laura(?) passed, a lot of reporting was delayed by several days.  When they caught up, Boom!, super scary headline about home many people died because they were all reported the same day.  The actuals were still trending down.

 

Positivity rates never topped 12%.  And like number of cases, this is an irrelevant metric.

 

Florida was never the epicenter of anything except responsible, competent leadership.  That is why we've been ready for cruising since June 4.

I am not going to waste time in a debate.  You can check rates yourself.  I was actually wrong because the positivity rate for both Broward County and Miami-Dade county were more than the 20% that I posted.  These counties also host the 2 largest cruise ports in Florida.  In mid July 2020, the positivity rate for both counties hit 22.5%.

Competent leadership is not closing state lottery offices while demanding schools reopen in hot bed areas.  

No one wants cruising to resume more than me.  

#factsmatter

[boatseller]

10 hours ago, njhorseman said:

And here's a fact for you. the 2018 US GDP was $20.5 trillion, so the cruise industry is just a pimple on the rear end of the American economy.

All the 22 million job losses suffered as the result of the pandemic are terrible and devastating to the unemployed and their families, but the cruise industry again accounts for only a small fraction of that number, and unfortunately many of those jobs, not just cruise industry jobs, have been lost permanently:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/more-us-jobs-lost-to-coronavirus-pandemic-are-disappearing-permanently

I really feel bad for you, that you can so callously dismiss the livelihood of hundreds of thousands people, millions when considering ancillary jobs.

I'll have to repeat, again, I'm addressing the CDC's actions because they are relevant here.  ( if you want learn why California is delaying Disneyland's opening, point me to the forum )  

If the CDC had the authority to ground the airlines or (thanks heavens they don't) ban theme parks, they would.  Both are operating with no attributable 'spike' so either the CDC is wrong or corrupted (probably both) regarding cruising.  It's time the CDC's authority of cruising is ended completely.

[boatseller]

6 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

I am not going to waste time in a debate.  You can check rates yourself.  I was actually wrong because the positivity rate for both Broward County and Miami-Dade county were more than the 20% that I posted.  These counties also host the 2 largest cruise ports in Florida.  In mid July 2020, the positivity rate for both counties hit 22.5%.

Competent leadership is not closing state lottery offices while demanding schools reopen in hot bed areas.  

No one wants cruising to resume more than me.  

#factsmatter

Again, positivity rate, like number of cases doesn't matter.  It's also very, very, very easy to influence that number by encouraging symptom free people to not get tested.  "No symptoms, ok, the wait is like 45 min, your choice."  That's all it takes.  And, as I pointed out before, low positivity rates just means we're doing a lot of unnecessary testing.

 

If you really want cruising to resume, you need to learn which #factsmatter.

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, boatseller said:

I really feel bad for you, that you can so callously dismiss the livelihood of hundreds of thousands people, millions when considering ancillary jobs.

I'll have to repeat, again, I'm addressing the CDC's actions because they are relevant here.  ( if you want learn why California is delaying Disneyland's opening, point me to the forum )  

If the CDC had the authority to ground the airlines or (thanks heavens they don't) ban theme parks, they would.  Both are operating with no attributable 'spike' so either the CDC is wrong or corrupted (probably both) regarding cruising.  It's time the CDC's authority of cruising is ended completely.

I guess you conveniently didn't read what I wrote, because it certainly isn't dismissive of the job losses.: "All the 22 million job losses suffered as the result of the pandemic are terrible and devastating to the unemployed and their families," 

Why do you mention Disneyland repeatedly in your replies to my posts? I never said one word about Disneyland. 

 

 

 

[boatseller]

Just now, njhorseman said:

I guess you conveniently didn't read what I wrote, because it certainly isn't dismissive of the job losses.: "All the 22 million job losses suffered as the result of the pandemic are terrible and devastating to the unemployed and their families," 

Why do you mention Disneyland repeatedly in your replies to my posts? I never said one word about Disneyland. 

Srsly?  "the cruise industry is just a pimple on the rear end of the American economy."  Sounds pretty callous and dismissive.  

 

Umm...I mentioned Disneyland once in the context keeping this discussion on topic, cruising and the CDC.  And also as an allusion as to how certain parties are not acting in the people's best interest.

 

[hamrag]

It's Monday, the weekend is over, time to return to kindergarten! 😉