Mandatory vaccination

[DCGuy64]

36 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

What I have discovered throughout these mask discussions and debates is that half the articles and videos claim masks do no harm whatsoever and the other half claim they do harm. You will always find something to back up your agenda.

 

Having said that, I tend to believe the "do no harm" articles and videos. The reason is because medical professionals have been wearing masks for many years, for hours at a time. No one, as far as I am aware has ever been harmed by wearing a mask for all those hours. Think of the surgeons who wear masks for hours without a break. I certainly don't want any surgeon working one me who could pass out at any given time because of CO2 toxicity or lack of oxygen. It just does not happen.

 

This is what happens to your oxygen saturation when you wear a mask, or two or six.......

This is what happens to your oxygen content when you wear a mask or two or six. 

 

 

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

 

IOW there's a huge difference between occupationally wearing a mask and having to wear it all of the time. I personally don't mind wearing a mask when necessary, but again, the medical professional example is of limited importance. I doubt even they wish they could wear masks more often than they have to.

Edited March 1, 2021 by DCGuy64
added missing word "in"

[HMR74]

6 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

 

IOW there's a huge difference between occupationally wearing a mask and having to wear it all of the time. I personally don't mind wearing a mask when necessary, but again, the medical professional example is of limited importance. I doubt even they wish they could wear masks more often than they have to.

I am about done debating this entire subject  here, but I know an oncology DR/Surgeon at a major Hospital.

He got his shots, but he also wears a full contraption -the only way to explain it-that's like the astronauts, with an air conditioner/purifier included.

Thats to protect him. The masks they wore a year ago were to protect the patients while in surgery, from getting infected, if someone on the surgery team woudl have had something which they were very strict about then.

and once again I direct folks to the CDC weekly data drop--

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

 

and now we see that the deaths that "involve" COVID include on average 3.8 co morbidities.

Let's face it, people young or old, but old mostly, having 3.8 co morbidities have serious problems and if they do have 3.8, and their Doctor is not making them aware of reality, they should find a new Doctor.

Just look at the nature of the co morbidities, and any combination of them is bad news for anybody.

Then look at the comment section that discloses that covid by itself is only responsible for 6% of deaths.

 

Then tell me which way the biases go if thats not discussed in the media.

This is why I feel pretty safe out there, esp with vitamins that help my immune system fight things off ans as well not having a co morbidity that I am aware of.

Which is one reason why I woudl be open to Cruise lines getting letters from Doctors saying the patient has zero or 1 mordbitity factor and is healthy to go on a cruise. Of the Dr just telling his patient that the patient should not go on a cruise or fly because they are in a high risk situation.

 

The problem for the cruise lines is the passengers ages are skewed to higher numbers especially outside of the summer, and holiday seasons.

 

There is a full landscape of issues to be discussed.

I have seen medical discussions of how people wearing masks too much are developing dental problems.

 

I think cruising should be very  viable and enjoyable-if only true problem solving was to occur.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HMR74]

comments on RCL's sale of 1.5 billion of stock today.

https://twitter.com/Keubiko/status/1366454603722719233

 

That provides 6 months of cash burn. Others  cruise lines, I assume have the same issue.

Fain mentioned another 1 billion in "liquidity" --that' s customer deposits, I bet.

Mechanically, if they do not start their test cruises soon,  like now, 1/2 of the 6 months gets used if everything works out just right, which never happens.

 

Then they have the problem of cruising at 60 percent , give or take, capacity.

And all the costs associated with managing covid on board. All the testing, far more medical staff,

 

my view on being able to cruise stays the same:

 

vaccines required for all over 16. A policy needs to be developed for under 16. Thats a tough one for cruise lines as its meat and potatoes revenue at thanksgiving, xmas and spring break.

a cut off on comorbidities, and Dr letter

On the spot at check in to just check to see if people appear healthy enough to cruise--eg, no cough, sniffles. A Ships Dr can do that or cruise lines hire a cadre of Doctors to do that at terminals. Does their physical appearance compare to the Dr Letter, or is the Dr Letter BS.

What cruise lines should have done in connection with working with CDC , also create an advisory Board of their top tier customers who can save time and cut thru red tape to tell them all what works and what will not.

 

Its not too late-how difficult is it to go out and ID a bunch of high tier people who would be willing to give some time to ZOOM with cruise companies and CDC. Esp is they get a free cruise to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by HMR74

[zerooveride]

20 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

vaccines required for all over 16. A policy needs to be developed for under 16.

Well, this may not be a problem in the future . . . how long that future is, no one know . . .

 

https://abc7ny.com/health/covid-updates-johnson-and-johnson-to-test-their-single-dose-shot-on-children-soon/10379585/

[macandlucy]

The medical professional example: someone who is likely at high risk (while at work)

 

Off duty medical professional, or the rest of us, at the grocery store: people who don't know what the risk is, high, low, med, zero.

 

But, safest mode is to assume and act like it's high, just until vaccinated (plus a couple weeks).

 

I'm making perfect sense to myself...;)

[deefer]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

 

You just met your first medical professional who wears her mask at all times when outside (except if alone in my car).    Because it is impossible to wear a mask and eat/drink we only get take out from restaurants.   I never relax by a pool but I did play 90 minutes of pickle ball the other day and wore my mask the entire time.   I will wear a mask when outside my cabin  on my cruise in Jan 2022 (if the cruise is not cancelled 🤞).

The vaccines are fantastic but they are not 100% effective and with these new covid variants being more virulent I think it will be several more months before my habits change.  
 

Some may think this is a little over the top but It’s the only way I can be out and “living” and have peace of mind .  After personally witnessing the horror of covid I will do everything I can  (short of quarantine) to minimize my risk of getting and spreading this virus. 
 

Stay safe!  It’s still out there....The best way to beat covid is not get it!

[myk249]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:20 PM, armwinder said:

I wonder if other cruise lines will follow this example. 

If they do, I will not cruise.

 

 

 

[hallux]

6 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I certainly don't want any surgeon working one me who could pass out at any given time because of CO2 toxicity or lack of oxygen. It just does not happen.

Maybe not, but I can certainly attest to masks being troublesome during periods of high activity.  I'm now approaching 2 months since testing positive.  I can do 30 minutes without a mask on my (indoor) bike without much trouble but 5 minutes of exertion with my mask on and I need to take it off to catch my breath.  Granted - it's not a surgical mask (2 layer cloth from Beau Ties) but it's still a point of note.

[zerooveride]

New Yorkers:

 

Even though the website may say no appointments available, right now there are HUNDREDS of appointments available at multiple locations around the state. Go and book!

 

https://am-i-eligible.covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/Public/providers

[ArthurUSCG]

12 hours ago, hallux said:

Maybe not, but I can certainly attest to masks being troublesome during periods of high activity.  I'm now approaching 2 months since testing positive.  I can do 30 minutes without a mask on my (indoor) bike without much trouble but 5 minutes of exertion with my mask on and I need to take it off to catch my breath.  Granted - it's not a surgical mask (2 layer cloth from Beau Ties) but it's still a point of note.

Have you been checked for lung damage? This is likely more of a result of long term lung damage then of the mask, given you are wearing a cotton 2 layer mask, they are often highly breathable.

[DCGuy64]

16 hours ago, deefer said:

You just met your first medical professional who wears her mask at all times when outside (except if alone in my car).    Because it is impossible to wear a mask and eat/drink we only get take out from restaurants.   I never relax by a pool but I did play 90 minutes of pickle ball the other day and wore my mask the entire time.   I will wear a mask when outside my cabin  on my cruise in Jan 2022 (if the cruise is not cancelled 🤞).

The vaccines are fantastic but they are not 100% effective and with these new covid variants being more virulent I think it will be several more months before my habits change.  
 

Some may think this is a little over the top but It’s the only way I can be out and “living” and have peace of mind .  After personally witnessing the horror of covid I will do everything I can  (short of quarantine) to minimize my risk of getting and spreading this virus. 
 

Stay safe!  It’s still out there....The best way to beat covid is not get it!

Thank you for being a medical professional! We need you. My late mother was an RN and I have lots of love for the medical community.

I am 57 years old, and as best I can recall, there has never been a time that masks were worn all over the world in nearly every country, let alone mask mandates and travel bans. If this is not unprecedented, then it's certainly extremely rare, at least in modern times. I hope I'm not misreading you, but when you say the vaccines aren't 100% effective, are you saying, as a medical professional, that you think masks should be required even after the whole world is vaccinated?

I consider masks very much a necessary evil. I hate them. Hate. Them. I only wear them when required by law or because my wife demands it. Otherwise, no mask. And I don't foresee living my life with a mask on. I will either either die of Covid or I won't. (I've had it already and recovered, FYI). I don't know of any vaccine that is 100% effective against a flu virus, but there may be one. All I'm saying is that I refuse to allow others' fear of Covid to determine my actions. If the mask mandates continue ad infinitum, then I will simply move up my plans to sell all of my rental properties, retire early and move to a place in Europe where I know masks won't be required, and no, I'm not saying where. 😉

Edited March 2, 2021 by DCGuy64
deleted duplicate word

[JamieLogical]

While the vaccines approved in the US aren't 100% effective in preventing infection, they have been 100% effective in preventing death and nearly 100% effective in preventing hospitalizations in trials. Once the vast majority of Americans are vaccinated, the hospitalization and death rates for COVID-19 should be well below what we see for flu. If we weren't all wearing masks every flu season, it wouldn't make much sense for us to continue wearing masks for COVID-19 once death and hospitalization rates fall that low.

 

I posted stats a few days ago from a study out of Israel where a significant portion of the population has already been vaccinated. If we see that data reinforced as a larger percentage of the population is vaccinated, it definitely seems we will get hospitalization and death rates far below what we see for flu. Too early to know for sure, but it looks positive. Obviously, it's unlikely we will get hospitalizations and deaths down to zero, but that shouldn't be the standard. As a society, we accept a certain level of risk just to live our daily lives. We tolerated a certain number of deaths and hospitalizations from flu prior to COVID. It seams unreasonable to hold COVID to a different standard.

[d9704011]

11 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

they have been 100% effective in preventing death

That’s quite a claim.  Here is an excerpt from the CDC website:

 

Over 63 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through February 21, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 1,099 reports of death* (0.0015%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports.  A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.

[geegee1]

On 2/18/2021 at 11:51 PM, complawyer said:

again, hopefully when cruises start sailing, there has been enough vaccine to inoculate minors also

Unfortunately, as of now there are no finished tests of minors getting the vax.  I believe that they are going to start the trials for children under 16 soon, if they haven't in the last few weeks.

 

On 2/19/2021 at 6:53 AM, CILCIANRQTS said:

 

No shot = no sail.

There is no “right” to cruise, regardless of your age.

You are correct.  But the lines will lose more money if they don't allow non-vaccinated minors accompany their vaccinated parents. 

 

 

On 2/19/2021 at 10:44 AM, Buford T Justiice said:

I believe any vaccination proof will simply be self certification. Unless folks think that a random piece of paper from a city / town / county / state / province means something. Cruise lines don't have the manpower to do verification. Its simply a legal liability measure and perhaps a coming CDC directive to the cruise lines.

It would be a huge legal liability to allow be to self certify.   If a bunch of non-vaccinated people go on a cruise, self certify that they are vaccinated, then come down with Covid, the cruise lines will have to close up again.  People would lose even more faith in taking a cruise

 

On 2/24/2021 at 2:25 PM, macandlucy said:

...Is this another one of fauci’s little white lies, like his “we don’t need to wear masks” last March? Or is there something different about the currently available vaccines, that makes them work differently than other vaccines? 

This line of questioning what Fauci said last March always makes me laugh.  Last March this was a brand new virus.  As with any virus/disease the longer it is around the more you learn.  They learned pretty quick that masks work. Yes, they said at first not to, because they thought they needed to protect the medical community first.  Then they realized that it was an out of control virus and that masks work.

And as the vaccine is around longer the longer we will know if this vax works differently.  What is the harm in continue wearing a mask if you are vaccinated?

[JamieLogical]

39 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

That’s quite a claim.  Here is an excerpt from the CDC website:

 

Over 63 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through February 21, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 1,099 reports of death* (0.0015%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports.  A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.

 

I specifically said IN TRIALS. You cut off that part when you quoted me. Also, "death after receiving COVID vaccine" is pretty misleading. First of all, it doesn't say "death FROM COVID". I got my vaccine last Thursday. I could be hit by a car today and die.... Second, it doesn't say anything about where they were in the vaccination process. Was this after one dose? Was this after a second dose? How long after the second dose. I don't think the numbers are going to be 100% at scale. Which is why I specifically said IN TRIALS, but I do think they will ultimately prove to be lower than flu deaths. We will see. I am optimistic. But clearly, much more data is needed.

[winterbliss]

12 minutes ago, geegee1 said:

Unfortunately, as of now there are no finished tests of minors getting the vax.  I believe that they are going to start the trials for children under 16 soon, if they haven't in the last few weeks.

 

You are correct.  But the lines will lose more money if they don't allow non-vaccinated minors accompany their vaccinated parents. 

 

 

It would be a huge legal liability to allow be to self certify.   If a bunch of non-vaccinated people go on a cruise, self certify that they are vaccinated, then come down with Covid, the cruise lines will have to close up again.  People would lose even more faith in taking a cruise

 

This line of questioning what Fauci said last March always makes me laugh.  Last March this was a brand new virus.  As with any virus/disease the longer it is around the more you learn.  They learned pretty quick that masks work. Yes, they said at first not to, because they thought they needed to protect the medical community first.  Then they realized that it was an out of control virus and that masks work.

And as the vaccine is around longer the longer we will know if this vax works differently.  What is the harm in continue wearing a mask if you are vaccinated?

Actually, there are no completed studies for all the adults either. Those dates are well off into the future. Experimental EUA. I'm amazed that many that I have spoken to don't realize that.

[d9704011]

15 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

I specifically said IN TRIALS. You cut off that part when you quoted me. Also, "death after receiving COVID vaccine" is pretty misleading. First of all, it doesn't say "death FROM COVID". I got my vaccine last Thursday. I could be hit by a car today and die.... Second, it doesn't say anything about where they were in the vaccination process. Was this after one dose? Was this after a second dose? How long after the second dose. I don't think the numbers are going to be 100% at scale. Which is why I specifically said IN TRIALS, but I do think they will ultimately prove to be lower than flu deaths. We will see. I am optimistic. But clearly, much more data is needed.

Yes, that’s true.  I did not mean to be argumentative and don’t wish to engage in dispute on the vaccine(s);  the 100% no deaths following vaccination caught my eye and I mistakenly went with that.

[geegee1]

20 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

 

IOW there's a huge difference between occupationally wearing a mask and having to wear it all of the time. I personally don't mind wearing a mask when necessary, but again, the medical professional example is of limited importance. I doubt even they wish they could wear masks more often than they have to.

My wife is a fully vaccinated nurse.  She wears a mask when she goes to the store, when outside in a crowded area.  Wears it when at an outside restaurant giving the server her order.  She doesn't have any plans to stop doing that any time soon.

 

For all those that say they can't wear a mask for whatever ridiculous reason, read this - http://www.gunnaresiason.com/mask-wearing-the-dumbest-binary-political-issue-out-there/  

[DCGuy64]

32 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

I specifically said IN TRIALS. You cut off that part when you quoted me. Also, "death after receiving COVID vaccine" is pretty misleading. First of all, it doesn't say "death FROM COVID". I got my vaccine last Thursday. I could be hit by a car today and die.... Second, it doesn't say anything about where they were in the vaccination process. Was this after one dose? Was this after a second dose? How long after the second dose. I don't think the numbers are going to be 100% at scale. Which is why I specifically said IN TRIALS, but I do think they will ultimately prove to be lower than flu deaths. We will see. I am optimistic. But clearly, much more data is needed.

God forbid that should happen to you. However, and I know it's anecdotal, but some individuals who died in car accidents WERE listed as "dying of Covid" because it was discovered in them post-mortem.

Of course, anecdotal evidence isn't statistically relevant, but it can't be wholly dismissed.

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

4 minutes ago, geegee1 said:

My wife is a fully vaccinated nurse.  She wears a mask when she goes to the store, when outside in a crowded area.  Wears it when at an outside restaurant giving the server her order.  She doesn't have any plans to stop doing that any time soon.

 

For all those that say they can't wear a mask for whatever ridiculous reason, read this - http://www.gunnaresiason.com/mask-wearing-the-dumbest-binary-political-issue-out-there/  

I live in the Washington, DC area, and have done since 1996. In that time, I have NEVER witnessed wholesale wearing of masks, and that includes when working near a major hospital. If what you say is true, I should have witnessed medical personnel walking around outside on their lunch breaks with masks. Never happened. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

[DCGuy64]

For me, the giant elephant in the room isn't whether masks and other mitigation measures are effective or not, it's whether the public's seeming acceptance of these things is a harbinger. I'll put my cards on the table here: my belief is that there are certain types of people who love to exercise control over others. And the degree to which they see populations bowing down to lock down measures in the interest of public health, is the degree to which they can leverage that subservience in the future to their own ends. I hear @JamieLogical say that we shouldn't need to have mask wearing, etc. once vaccinations bring down the number of deaths from Covid, and I hope that's true. But I have witnessed many people in my own community and others say "wear the damn mask" and other "just do as you're told" things, that I fully believe the public has been primed to just accept these things virtually without question in the future. And I have 0 faith in politicians not to capitalize on that obedience by feigning or creating another public health crisis in the future so they can exercise control. It's not about Covid, it's about whether or not we tolerate being dictated to, or not. If Covid is the exception to the rule, and I'm wrong, great. But if it just provides a template for the future, don't say you weren't warned. I would flip the question around and say "can anyone 100% guarantee me that we won't have mask wearing, social distancing, closed down schools, bars, restaurants, barber shops and churches closed again in the future?" If we can talk about 100% vaccine effectiveness, then I want to talk about 100% effectiveness against outrageous lock downs.

[geegee1]

12 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I live in the Washington, DC area, and have done since 1996. In that time, I have NEVER witnessed wholesale wearing of masks, and that includes when working near a major hospital. If what you say is true, I should have witnessed medical personnel walking around outside on their lunch breaks with masks. Never happened. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

Since COVID started this is absolutely true.  First of all you have to wear as mask in NY in any public place like a grocery store.

[graphicguy]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:27 AM, HMR74 said:

I think , while I have received the vaccination, that ther is a decent amount of concern about the intermediate and long term adverse effect of the vaccines-it probably is fine, however, its not proven .

 

Remember ordinarily it takes 5 years to develop and trial a vaccine and they did it in less than a year. Cutting red tape  to fast track is one thing, cutting trials is another. The EUA was meant to be used in extreme situations for basically people on deathbeds so the untested unapproved vaccines were used as a last ditch effort under the EUA. It is also why drug companies have indemnification.

 

Now many are  running  to it right or wrong.

My tipping point in favor is a bunch of our friends have kids who are "hip" and doctors and said the risk is worth it. But to deny that there is risk is crazy.

 

ANY drug has risk, even something as innocuous as aspirin.  

 

It's pretty simple to tell the difference between the vast majority of medical professionals who know more than me (us) about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines.  The vast majority of them recommend them whole heartedly.

 

We've seen the nay sayers.  I'm trying to be kind.  But, they are mostly quacks, or unqualified (sometimes both).  For a while there, I know there was an infamous Preacher and a Chiropractor  who were pitching crazy stuff regarding COVID. 

 

But, taking the authorized vaccines are going to be required to cruise.  Royal just announced a sailing from Israel for a fully vaccinated cruise.

 

I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.  But, if you don't want to get the COVIC vaccine, regardless of reason, be prepared that you won't be cruising.

 

Think of it this way, would you want to cruise with someone who's susceptible and perhaps infected with Tuberculosis?  How about polio?  Of course not, they are all preventable with vaccines.  At one point, those were very real and dangerous diseases that were practically eradicated over time.  

 

Regardless of your feelings, you're going to need a COVID vaccine to cruise.  You can complain about it, whine about it, be stubborn about it.  What you won't be able to do is cruise without it.  And, it will be good for everyone who cruises.

[ArthurUSCG]

28 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I live in the Washington, DC area, and have done since 1996. In that time, I have NEVER witnessed wholesale wearing of masks, and that includes when working near a major hospital. If what you say is true, I should have witnessed medical personnel walking around outside on their lunch breaks with masks. Never happened. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

I'm in Southern MD, an area that is pretty red, and there is wholesale mask wearing except for when outside. But given the ruralness of my county, there's not much need to wear as mask when your not around other people. There are segments of the population here that are highly against wearing masks, but like my neighbors, once they have a family member die alone in the hospital, they quickly change their view.

[HMR74]

4 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

ANY drug has risk, even something as innocuous as aspirin.  

 

It's pretty simple to tell the difference between the vast majority of medical professionals who know more than me (us) about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines.  The vast majority of them recommend them whole heartedly.

 

We've seen the nay sayers.  I'm trying to be kind.  But, they are mostly quacks, or unqualified (sometimes both).  For a while there, I know there was an infamous Preacher and a Chiropractor  who were pitching crazy stuff regarding COVID. 

 

But, taking the authorized vaccines are going to be required to cruise.  Royal just announced a sailing from Israel for a fully vaccinated cruise.

 

I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.  But, if you don't want to get the COVIC vaccine, regardless of reason, be prepared that you won't be cruising.

 

Think of it this way, would you want to cruise with someone who's susceptible and perhaps infected with Tuberculosis?  How about polio?  Of course not, they are all preventable with vaccines.  At one point, those were very real and dangerous diseases that were practically eradicated over time.  

 

Regardless of your feelings, you're going to need a COVID vaccine to cruise.  You can complain about it, whine about it, be stubborn about it.  What you won't be able to do is cruise without it.  And, it will be good for everyone who cruises.

I have been with a medical practice for 45 years now.  I have been with 3 Doctors over that time frame and a few years back the practice was sold to one of the big consortium's.

 

Here is the relevant issue:

 

Last summer annual physical I asked my Dr, about Hydroxychloraquine and Ivermectin and therapeutics to fight covid.

 

He flat out said he would not give me a prescription for them.

 

But then he said that if I was to come in possession of them via another prescriber,  he would not oppose it for me.

Clearly "big brother", the large medical group, is in control and that's a reality of life.

Remember there is a ton of money involved with pharma and the groups and politicians (called "lobbys",  ever hear  of them) and bureaucrats. 

 

fringe groups liked the idea of HCQ and Ivermectin but they got shouted down by CDC and NIH and Fauci,  and media and censored by Google, Facebook, Twitter etc.

 

Fast forward to Feb 2021: both are now  on approved list.  Both are cheap and safe and effective theraputics--Ivermectin is close to if not at 100%. And both have long histories, HCQ 55 years in use for other issues, and minimal side effects. HCQ 80% effective. Which will probably be more than the vaccines in the end.

 

The big pharma companies are the biggest doners to campaigns, and they do not want cheap competitive solutions to their megabuck solutions.

 

 

Also, I posted twice about CDC saying in 6% of the covid deaths, now over 500,000, was covod the only morbidity factor and on average the others has 3.8 co morbidities.

 

I think we have a virus problem, however, I also believe that poor use/interpretation  of data has been leading us to improper conclusions and implementations of solutions, which, I also believe has been too ineffective and harmful in many ways.

 

One issue is who do you believe or trust. It takes a lot of time and energy to understand the dynamics of all of this.

 

Over and out.