Cruising Without a Vaccination

[winterbliss]

24 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

That is another mantra I'm sick and tired of hearing..........

 

The breakthrough rate of infection of vaccinated people is 0.008%. The chance of a vaccinated person with a break through infection transmitting the virus to others is extremely low. Couple that with the low viral load that has been revealed in studies of breakthrough infections, the transmission rate becomes essentially zero. This is why vaccinated people essentially pose zero threat to anyone.

 

0.008% Breakthrough rate for vaccinated people

Oh, hello there. I think you and I have been going back and forth from time to time. I hope I'm not offending you in any way.

Are you aware that last month the CDC requested the CT value of the PCR tests for vaccinated people to <-28? 

 

Also, starting May 14, the CDC are changing the way breakthrough cases are reported, to those that result in hospitalization or death. I find that interesting as well. And bear in mind, this is a passive reporting system.

Edited May 7, 2021 by winterbliss

[coffeebean]

15 minutes ago, winterbliss said:

Oh, hello there. I think you and I have been going back and forth from time to time. I hope I'm not offending you in any way.

Are you aware that last month the CDC requested the CT value of the PCR tests for vaccinated people to <-28? 

 

Also, starting May 14, the CDC are changing the way breakthrough cases are reported, to those that result in hospitalization or death. I find that interesting as well. And bear in mind, this is a passive reporting system.

Yes, you and I have been going back and forth from time to time. I welcome the discussion.

[sugcarol]

I dont understand why people who dont want the vax and have no intention of wearing masks on a ship or other restrictions bother to post. They contribute nothing.i get it some dont want the restrictions but why bother bantering back and forth ad nauseum. I want to cruise and if restrictions are in place i will comply.

[NW Pacific]

Best wishes to all that choose not to be vaccinated, your decisions.  We are fully vaccinated and our families, our decisions.  Have  friend die, a relative still 6 months later coping with flares up, so we choose to get protection!  Want to Cruise again, hopefully on a fully vaccinated Ship, masks no problem, fun at sea!!

[cscurlock]

4 minutes ago, NW Pacific said:

Best wishes to all that choose not to be vaccinated, your decisions.  We are fully vaccinated and our families, our decisions.  Have  friend die, a relative still 6 months later coping with flares up, so we choose to get protection!  Want to Cruise again, hopefully on a fully vaccinated Ship, masks no problem, fun at sea!!

At the end of the day it will be required because the cruise ships can't afford having unvaccinated people getting seriously ill and having to turn the ship around and quarantining the entire ship and ruin peoples vacations.  It would be a financial disaster and the cruise lines would face even tougher restrictions from the CDC.  They will not let that happen.  

[BermudaBound2014]

On 5/7/2021 at 7:56 AM, winterbliss said:

Perhaps read the paper in Medicina by Dr Ronald Brown. Outcome Reporting Bias in Covid-19 mRNA Vaccine trials. While complex, it's important.

 

Explain to me why it would seem prudent to push for 100 per cent vaccination when this important part of the equation and how it relates to the actual efficacy is hidden. Again, certainly not seeing this researcher on tv debating with public health officials. I wonder why.

 

Without getting too technical for the CC forum, I think Dr. Brown may have found the rational for the CDC still requiring masks........ 

 

"Yet, the manufacturers failed to report absolute risk reduction measures in publicly released documents." "Such examples of outcome reporting bias mislead and distort the public’s interpretation of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine efficacy and violate the ethical and legal obligations of informed consent."

 

IMO: This is a possible explanation why the CDC still recommends vaccinated people wear masks. Certainly we can all agree that mask wearing on 100% vaccinated cruise ships defies logic. The CDC recognized that there are far too many variables yet unknown.

 

If you fail to acknowledge that covid data is being manipulated, you also fail to demonstrate even the most elementary levels of critical thinking. 

 

Here is a link to the article for those who have yet to read it: 

  https://www.mdpi.com/1648-9144/57/3/199/htm

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[WICKEDIRISH]

On 5/6/2021 at 9:22 PM, coffeebean said:

The mRNA vaccines are an astonishing development of modern technology.

Until they're not

[WICKEDIRISH]

On 5/6/2021 at 9:46 PM, coffeebean said:

Long term side effects from the vaccines are NOT expected and have been determined WILL NOT to occur in the future. That is the science.

That is the science today.  Until it's determined in the future that there ARE side effects.

[WICKEDIRISH]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:05 AM, winterbliss said:

I advocate for informed consent devoid of coercion and perpetual fear. That is not what is happening.

PREACH!!

[graphicguy]

On 5/6/2021 at 3:27 AM, KateQ22003 said:

This is not accurate. I am undergoing chemo, and have been for years. Both my oncologist and pharmacist encouraged me to be vaccinated, so I am. They both feel the benefits outweigh the risks. Chemotherapy might limit the vaccine's effectiveness, but cancer patients are high risk and partial immunity is better than none. I prefer not to roll the dice on COVID.

My hope and prayer is that you'll be up and cruising very soon.  You're a brave fighter.

[kona_wahine]

I’m vaccinated, Pfizer. Proudly. And I was WAY more afraid of the the side affects of Covid then the vaccine. The long haul side affects are frightening. My doctor explained the vaccine will not change your DNA, but having the virus could. That was good enough for me. I have family that seem to welcome getting Covid, say it’s just the flu, people die, blah blah blah. Stupid arguments. But yet they suck on their vape pens and ciggies,  sucking who knows what into their lungs. SMDH

[Navis]

7 minutes ago, kona_wahine said:

I’m vaccinated, Pfizer. Proudly. And I was WAY more afraid of the the side affects of Covid then the vaccine. The long haul side affects are frightening. My doctor explained the vaccine will not change your DNA, but having the virus could. That was good enough for me. I have family that seem to welcome getting Covid, say it’s just the flu, people die, blah blah blah. Stupid arguments. But yet they suck on their vape pens and ciggies,  sucking who knows what into their lungs. SMDH

That’s one of the amazing things about these new mRNA vaccines! Because they are just messages and not actual

virus they only enter the cell periphery. Once there, the message is processed by the cell, which in turns generates a replica “spike protein” of the virus and displays it on the cell wall to be identified by the immune system and eliminated (building immunity).

 

That is what is always crazy to me about people making these crazy false statements about “altering DNA.” That is 100% impossible for an mRNA vaccine! Only the cell nucleus contains our DNA and the vaccines are not taken in to the nucleus. But you are right, you know what IS taken into your cells’ nucleus? The virus itself! Why? Because it is the cell nucleus that is responsible for identifying a virus and generating the mRNA message to raise a defense to the threat. 
 

So, again, people can decide for themselves what is right for them, but they should at least be doing so based on fact and not hyperbole or misinformation. 

[coffeebean]

On 5/10/2021 at 4:23 PM, WICKEDIRISH said:

Until they're not

I have seen experts on more than one occasion on TV informing the public that vaccines, in history, have always had adverse reactions happen within a few weeks of administration, NOT MONTHS and definitely NOT YEARS. The mRNA vaccines have been in people's arms for several months now and these experts continue to repeat that there is no reason to expect any adverse reactions from the two mRNA vaccines in the future.

 

 

 

 

[coffeebean]

On 5/11/2021 at 6:25 PM, Navis said:

That’s one of the amazing things about these new mRNA vaccines! Because they are just messages and not actual

virus they only enter the cell periphery. Once there, the message is processed by the cell, which in turns generates a replica “spike protein” of the virus and displays it on the cell wall to be identified by the immune system and eliminated (building immunity).

 

That is what is always crazy to me about people making these crazy false statements about “altering DNA.” That is 100% impossible for an mRNA vaccine! Only the cell nucleus contains our DNA and the vaccines are not taken in to the nucleus. But you are right, you know what IS taken into your cells’ nucleus? The virus itself! Why? Because it is the cell nucleus that is responsible for identifying a virus and generating the mRNA message to raise a defense to the threat. 
 

So, again, people can decide for themselves what is right for them, but they should at least be doing so based on fact and not hyperbole or misinformation. 

Do you honestly think anti-vaxxers and those who are hesitant will take the time to actually understand this mRNA technology? I think not or they would embrace the vaccine. They are not receptive to this technology and they do not understand that it is impossible to change a person's DNA. They also don't seem to grasp that the messenger is eliminated by the body very rapidly.

 

I have read all about how these mRNA vaccines work on the CDC website. I have posted this information countless times on the cruise forums I visit and other forums too.I trust the CDC. Unfortunately, there are many people wary of these vaccines that do not trust the CDC. Sadly, I don't think many people who are refusing the vaccine have taken the time to read the information and get a grasp of how these vaccines actually do their job of protection.

[Briji04]

On 4/30/2021 at 9:41 AM, MeHeartCruising said:

 

A centralized medical record may exist where you live and using your medical providers, but that is not a universal construct here in the USA.  I live in a rural area with a small, independent hospital with it's own medical records system.  Any treatment I get with that hospital or it's employees is stored in their system.  But anything I get done at a different hospital system (in the larger cities 45 or 90 miles away) are not in that same system.  My vaccination was done by an independent pharmacy chain.  They did not do anything to put my vaccination into the local hospital's record system.  I had a visit with my Doctor a month after my 2nd vaccination and he told me there was no record of it in the medical records.  Yes, it is my insurance company's records.  Yes, it is in the pharmacies records.  But the medical professionals do not have access to that data.

 

It is possible the pharmacy also had to enter my data into a government vaccine tracking database, but I haven't seen proof of that anywhere.  If it exists, I would think it's at the state level and not federal.

 

However, I hope they have a way to catch fake cards.  I condemn those that try to do this.

Your vaccine was registered in your state vaccine system by whoever gave you the injection. In your case the pharmacy. We are a rural one  physician practice and have access to state records. This is something every office must do if they are giving any kind of vaccine. This includes all vaccines ie MMR, Shingles, Dtap. Etc. 

[Navis]

23 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Do you honestly think anti-vaxxers and those who are hesitant will take the time to actually understand this mRNA technology? I think not or they would embrace the vaccine. They are not receptive to this technology and they do not understand that it is impossible to change a person's DNA. They also don't seem to grasp that the messenger is eliminated by the body very rapidly.

 

I have read all about how these mRNA vaccines work on the CDC website. I have posted this information countless times on the cruise forums I visit and other forums too.I trust the CDC. Unfortunately, there are many people wary of these vaccines that do not trust the CDC. Sadly, I don't think many people who are refusing the vaccine have taken the time to read the information and get a grasp of how these vaccines actually do their job of protection.

You are 100% correct and I don’t expect much from my posts on this topic, but if there is at least one person out there who reads them with an open mind then I think it’s worth my time ... regardless of what they actually decide.

 

What truly upsets me is all the misinformation that is out there! And how they use social media to create an echo chamber to try to give legitimacy to their ridiculous claims and that it might confuse someone out there who just doesn’t know where to turn.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

Do you honestly think anti-vaxxers and those who are hesitant will take the time to actually understand this mRNA technology? I think not or they would embrace the vaccine. They are not receptive to this technology and they do not understand that it is impossible to change a person's DNA. They also don't seem to grasp that the messenger is eliminated by the body very rapidly.

 

This statement is ridiculous. Plenty of "anti-vaxxers" understand the technology and still don't embrace it.    This coming from someone who found it 'too technical' to read the study from Dr. Martin about how vaccine efficiency has been reported?? You turn a blind eye to possible errors in reporting, yet tell me I'm not receptive? At least I am open see both sides of this very complex dynamic.

 

Quite frankly, you are out of line with this post. It's insulting to more than 50% of the population. You do realize that the best state in the nation only has 46% of it's population fully vaccinated? 40 out of 50 states have less than 40% fully vaccinated. There are 8 states with less than 30% of the population vaccinated? Does it really make sense to you that all the 'anti-vaxxers' are unable to 'grasp' it???? 

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

[Navis]

13 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

This statement is ridiculous. Plenty of "anti-vaxxers" understand the technology and still don't embrace it.    This coming from someone who found it 'too technical' to read the study from Dr. Martin about how vaccine efficiency has been reported?? You turn a blind eye to possible errors in reporting, yet tell me I'm not receptive? At least I am open see both sides of this very complex dynamic.

 

Quite frankly, you are out of line with this post. It's insulting to more than 50% of the population. You do realize that the best state in the nation only has 46% of it's population fully vaccinated? 40 out of 50 states have less than 40% fully vaccinated. There are 8 states with less than 30% of the population vaccinated? Does it really make sense to you that all the 'anti-vaxxers' are unable to 'grasp' it???? 

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

Your numbers are accurate regarding full vaccination, but why did you not report people that are in process (i.e., have had their first shot). In my state, that number is already in the mid-70s. And in 3 weeks that is where our “full vaccination” numbers will be ... the vaccinations were only open to all adults 3 weeks ago so of course there is a lag. 

As for efficacy, that is of course a wait and see, but in actuality the 94/95% that was quoted has proved to be severely understated ... studies have shown it is 99.992% effective. I’ll add to that the results in my highly vaccinated state have been amazing ... cases have dropped off the cliff (like down 400% month over month) and yesterday was the first day in almost a year we reported 0 COVID deaths.  So, yes, more studies and observations are always the right answer but everything we are seeing up here is that vaccination has been a complete game changer. 
 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, Navis said:

Your numbers are accurate regarding full vaccination, but why did you not report people that are in process (i.e., have had their first shot). In my state, that number is already in the mid-70s. And in 3 weeks that is where our “full vaccination” numbers will be ... the vaccinations were only open to all adults 3 weeks ago so of course there is a lag. 

As for efficacy, that is of course a wait and see, but in actuality the 94/95% that was quoted has proved to be severely understated ... studies have shown it is 99.992% effective. I’ll add to that the results in my highly vaccinated state have been amazing ... cases have dropped off the cliff (like down 400% month over month) and yesterday was the first day in almost a year we reported 0 COVID deaths.  So, yes, more studies and observations are always the right answer but everything we are seeing up here is that vaccination has been a complete game changer. 
 

 

 

That's fair. I'm all for full reporting. From the same article... Only 46.2 % of the population has received one dose. I agree this is lagging behind and the numbers will likely rise. The latest prediction I have seen is that the USA will be lucky to get to 60% fully vaccinated. Let's just error on the side of MORE vaccinations. Let's say the USA eventually gets to 70% fully vaccinated. Does that suggest that 30% of the people unable to understand how the mRNA works? Suggesting 30% of the nation can't 'grasp' the concept is insulting to a large percentage of Americans.

 

As of 6 a.m. EDT May 11, a total of 334,081,065 vaccine doses had been distributed in the U.S., and 263,132,561 had been administered, or 78.76 percent. Additionally, 153,448,316 people had received at least one dose of the vaccine, and 116,576,359 had been fully vaccinated. That means 46.2 percent of the U.S. population had received at least one dose of the vaccine, and 35.1 percent had been fully vaccinated.

 

 

On another note, I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I happen to believe that the current injections are efficient. I also believe natural immunity is efficient and, perhaps, more desirable in the long run. I believe that several variables are responsible for why numbers have dropped (thankfully). I do not believe that injections are the sole factor.  I also know that those in the surgery department at University of Michigan are already making a schedule for administering the booster injection as the general belief is that it will be required shortly. This is a very complex problem with lots of moving parts. 

[Navis]

12 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

That's fair. I'm all for full reporting. From the same article... Only 46.2 % of the population has received one dose. I agree this is lagging behind and the numbers will likely rise. The latest prediction I have seen is that the USA will be lucky to get to 60% fully vaccinated. Let's just error on the side of MORE vaccinations. Let's say the USA eventually gets to 70% fully vaccinated. Does that suggest that 30% of the people unable to understand how the mRNA works? Suggesting 30% of the nation can't 'grasp' the concept is insulting to a large percentage of Americans.

 

As of 6 a.m. EDT May 11, a total of 334,081,065 vaccine doses had been distributed in the U.S., and 263,132,561 had been administered, or 78.76 percent. Additionally, 153,448,316 people had received at least one dose of the vaccine, and 116,576,359 had been fully vaccinated. That means 46.2 percent of the U.S. population had received at least one dose of the vaccine, and 35.1 percent had been fully vaccinated.

 

 

On another note, I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I happen to believe that the current injections are efficient. I also believe natural immunity is efficient and, perhaps, more desirable in the long run. I believe that several variables are responsible for why numbers have dropped (thankfully). I do not believe that injections are the sole factor.  I also know that those in the surgery department at University of Michigan are already making a schedule for administering the booster injection as the general belief is that it will be required shortly. This is a very complex problem with lots of moving parts. 

Sorry for the confusion, no .. I would never say that 30% don’t understand the vaccines. I agree with you that the decision is multi factor for sure and a very personal one.

 

My hope is that over time we’ll get a clearer picture and we can look around the country and see how it all plays out ... where are the outbreaks? How many deaths/hospitalizations? What are the trends? ... That kind of data.  I know in my state the polls say we’ll be around 95% vaccinated when this is all said and done so maybe some of us high vaccination states can serve as tests to see how it all plays out? At the same time I fully support more studies about efficacy, natural immunity and anything else that will help us get our arms around this to get back to normal.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Navis

[Stallion]

yes but 58.7% of those over 18 have gotten at least one dose--and those under 18 have only recently become eligible. 84% of those over 65 have had at least one dose. The fact is-sorry if it makes people mad-but the traditionally Democratic states are all headed to community herd immunity by mid June to late summer. The traditionally Republican states may never get there-with some states projecting into as late as mid-2022. Those are operative, relevant facts that should be analyzed to defeat Covid. Some of us are getting to community herd immunity-the others will have to see what happens to their community when the fall flu season hits

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations

 

https://www.npr.org/960901166

Edited May 13, 2021 by Stallion

[harkinmr]

4 minutes ago, Stallion said:

yes but 58.7% of those over 18 have gotten at least one dose--and those under 18 have only recently become eligible. 84% of those over 65 have had at least one dose. The fact is-sorry if it makes people mad-but the traditionally Democratic states are all headed to herd immunity by mid June to late summer. The traditionally Republican states may never get there-with some states projecting into 2022 and 2023. Some of us are getting to community herd immunity-the others will have to see what happens to their community when the fall flu season hits

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations

 

https://www.npr.org/960901166

Thank you.  All one needs to do is look at the map and see where uptake has been successful and where the struggle continues.  If there are continued outbreaks in states not achieving herd immunity and more variants appear, I can see some states restricting travel just as was done at the beginning of the pandemic. That would be unfortunate to say the least. 

[KateQ22003]

On 5/11/2021 at 3:16 PM, graphicguy said:

My hope and prayer is that you'll be up and cruising very soon.  You're a brave fighter.

Thank you so much. As they say, there are good days and bad days. But  you know what would help??? A CRUISE!!! I swear I spend half my days researching cruises and the other half reminiscing about great cruises I have done. I think it's a sickness 🙂

[winterbliss]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-gov-mike-dewine-lottery-vaccinated-citizens

 

I rest my case for whatever.

Edited May 13, 2021 by winterbliss

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, winterbliss said:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-gov-mike-dewine-lottery-vaccinated-citizens

 

I rest my case for whatever.

You can question the method but the motives are simple and laudable: To address vaccine hesitancy in his state and, as the Governor says, to save lives and achieve herd immunity for his state and the country.  
 

“I know that some may say, ‘DeWine, you’re crazy!’ ” Mr. DeWine said on Twitter. “‘This million-dollar drawing idea of yours is a waste of money.’ But truly, the real waste at this point in the pandemic — when the vaccine is readily available to anyone who wants it — is a life lost to COVID-19.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/us/ohio-lottery-coronavirus-vaccine.html