Cruising Without a Vaccination

[coffeebean]

10 hours ago, Navis said:

You are 100% correct and I don’t expect much from my posts on this topic, but if there is at least one person out there who reads them with an open mind then I think it’s worth my time ... regardless of what they actually decide.

 

What truly upsets me is all the misinformation that is out there! And how they use social media to create an echo chamber to try to give legitimacy to their ridiculous claims and that it might confuse someone out there who just doesn’t know where to turn.

I applaud you and thank you.

[winterbliss]

49 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

You can question the method but the motives are simple and laudable: To address vaccine hesitancy in his state and, as the Governor says, to save lives and achieve herd immunity for his state and the country.  
 

“I know that some may say, ‘DeWine, you’re crazy!’ ” Mr. DeWine said on Twitter. “‘This million-dollar drawing idea of yours is a waste of money.’ But truly, the real waste at this point in the pandemic — when the vaccine is readily available to anyone who wants it — is a life lost to COVID-19.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/us/ohio-lottery-coronavirus-vaccine.html

 

 

 

 

Whether interventions end up being part of the solutions or not, don't you think the ethics of implementing interventions would be important. If we negate that, aren't we at risk of greater ills, as human beings? 

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, winterbliss said:

Whether interventions end up being part of the solutions or not, don't you think the ethics of implementing interventions would be important. If we negate that, aren't we at risk of greater ills, as human beings? 

Incentives for being vaccinated are just that: incentives.  Those who take advantage of them are not being forced to be vaccinated.  Anyone with any heartfelt concerns about the vaccines are not likely to take advantage of the incentive. And, if they do, then it brings into question the strength of those concerns.  The vaccines are safe and effective and will be fully approved within a month or two. They are a savior for this pandemic and have, unfortunately, been painted as otherwise in many corners. 

[DCGuy64]

11 hours ago, Navis said:

What truly upsets me is all the misinformation that is out there! And how they use social media to create an echo chamber to try to give legitimacy to their ridiculous claims and that it might confuse someone out there who just doesn’t know where to turn.

You said a mouthful there and I agree with all of it. One of the main reasons I quit social media last year was this. For me, it was having to listen to those I already agreed with (the echo chamber) or having futile arguments with people who never wanted to listen to anybody else's arguments. It was useless. So I gave up.

[KennyFla]

12 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Do you honestly think anti-vaxxers and those who are hesitant will take the time to actually understand this mRNA technology? I think not or they would embrace the vaccine. They are not receptive to this technology and they do not understand that it is impossible to change a person's DNA. They also don't seem to grasp that the messenger is eliminated by the body very rapidly.

 

I have read all about how these mRNA vaccines work on the CDC website. I have posted this information countless times on the cruise forums I visit and other forums too.I trust the CDC. Unfortunately, there are many people wary of these vaccines that do not trust the CDC. Sadly, I don't think many people who are refusing the vaccine have taken the time to read the information and get a grasp of how these vaccines actually do their job of protection.

From the way I understand how your body builds immunity, your cells take a fragment of the virus, and do incorporate it into your DNA.  That is why when the virus enters your body, your cells can recognize it right away, go to that portion of your DNA, and build the correct antibodies.

 

This is a totally normal process.  And it seems to provide an answer why everyone's DNA is unique.  So, yes your DNA changes.

 

The mRNA vaccines cut out the middleman, take the genetic code supplied and prepare for the virus.  This was always done in the past with "dead" virus.

 

Anyway, that's how I understand it.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

[DCGuy64]

Part of the frustration I feel is the intransigence of those who believe a statistic on one day, demand that others agree with it, too, and then when proven wrong, refuse to acknowledge that maybe their "opponent" might have been right to begin with. By way of example:

 

Example 1: For months I have been of the opinion that wearing a mask outdoors is unnecessary, yet there are those who have consistently said that if there's some chance at all, no matter how small, everyone should wear one (and in some cases be fined or put in jail if they don't.) Yet recently the CDC updated its guidance to say that masks outside were unnecessary. (including on cruise ships, FYI) Now, do all of those who demanded others wear masks plan to take back their nasty, judgmental and condescending comments and apologize to those who, as it turns out, were right all along?

 

Example 2: I have also been told that vaccines were effective to 95%, so many have ignored that very high rate and instead focused on the remaining 5%, as though all restrictions must stay in place for that tiny amount. But now we see statistics showing the efficacy of the vaccines is over 99%. So will the "naysayers" FINALLY realize it's safe for society to go back to normal?

 

I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm going back to normal, because the SCIENCE supports it.

If others want to remain perpetually in lock down, then THEY are the science deniers, not me.

I am sadly quite skeptical that people who are intrenched in the lock down mentality will change their minds, because they're as dug in as the anti-vax crowd.

 

[harkinmr]

30 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

From the way I understand how your body builds immunity, your cells take a fragment of the virus, and do incorporate it into your DNA.  That is why when the virus enters your body, your cells can recognize it right away, go to that portion of your DNA, and build the correct antibodies.

 

This is a totally normal process.  And it seems to provide an answer why everyone's DNA is unique.  So, yes your DNA changes.

 

The mRNA vaccines cut out the middleman, take the genetic code supplied and prepare for the virus.  This was always done in the past with "dead" virus.

 

Anyway, that's how I understand it.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

The vaccine does not impact DNA. 
 

“In addition, the mRNA never actually enters the nucleus of your cells, where your DNA resides. Because the two don’t share the same space, the mRNA doesn’t interact with your DNA and therefore can’t alter it. Your cells break down and get rid of the mRNA quickly.”

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/vaccine-myths-facts-vs-fiction

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by harkinmr

[Sinbadssailors]

mRNA vaccines have been studied for years, but not approved anywhere until now, why? At one point (in a study I read from 2017), there was a very real concern that our immune systems would overreact in the future,  when exposed to something new.  I guess they got past that? IDK

 

But I decide whether or not to get the shot based on my political party? Am I a potato?

 

The divide in this country is really due to the absolute fact that there are people on both sides who think the other side makes decisions only because they're uninformed and/or misinformed.

 

Open your mind and try to grasp the idea that people can have different opinions and make different decisions. With the same information available.

 

It's the entire basis of this site.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Sinbadssailors
Clarification

[lexxfield]

16 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Part of the frustration I feel is the intransigence of those who believe a statistic on one day, demand that others agree with it, too, and then when proven wrong, refuse to acknowledge that maybe their "opponent" might have been right to begin with. By way of example:

 

Example 1: For months I have been of the opinion that wearing a mask outdoors is unnecessary, yet there are those who have consistently said that if there's some chance at all, no matter how small, everyone should wear one (and in some cases be fined or put in jail if they don't.) Yet recently the CDC updated its guidance to say that masks outside were unnecessary. (including on cruise ships, FYI) Now, do all of those who demanded others wear masks plan to take back their nasty, judgmental and condescending comments and apologize to those who, as it turns out, were right all along?

 

Example 2: I have also been told that vaccines were effective to 95%, so many have ignored that very high rate and instead focused on the remaining 5%, as though all restrictions must stay in place for that tiny amount. But now we see statistics showing the efficacy of the vaccines is over 99%. So will the "naysayers" FINALLY realize it's safe for society to go back to normal?

 

I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm going back to normal, because the SCIENCE supports it.

If others want to remain perpetually in lock down, then THEY are the science deniers, not me.

I am sadly quite skeptical that people who are intrenched in the lock down mentality will change their minds, because they're as dug in as the anti-vax crowd.

 

Of all the posters on Cruisecritic, you are perhaps the most logical and persuasive. Unfortunately, I believe you are correct about those who are stuck in the lockdown mentality.  I foresee that present-day restrictions will be with us for years to come.  Once SARS-CoV-2 is no longer a threat, influenza will be the new rallying cry.  Masks mandates will continue, despite the plethora of older studies showing the ineffectiveness of surgical-type masks in preventing the spread of influenza.  Masks have become so politicized that no one acknowledges studies that call into question effectiveness of wearing cloth or surgical-type masks as it pertains to SARS-CoV-2.   So much political capital has been invested, that no one will be willing to admit being wrong on that issue despite the "science."

[KennyFla]

11 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The vaccine does not impact DNA. 
 

“In addition, the mRNA never actually enters the nucleus of your cells, where your DNA resides. Because the two don’t share the same space, the mRNA doesn’t interact with your DNA and therefore can’t alter it. Your cells break down and get rid of the mRNA quickly.”

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/vaccine-myths-facts-vs-fiction

 

If that's true then how do you stay immune?

[Navis]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously? If that stat is true, I'm over the moon to read this. If this is true data, wondering why booster shots are already in development. Is this 99.992% efficiency for the original strain of Covid and does not include the variants?

 

Please excuse all my questions. I'm an exuberant right now with this news.

So, I just checked the most recent data on the CDC’s website (from the beginning of the month). The actual breakthrough cases observed have been 9,245 out of more than 95 million vaccinations. That is a breakthrough rate of 0.009% (so my data was off by 0.001%). And yes, the booster is for concerns about variants primarily ... especially the new Indian strain which appears to be many times more contagious. They also state that these numbers represent a possible undercount given the asymptomatic cases. It’s unclear at this point if vaccine or prior infection makes one more likely to develop asymptomatic infection in the future or prevents it entirely. Same for one’s ability to spread it (although antidotal evidence from post-vaccination spread in communities suggests the vaccines do prevent (at least significantly) asymptomatic spread).

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, KennyFla said:

If that's true then how do you stay immune?

Take a look at the article. It actually explains the process. There are obviously lots of other sources out there, but this one is more plain English for us non-doctors.  
 

“The technology behind the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is mRNA. Think of mRNA as an instruction manual for your body on how to make a specific protein — in this case, a small part of the “spike” protein that appears on the virus’ surface. This protein CANNOT cause infection, but it does teach your body to respond to the COVID-19 coronavirus, should you encounter it.”

 

[DCGuy64]

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24986-cdc-lightens-up-on-cruise-mask-and-shore-ex-rules.html

 

This is great news. I am a bit sad because I've read many a traveler speak of canceling cruises due to the belief that he/she will have to wear a mask all the time and be restricted to cruise line-only sponsored excursions. This news may come too late for those who have already canceled their planned cruises, but it's great news for those who are still going!

Edited May 13, 2021 by DCGuy64

[KennyFla]

34 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Take a look at the article. It actually explains the process. There are obviously lots of other sources out there, but this one is more plain English for us non-doctors.  
 

“The technology behind the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is mRNA. Think of mRNA as an instruction manual for your body on how to make a specific protein — in this case, a small part of the “spike” protein that appears on the virus’ surface. This protein CANNOT cause infection, but it does teach your body to respond to the COVID-19 coronavirus, should you encounter it.”

 

I'm way above my pay grade here, but the only way your body can "learn" anything is to code it into your DNA.  Anyway, this was an aside, back to arguing.

[graphicguy]

6 hours ago, KateQ22003 said:

Thank you so much. As they say, there are good days and bad days. But  you know what would help??? A CRUISE!!! I swear I spend half my days researching cruises and the other half reminiscing about great cruises I have done. I think it's a sickness 🙂

Not a bad way to spend some time.  And yes, it is a sickness.  I just retired.  So, I'm following in your footsteps in researching cruises, looking at old cruise photos, looking for flights, hotels, excursions, etc.

 

😉

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, lexxfield said:

Of all the posters on Cruisecritic, you are perhaps the most logical and persuasive. Unfortunately, I believe you are correct about those who are stuck in the lockdown mentality.  I foresee that present-day restrictions will be with us for years to come.  Once SARS-CoV-2 is no longer a threat, influenza will be the new rallying cry.  Masks mandates will continue, despite the plethora of older studies showing the ineffectiveness of surgical-type masks in preventing the spread of influenza.  Masks have become so politicized that no one acknowledges studies that call into question effectiveness of wearing cloth or surgical-type masks as it pertains to SARS-CoV-2.   So much political capital has been invested, that no one will be willing to admit being wrong on that issue despite the "science."

Thank you, that's a kind thing to say. I don't usually feel anyone is persuaded by what I say. I am still a little nervous about what I see as our society's rapid willingness to tolerate mask mandates and the like without question. I just know a little too much world history to believe this pandemic won't be somehow exploited by a future government because they've seen how quickly people will bow down and do as they're told, then rat out their neighbors who refuse to comply. I hope I'm wrong.

[BermudaBound2014]

4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I firmly believe MANY anti-vaxxers have no clue. Did I say all? I didn't think my comment was inclusive. If I did, I was out of line and I apologize. Evidently you are the exception to the rule.

 

Having said that, honestly, if anyone does understand the basics and how these mRNA vaccines actually work in the body, why in the world is there hesitancy? That simply baffles me. These mRNA vaccines have been proven, so far, to be the safest vaccines on the planet. (I have no comments about the J&J vaccine as I have not done any research or reading on it.)

 

Yes, you are correct, I do not read those technical reports and abstracts......way above my pay grade to try to understand them. I do however, jump to the conclusion of such reports and get the information I need from that. With every report and abstract I have looked at, the mRNA vaccines look clean as a whistle to me. But.....I am not an expert but listen to information from experts.

 

Thank you for apologizing. In turn, I apologize if my response was harsh. There are many variables that go into an 'anti vaxxers' decision making. So many on this forum seem to completely dismiss legitimate concerns or over simplify this very complex decision by stating we just don't  understand the mRNA vaccine (or we would certainly take it as you suggested), or we don't care about others, or vaccination is the only way to get back to normal. None of this is true.

 

I will see if I can simplify the rational from both sides without any politics. This simplification will be difficult and leave many unanswered questions, but I'll give it a go because you asked.

 

Those accepting the injection:

- they are personally protected 

- the jab protects the vulnerable in society

- injection stops variants

- mRNA is safe

- Get back to "normal" life

- Trust the main stream media message

 

Those not accepting the injection

- protection isn't needed (for the majority who are not vulnerable)

- The vaccine itself protects the vulnerable in society

- Natural immunity may be better in the long run to protect against variants

- Long term effects of mRNA are unknown

- Already back to "normal" life (or as normal of life as will be allowed).

- Distrust main stream media censorship

 

I believe there is mis-information on both sides of the injection debate. Medical Professionals who do not believe in mass vaccination for covid are being heavily censored. This is fact. Ask yourself why?  I don't believe everything groups like American Frontline Doctors are suggesting (and a few are certainly a bit quacky); but to dismiss them entirely because they have been labeled a right wing political group by the mainstream media is foolish. IMO, some of what they suggest makes sense in a world that hasn't made sense in over a year.   Dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist. Call me uninformed. Believe I am selfish. I'm confident in standing alone if necessary.

 

BTW: I do fully support 100% vaccinated cruising to begin. We have to start somewhere and the industry we all love dearly can not afford to get this wrong. I do believe that injections stop the spread of covid in the short term. Admittedly, I am a bit jealous of those of you planning cruising in the immediate future but I support you completely and do sincerely with you happy sailing.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChutChut]

4 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Part of the frustration I feel is the intransigence of those who believe a statistic on one day, demand that others agree with it, too, and then when proven wrong, refuse to acknowledge that maybe their "opponent" might have been right to begin with. By way of example:

 

Example 1: For months I have been of the opinion that wearing a mask outdoors is unnecessary, yet there are those who have consistently said that if there's some chance at all, no matter how small, everyone should wear one (and in some cases be fined or put in jail if they don't.) Yet recently the CDC updated its guidance to say that masks outside were unnecessary. (including on cruise ships, FYI) Now, do all of those who demanded others wear masks plan to take back their nasty, judgmental and condescending comments and apologize to those who, as it turns out, were right all along?

 

Example 2: I have also been told that vaccines were effective to 95%, so many have ignored that very high rate and instead focused on the remaining 5%, as though all restrictions must stay in place for that tiny amount. But now we see statistics showing the efficacy of the vaccines is over 99%. So will the "naysayers" FINALLY realize it's safe for society to go back to normal?

 

I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm going back to normal, because the SCIENCE supports it.

If others want to remain perpetually in lock down, then THEY are the science deniers, not me.

I am sadly quite skeptical that people who are intrenched in the lock down mentality will change their minds, because they're as dug in as the anti-vax crowd.

 

EVERYONE - READ THIS. My thoughts exactly.

[PTC DAWG]

7 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Part of the frustration I feel is the intransigence of those who believe a statistic on one day, demand that others agree with it, too, and then when proven wrong, refuse to acknowledge that maybe their "opponent" might have been right to begin with. By way of example:

 

Example 1: For months I have been of the opinion that wearing a mask outdoors is unnecessary, yet there are those who have consistently said that if there's some chance at all, no matter how small, everyone should wear one (and in some cases be fined or put in jail if they don't.) Yet recently the CDC updated its guidance to say that masks outside were unnecessary. (including on cruise ships, FYI) Now, do all of those who demanded others wear masks plan to take back their nasty, judgmental and condescending comments and apologize to those who, as it turns out, were right all along?

 

Example 2: I have also been told that vaccines were effective to 95%, so many have ignored that very high rate and instead focused on the remaining 5%, as though all restrictions must stay in place for that tiny amount. But now we see statistics showing the efficacy of the vaccines is over 99%. So will the "naysayers" FINALLY realize it's safe for society to go back to normal?

 

I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm going back to normal, because the SCIENCE supports it.

If others want to remain perpetually in lock down, then THEY are the science deniers, not me.

I am sadly quite skeptical that people who are intrenched in the lock down mentality will change their minds, because they're as dug in as the anti-vax crowd.

 

Well said...

[coffeebean]

7 hours ago, KennyFla said:

From the way I understand how your body builds immunity, your cells take a fragment of the virus, and do incorporate it into your DNA.  That is why when the virus enters your body, your cells can recognize it right away, go to that portion of your DNA, and build the correct antibodies.

 

This is a totally normal process.  And it seems to provide an answer why everyone's DNA is unique.  So, yes your DNA changes.

 

The mRNA vaccines cut out the middleman, take the genetic code supplied and prepare for the virus.  This was always done in the past with "dead" virus.

 

Anyway, that's how I understand it.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

I never knew natural infection to what ever virus invades the body, does change a bit of the DNA of that person. I read about it HERE.

 

The mRNA vaccines do not work this way, however, The body's DNA is not altered in any way by the vaccine or how the body recognizes the invasion of Covid virus. Read what the CDC has to say about this HERE.

 

 

[coffeebean]

7 hours ago, KennyFla said:

If that's true then how do you stay immune?

Great simple explanation with graphic....

How mRNA Covid vaccines work

 

Our immune systems also have memory cells that will jump into action if the body is exposed to the Covid virus. Those soldiers are the T Cells and the B Cells of our immune system. Great stuff.

How our immune system works - B Cells and T Cells explained

[coffeebean]

7 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I'm way above my pay grade here, but the only way your body can "learn" anything is to code it into your DNA.  Anyway, this was an aside, back to arguing.

Not arguing at all, just friendly discussion and meeting of the minds.

 

That is not the explanation from the CDC website which I posted a couple of posts ago. DNA is not involved during the process of the mRNA vaccines.

Edited May 13, 2021 by coffeebean

[coffeebean]

6 hours ago, graphicguy said:

Not a bad way to spend some time.  And yes, it is a sickness.  I just retired.  So, I'm following in your footsteps in researching cruises, looking at old cruise photos, looking for flights, hotels, excursions, etc.

 

😉

Congratulations on your retirement. There is lots of work to do......researching cruises. Have fun.

[Beach Life 1]

52 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Yes, they got past it otherwise we would not have these very safe mRNA vaccines that have proven their effectiveness and are stomping on this pandemic in our country.

 

You may not be a "potato" but there is data that has been reported EVERYWHERE that 40% of Republicans will never get the vaccine. This is not new, it has been reported for quite some time now. There is a reason for this and his name rhymes with dump.

Just stop already with the politics!  It was Harris that said she would never get the vaccine.   I would say 90% of my friends are Republicans,  and they have all received  the Vaccine.  People will do, what people will do, because they do what they feel is right for them.  Trump has nothing do to with people not wanting the vaccine.  Stop already!!   Please

[Stallion]

10 minutes ago, jezabel80 said:

Just stop already with the politics!  It was Harris that said she would never get the vaccine.   I would say 90% of my friends are Republicans,  and they have all received  the Vaccine.  People will do, what people will do, because they do what they feel is right for them.  Trump has nothing do to with people not wanting the vaccine.  Stop already!!   Please

You'd have to be in politics to make that dog hunt. Seriously, the numbers are absolutely clear who isn't getting the vaccines. But I understand why that makes you upset because about 60% of VOTING age Americans have already gotten a dose

Edited May 13, 2021 by Stallion