Cruising Without a Vaccination

[CaptainWoody]

2 minutes ago, forgotmyCCname said:

Nope! There is no national database. We advised our patients to photograph their cards, both sides, and then laminate. Maybe they do it in your state, but not in Maryland or PA.

I thought that the consensus was to NOT laminate due to potential degradation of inks and inability to add a future booster?

[KennyFla]

From a new study by Cleveland Clinic, one of the most respected hospital chains in the country:

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

 

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.

 

If the trend continues that those who have recovered do not get vaccinated, they will represent a good percent of the population.  Should they be excluded from things?

Edited June 9, 2021 by KennyFla

[RocketMan275]

7 hours ago, CaptainWoody said:

I thought that the consensus was to NOT laminate due to potential degradation of inks and inability to add a future booster?

You laminate a copy and preserve the original.

[coffeebean]

11 hours ago, forgotmyCCname said:

Nope! There is no national database. We advised our patients to photograph their cards, both sides, and then laminate. Maybe they do it in your state, but not in Maryland or PA and definitely not national. The card WILL show the lot #, date, etc.

 

The lack of a vehicle to confirm the validity of a card is one of the reasons they are so easy to fake.

 

And even if certain areas had such a data base a cruise line would not be allowed to access it. 

 

If the cruise lines are dealing with a Covid outbreak on board, shouldn't they be able to obtain immunization records from a State Health Department with consent from the person that is being investigated? (That would be if there were a question about a possible forged CDC card.) If anyone refuses to give consent to the cruise lines to obtain those immunization records, that would most certainly be considered  extremely suspicious as to whether the provided proof of vaccine was actually valid.

[sugcarol]

54 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

If the cruise lines are dealing with a Covid outbreak on board, shouldn't they be able to obtain immunization records from a State Health Department with consent from the person that is being investigated? (That would be if there were a question about a possible forged CDC card.) If anyone refuses to give consent to the cruise lines to obtain those immunization records, that would most certainly be considered  extremely suspicious as to whether the provided proof of vaccine was actually valid.

I have the CDC card. I have the original Medicare sheets showing they paid the administration fees for each jab. It would be very difficult to fake the Medicare payment sheets as those are legal documents that cant be faked. I have the state of Texas immunization record. All cross reference to each other, so there is no doubt whatsoever that i am indeed vaccinated.

Edited June 9, 2021 by sugcarol

[ericfromri]

14 hours ago, forgotmyCCname said:

Nope! There is no national database. We advised our patients to photograph their cards, both sides, and then laminate. Maybe they do it in your state, but not in Maryland or PA and definitely not national. The card WILL show the lot #, date, etc.

 

The lack of a vehicle to confirm the validity of a card is one of the reasons they are so easy to fake.

 

And even if certain areas had such a data base a cruise line would not be allowed to access it. 

 

Sure.  Lol

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, coffeebean said:

If the cruise lines are dealing with a Covid outbreak on board, shouldn't they be able to obtain immunization records from a State Health Department with consent from the person that is being investigated? (That would be if there were a question about a possible forged CDC card.) If anyone refuses to give consent to the cruise lines to obtain those immunization records, that would most certainly be considered  extremely suspicious as to whether the provided proof of vaccine was actually valid.

Nothing like locking the barn after the horse is stolen.  The idea is to prevent, not contain, an outbreak.

Those who are adamant about avoiding the vaccine and about disclosing their vaccination status would not cooperate with and consent to these requests.

[hallux]

8 hours ago, sugcarol said:

I have the CDC card. I have the original Medicare sheets showing they paid the administration fees for each jab. It would be very difficult to fake the Medicare payment sheets as those are legal documents that cant be faked

One could say the same about the CDC card and yet people are faking them left and right...

[sugcarol]

4 minutes ago, hallux said:

One could say the same about the CDC card and yet people are faking them left and right...

I doubt anyone would try to fake all 3.  Info is cross referenced to the original CDC card. Doesnt matter to me, I'm fully vaccinated and if someone is stupid enough to try it and gets Covid, they need to walk the plank, I'll wave at the circling sharks.

[sept10dsm]

On 5/13/2021 at 7:55 PM, coffeebean said:

I researched what you mentioned to me. Many hopes for those who have recovered from Covid......

Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19

Yes, I found this link last week.   But look at the date  January and no where on the news  and that's the sad thing.  The recovered are basically ignored even though they are important for herd immunity = and blooddonations 

[sept10dsm]

15 hours ago, KennyFla said:

From a new study by Cleveland Clinic, one of the most respected hospital chains in the country:

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

 

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.

 

If the trend continues that those who have recovered do not get vaccinated, they will represent a good percent of the population.  Should they be excluded from things?

I feel the recovered do now represent a good percent of the population and many studies including the NIH themselves state the recovered have strong immunity.  The recovered should be treated inclusively and not excluded.  

[julig22]

2 hours ago, sept10dsm said:

I feel the recovered do now represent a good percent of the population and many studies including the NIH themselves state the recovered have strong immunity.  The recovered should be treated inclusively and not excluded.  

So how do you explain Brazil and India?  They thought they had natural herd immunity.  Maybe they did for the original strain but not for the mutated strains which seem to be a bigger issue now.

So a big no from me on including "recovered" as being safe when traveling.

[coffeebean]

15 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nothing like locking the barn after the horse is stolen.  The idea is to prevent, not contain, an outbreak.

Those who are adamant about avoiding the vaccine and about disclosing their vaccination status would not cooperate with and consent to these requests.

Exactly. That is my whole point.......gotcha!!!

[KennyFla]

15 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nothing like locking the barn after the horse is stolen.  The idea is to prevent, not contain, an outbreak.

Those who are adamant about avoiding the vaccine and about disclosing their vaccination status would not cooperate with and consent to these requests.

If people are going to volunteer their vaccine status, they will probably do it at the time of booking.  If not, they will be treated as unvaccinated, with more frequent testing, different restrictions(?), and will be tested if found to come in to contact with someone that tests positive.

[KennyFla]

6 hours ago, julig22 said:

So how do you explain Brazil and India?  They thought they had natural herd immunity.  Maybe they did for the original strain but not for the mutated strains which seem to be a bigger issue now.

So a big no from me on including "recovered" as being safe when traveling.

More and more research is showing that recovered immunity is very comparable to vaccine immunity:

 

According to the researchers, 11.3% of the patients who tested positive for antibodies also had a positive diagnostic test for the coronavirus within 30 days, 2.7% had a positive diagnostic test result within days 31 to 60, 1.1% had a positive result within days 61 to 90, and 0.3% had a positive result at more than 90 days.

In comparison, among the 2.9 million patients who had tested negative for coronavirus antibodies at the outset, 3.9% had a positive diagnostic test for the coronavirus within 30 days. According to the researchers, "That proportion remained relatively consistent at approximately 3.0% over all subsequent periods of observation, including after 90 days."

 

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/03/02/reinfection

 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by KennyFla

[goldmom]

While I would prefer a 100% vaccinated cruise I realize that there are many issues here, especially now that a study is showing that people who have had Covid have immunity.

 

My Thoughts are:

Completely vaccinated-show proof of vaccination at time of booking and/or embarkation.

 

Had Covid- Submit a anti-body or antigen test one week prior to sailing and/or embarkation.

 

Not vaccinated- Show a negative Covid test at Embarkation (time frame to be determined) and then take a Covid test everyday of the cruise at the passengers expense.

 

If this was the protocol for cruises, I would feel comfortable sailing.

 

[ziggyuk]

Maybe they should ask you if you are vaccinated at the point of booking and if you answer yes, you then get a $5,000pp discount on the ticket price and electronically supply supporting evidence with a signed statement of authenticity.

Sure it can be falsified but if you have supplied falsified document after signing/accepting a warning that anyone submitting false documents will have their tickets cancelled without refund and documents sent to the authorities.... Some might think twice.

 

The $5,000 like all promos will have already been added to the ticket price.

[BermudaBound2014]

3 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

Maybe they should ask you if you are vaccinated at the point of booking and if you answer yes, you then get a $5,000pp discount on the ticket price and electronically supply supporting evidence with a signed statement of authenticity.

Sure it can be falsified but if you have supplied falsified document after signing/accepting a warning that anyone submitting false documents will have their tickets cancelled without refund and documents sent to the authorities.... Some might think twice.

 

The $5,000 like all promos will have already been added to the ticket price.

 

I do not suspect this idea would hold up in US court. 

 

On another note, did everyone watch the video of the Carnival president speaking about starting in Galveston? They are starting their cruises with 95% vaccinated but he made it perfectly clear this is a stepping stone to get us started. I was left with the impression that 95% vaccination won't last long.

 

For those that aren't vaccinated, my advice is to just sit tight and wait. Cruise lines will eventually open to all. I don't suspect it will take a great deal of time before those unvaccinated are welcomed aboard. Cruise lines can't afford to alienate 20%-40% of their clientele. No business can. 

 

For those that want 100% vaccination, I recommend that the sooner you sail, the more likely you will be sailing with these stipulations in place. I don't think we can rule out a niche market evolving for 100% vaccinated guests, but that is pure speculation.

[KennyFla]

6 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I do not suspect this idea would hold up in US court. 

 

On another note, did everyone watch the video of the Carnival president speaking about starting in Galveston? They are starting their cruises with 95% vaccinated but he made it perfectly clear this is a stepping stone to get us started. I was left with the impression that 95% vaccination won't last long.

 

For those that aren't vaccinated, my advice is to just sit tight and wait. Cruise lines will eventually open to all. I don't suspect it will take a great deal of time before those unvaccinated are welcomed aboard. Cruise lines can't afford to alienate 20%-40% of their clientele. No business can. 

 

For those that want 100% vaccination, I recommend that the sooner you sail, the more likely you will be sailing with these stipulations in place. I don't think we can rule out a niche market evolving for 100% vaccinated guests, but that is pure speculation.

I agree to start they should be over-cautious.  We don't want to go through this all over again.

I wish I had a photo of the first time my wife had a flight during the virus.  She looked like she was going into surgery.

So start with an abundance of caution and relax restrictions as you feel comfortable.

Edited June 10, 2021 by KennyFla

[JamieLogical]

Has there been any significant research on natural immunity vs. the variants? I have heard speculation and anecdotes that the Delta variant that was spreading so rapidly in India in April/May was infecting a lot of people who had already had COVID in a previous wave there. But the Delta variant is spreading in the UK now and does not seem to be infecting people who are fully vaccinated (have heard it is infecting some people who have only received one dose). But, again, this is just all stuff I have heard/read in the media... not sure if there have been any scientific studies yet.

Edited June 10, 2021 by JamieLogical

[BermudaBound2014]

Just now, KennyFla said:

I agree to start they should be over-cautious.  We don't want to go through this all over again.

 

I'm 100% in favor of that for sure. Start super safe. Gradually release as covid number continue to decline. Any glitch in the restart could set us back terribly.

[JamieLogical]

2 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I'm 100% in favor of that for sure. Start super safe. Gradually release as covid number continue to decline. Any glitch in the restart could set us back terribly.

 

That's the main issue here. It only takes one negative headline for and outbreak or even just a couple of positive test results to set everything back. The CDC could impose stronger restrictions again and the negative publicity could kill cruising. Not to mention the fact that something like that would ruin a cruise for the thousands of people on board.

[ziggyuk]

6 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

But the Delta variant is spreading in the UK now and does not seem to be infecting people who are fully vaccinated (have heard it is infecting some people who have only received one dose). But, again, this is just all stuff I have heard/read in the media... not sure if there have been any scientific studies yet.

 

Of those hospitalised 12 have actually had two shots of vaccine, what we are seeing is much less hospitalisation and significantly less deaths due to the vaccine.

The Delta variant is thought to be 60% more transmissible than the Alpha variant.

[saltsandknit]

I’m not 100% on post covid immunity. I work with a woman on my team who has had covid twice. She had it early April 2020 and again in January. She is not the only one here where I work that have had it twice. She got vaccinated because she doesn’t want to get sick again

[BermudaBound2014]

6 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

Has there been any significant research on natural immunity vs. the variants? I have heard speculation and anecdotes that the Delta variant that was spreading so rapidly in India in April/May was infecting a lot of people who had already had COVID in a previous wave there. But the Delta variant is spreading in the UK now and does not seem to be infecting people who are fully vaccinated (have heard it is infecting some people who have only received one dose). But, again, this is just all stuff I have heard/read in the media... not sure if there have been any scientific studies yet.

 

Information about covid is so fluid it's hard to tell, but over the course of history, a virus has one job: to live. In order to accomplish this task, two things happen. It becomes more contagious and less deadly. In other words, it needs to infect as many people as possible but benefits most when it does not kill it's host. I suspect that is what is happening with variants. Time will tell. 

 

Unfortunately, what has happened in America is a tremendous lack of confidence in the CDC. Some of it unfairly, but some of it justly (imo). Unfortunately, many people read an article and take it for fact and do not allow for changing information.  Hence many people on this forum repeatedly stating vaccines supplied better immunity. Truth is, we just don't know yet. I suspect, when it's all sorted, natural immunity will prove better than vaccines especially when dealing with variants, but I'm basing that on the history of virus behavior. I may be wrong, but what I do know is that we don't know yet. Even the scientists who are making the claim that the vaccine is more efficient do so with the disclaimer that this is still under study. Unfortunately, it gets presented by regular 'folk' in forums like this as fact. 

 

Here's another example of information evolving from the CDC. It has been stated over and over how the vaccines are perfectly safe. To the best of our knowledge, they are overall very safe. BUT information is evolving. The CDC published information countering the data from Israel warning of a cardiac reaction to mRNA vaccines mid may. Stating there was no evidence of connection between mRNA and myrocarditis (heart problems after receiving the vaccine). They published this mid may.  Just two weeks later, the CDC backtracked, acknowledging there is likely a connection between the mRNA vaccine and myrocarditis. This is relevant for anyone under 30 considering the vaccine.

 

"The advisers' statement, posted June 1 on the CDC website, strikes a different note from their statement about two weeks earlier, which said that the rates of myocarditis -- inflammation of the heart muscle -- were not higher among vaccinated people than among unvaccinated people."

A link between Covid-19 vaccination and a cardiac illness may be getting clearer | News | wfsb.com

 

I mention this 'flip flop' by the CDC not because I think the vaccine is "bad" or that I think myrocarditis is deadly.  Quite the contrary.  But I do not believe we know the long term effects (and effectiveness) of the vaccine.

 

The information is fluid.