New CDC guidelines for simulated cruises

[SUSIEK]

36 minutes ago, Keksie said:

$$$ are not being lost in the state at this time.  There are no ships sailing from any other state.  Not from Alabama, not from Louisiana, not from Texas, not from New Jersey, and not from any cities on the West Coast.  Even if the order didn't exist the CDC is not letting any ships sail from the US fully vaccinated or not at this time.  Florida is not the only state that has in some fashion prohibited vaccine passports.  

I agree other states are having their own issues, but Florida is home to many cruise line headquarters.  I know many who have lost their jobs with good pay and benefits.  They are currently collecting unemployment waiting for the go ahead to head back to their original jobs.  Aside from the local businesses that have been affected by the tourist dollars the cruise business brings yearly.  Hotels, restaurants, etc., Florida is a tourist destination and we rely heavily on those $$$.  In my opinion our Governor should keep his hand out of private business.  Let them make their own decisions they feel best for their private company and their patrons.  I'm not saying he hasn't done some good for our state.... just not happy with what he has done this time. 

Cruise Lines with Headquarters Based in Miami

• Carnival Cruise Lines.
• Norwegian Cruise Lines.
• Royal Caribbean International.
• Azamara Cruise Lines.
• Celebrity Cruises.
• Crystal Cruises.
• Costa Cruises.
• Oceania Cruises.

[ricka47]

31 minutes ago, SUSIEK said:

I agree other states are having their own issues, but Florida is home to many cruise line headquarters.  I know many who have lost their jobs with good pay and benefits.  They are currently collecting unemployment waiting for the go ahead to head back to their original jobs.  Aside from the local businesses that have been affected by the tourist dollars the cruise business brings yearly.  Hotels, restaurants, etc., Florida is a tourist destination and we rely heavily on those $$$.  In my opinion our Governor should keep his hand out of private business.  Let them make their own decisions they feel best for their private company and their patrons.  I'm not saying he hasn't done some good for our state.... just not happy with what he has done this time. 

Cruise Lines with Headquarters Based in Miami

• Carnival Cruise Lines.
• Norwegian Cruise Lines.
• Royal Caribbean International.
• Azamara Cruise Lines.
• Celebrity Cruises.
• Crystal Cruises.
• Costa Cruises.
• Oceania Cruises.

 

I like what Desantis has done during the pandemic. But, I don't understand his reasoning here. On one hand he is fighting the CDC but, on the other, he is also fighting the cruise lines by telling them that they can't require vaccinations before cruising. I don't see the logic here.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ricka47

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, ricka47 said:

 

I like what Desantis has done during the pandemic. But, I don't understand his reasoning here. On one hand he is fighting the CDC but, on the other, he is also fighting the cruise lines by telling them that they can't require vaccinations before cruising. I don't see the logic here.

I agree, the reasoning does seem odd. As I opined last week, there is a logic to it.

The governor's explanation seems to be that he doesn't want there to be different classes of people, those who are vaccinated and those who are not, because when it comes to ordinary, everyday life, he doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated. That's intrusive. OTOH, he thinks the CDC's rules are draconian, not supported by current science or current cruise statistics (and he's right, by the way), and are directly harming the state of Florida.

BTW I don't know if you are convinced by what I just wrote, I'm just telling you there IS a logic at work.

You don't have to buy it.

[not-enough-cruising]

11 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I agree, the reasoning does seem odd. As I opined last week, there is a logic to it.

The governor's explanation seems to be that he doesn't want there to be different classes of people, those who are vaccinated and those who are not, because when it comes to ordinary, everyday life, he doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated. That's intrusive. OTOH, he thinks the CDC's rules are draconian, not supported by current science or current cruise statistics (and he's right, by the way), and are directly harming the state of Florida.

BTW I don't know if you are convinced by what I just wrote, I'm just telling you there IS a logic at work.

You don't have to buy it.

I don’t know if I’d call it logic,  it that’s not important. 
 

There have always been multiple classes of people. 
 

There are ways to require vaccines for things like cruises, and still not deny basic services to anyone. 
 

A baby and the bath water come to mind. 

[SUSIEK]

4 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I agree, the reasoning does seem odd. As I opined last week, there is a logic to it.

The governor's explanation seems to be that he doesn't want there to be different classes of people, those who are vaccinated and those who are not, because when it comes to ordinary, everyday life, he doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated. That's intrusive. OTOH, he thinks the CDC's rules are draconian, not supported by current science or current cruise statistics (and he's right, by the way), and are directly harming the state of Florida.

BTW I don't know if you are convinced by what I just wrote, I'm just telling you there IS a logic at work.

You don't have to buy it.

 "He doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated"

Is cruising a basic service?  It's not like going into the grocery store to buy food for your family.  I'm sure there will be cruise lines that will not want to require vaccinations.  But, why penalize those that may want to? Intrusive???   They're private companies.  It's a hard one... I get it.  I just want to sail LOL!!!!

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, not-enough-cruising said:

There are ways to require vaccines for things like cruises, and still not deny basic services to anyone. 

Yes, agreed. Have you read the governor's order? It's not terribly long. But it does NOT preclude the use of testing protocols with respect to Covid-19. I still think there's an out for the cruise lines in there.

Just my opinion, of course, I'm no legal expert.

[ricka47]

21 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I agree, the reasoning does seem odd. As I opined last week, there is a logic to it.

The governor's explanation seems to be that he doesn't want there to be different classes of people, those who are vaccinated and those who are not, because when it comes to ordinary, everyday life, he doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated. That's intrusive. OTOH, he thinks the CDC's rules are draconian, not supported by current science or current cruise statistics (and he's right, by the way), and are directly harming the state of Florida.

BTW I don't know if you are convinced by what I just wrote, I'm just telling you there IS a logic at work.

You don't have to buy it.

There is indeed logic there. But, I'm not buying that it makes sense. I agree with the governor's thinking about the CDC. But, if a corporation wants to require its customers to meet certain safety and health standards, they should be free to do that. Disney has height restrictions on certain rides.

 

Cruising is optional and those who don't wish to be vaccinated have other vacation options. Certainly, there could be a "slippery slope" here if a company takes it a step further and adds discriminatory requirements. We'll have to see how this plays out. I just want to get back "out there!"

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by ricka47

[not-enough-cruising]

4 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Yes, agreed. Have you read the governor's order? It's not terribly long. But it does NOT preclude the use of testing protocols with respect to Covid-19. I still think there's an out for the cruise lines in there.

Just my opinion, of course, I'm no legal expert.

But testing protocols are not vaccines. 
 

Either way, I’m not a legal expert either. In my uneducated reading, I am still in the camp of “DeSantis had over reached  his authority with respect to cruiseline mandates” 

[DCGuy64]

7 minutes ago, SUSIEK said:

 "He doesn't think it's fair to deny basic services to people who can't prove they're vaccinated"

Is cruising a basic service?  It's not like going into the grocery store to buy food for your family.  I'm sure there will be cruise lines that will not want to require vaccinations.  But, why penalize those that may want to? Intrusive???   They're private companies.  It's a hard one... I get it.  I just want to sail LOL!!!!

Is cruising a basic service? I would argue "no," but if I've learned one thing being married to an attorney, it's that every legal expert can have differing opinions. I personally would make a distinction between going to the grocery store, gas station, pharmacy, etc. and getting on an airplane or cruise ship. But that's just me, I don't make the rules nor do I hand down legal opinions.

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, not-enough-cruising said:

But testing protocols are not vaccines. 

No, but what's the goal? Is it vaccines for the sake of them, or ensuring your passengers aren't sick and can't reasonably transmit the virus to others? It seems to me that testing protocols (like MSC has been doing successfully for months in Europe with no vaccine requirement) could achieve the same goal.

(I'm fully vaccinated so it makes no difference to me).

[not-enough-cruising]

46 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

No, but what's the goal? Is it vaccines for the sake of them, or ensuring your passengers aren't sick and can't reasonably transmit the virus to others? It seems to me that testing protocols (like MSC has been doing successfully for months in Europe with no vaccine requirement) could achieve the same goal.

(I'm fully vaccinated so it makes no difference to me).

I think the ultimate goal is to ensure that patrons have the lowest possible chance of returning from their vacation having acquired a Covid infection.

 

Passengers will be (hopefully) debarking on beautiful islands and mingle with the local populace (whose vaccine status is unknown). There is no denying that a fully vaccinated ship has greater chance of achieving the end goal than does a ship full of passengers with unknown vaccine status, but negatively tested at embarkation.

 

(I'm fully vaccinated as well so it makes no difference to me either).

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

lowest possible

Agreed, and just so we're clear, that number will never be 0.

[Shorewalk Holmes]

11 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Passengers will be (hopefully) debarking on beautiful islands and mingle with the local populace (whose vaccine status is unknown).

 

Let's hope so!  I'm looking forward to someday cruising from Port Canaveral on a vaccinated cruise. I had to cancel an Allure cruise from there already. 

 

Fortunately there are also many beautiful islands we can reach from Galveston. 

[not-enough-cruising]

17 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Agreed, and just so we're clear, that number will never be 0.

Agreed, but so we are also clear, the number is lower with vaccines, than without

[easyqueasy]

On 5/10/2021 at 5:37 PM, broberts said:

 

 I have yet to dine on a cruise ship where I was less than 25" from other diners. 

What’s your secret to not ever having anyone within 25” of you while dining? I’d like to know, unless it’s room service. I don’t want to eat in my room. 

[broberts]

53 minutes ago, easyqueasy said:

What’s your secret to not ever having anyone within 25” of you while dining? I’d like to know, unless it’s room service. I don’t want to eat in my room. 

 

Two feet, one inch is easily achieved.  First off,  I would be measuring the distance between noses. Dining room chairs are on average 18 inches wide at the front. So one half of that by 2 chairs is 18 inches of separation. Just need seven inch spacing between the chairs to get to 25 inches. If somone can walk behind your chair, there should easily be 25 inches between ones breathing passages and those of the person sitting behind you. Finally rectangular and square tables are generally at least 24 inches wide, unless one is leaning over a table the spacing is there.

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, easyqueasy said:

What’s your secret to not ever having anyone within 25” of you while dining? I’d like to know, unless it’s room service. I don’t want to eat in my room. 

Eeewwww! What kind of people do you travel with? You literally have other diners within 2' of you? Gross, at that distance you must have them sitting in your lap! Yuck.

[easyqueasy]

14 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Two feet, one inch is easily achieved.  First off,  I would be measuring the distance between noses. Dining room chairs are on average 18 inches wide at the front. So one half of that by 2 chairs is 18 inches of separation. Just need seven inch spacing between the chairs to get to 25 inches. If somone can walk behind your chair, there should easily be 25 inches between ones breathing passages and those of the person sitting behind you. Finally rectangular and square tables are generally at least 24 inches wide, unless one is leaning over a table the spacing is there.

 

2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Eeewwww! What kind of people do you travel with? You literally have other diners within 2' of you? Gross, at that distance you must have them sitting in your lap! Yuck.

I must be the unlucky one. When traveling with family and sitting at the round table the person is right behind us from another reservation so much that we barely have room to scoot out a little from the table. And when seating at table for two, there’s always someone next to us, whether behind us or right next to us separated by a railing. We dine early so that might be the problem. 

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, easyqueasy said:

 And when seating at table for two, there’s always someone next to us, whether behind us or right next to us separated by a railing. We dine early so that might be the problem. 

Solution: next cruise cough loudly and frequently and then mutter under your breath "damn Covid," you'll get the extra space you need in a heartbeat. Problem solved! 😂

My wife and I are never that close to other people, and certainly not long enough to be worried about.

But we aren't of the overly packed, cattle call buffet, either. We find quiet tables by ourselves or eat in the main dining room with table service. We always have tons of room.

[dgreeney]

I travel solo and I'm always seated very close to the next table.

[ChutChut]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:03 AM, SUSIEK said:

I agree other states are having their own issues, but Florida is home to many cruise line headquarters.  I know many who have lost their jobs with good pay and benefits.  They are currently collecting unemployment waiting for the go ahead to head back to their original jobs.  Aside from the local businesses that have been affected by the tourist dollars the cruise business brings yearly.  Hotels, restaurants, etc., Florida is a tourist destination and we rely heavily on those $$$.  In my opinion our Governor should keep his hand out of private business.  Let them make their own decisions they feel best for their private company and their patrons.  I'm not saying he hasn't done some good for our state.... just not happy with what he has done this time. 

Cruise Lines with Headquarters Based in Miami

• Carnival Cruise Lines.
• Norwegian Cruise Lines.
• Royal Caribbean International.
• Azamara Cruise Lines.
• Celebrity Cruises.
• Crystal Cruises.
• Costa Cruises.
• Oceania Cruises.

Not when private businesses invade your medical privacy. I stand with him on this. Soon, we could have private businesses demanding you get a flu vaccine to enter, or test negative for HIV, etc. 

[not-enough-cruising]

59 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

Not when private businesses invade your medical privacy. I stand with him on this. Soon, we could have private businesses demanding you get a flu vaccine to enter, or test negative for HIV, etc. 

if this was a real issue then why didn’t the state legislature include these diseases in the law? 
I can answer that for you, they didn’t include them because it’s a nonsense argument. This just proves the political basis for this “law”.

If Governor DeSantis cared about your privacy he would have banned asking for proof of any and all vaccines. 

[smokeybandit]

36 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

if this was a real issue then why didn’t the state legislature include these diseases in the law? 
I can answer that for you, they didn’t include them because it’s a nonsense argument. This just proves the political basis for this “law”.

If Governor DeSantis cared about your privacy he would have banned asking for proof of any and all vaccines. 

 

I'm not aware of any business that asks for proof of any vaccine to enter.

[not-enough-cruising]

5 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

 

I'm not aware of any business that asks for proof of any vaccine to enter.

But they could, and this rule doesn’t prohibit it. That is the crux of ChutChut’s argument.