Who in their right mind would want to cruise under these conditions??????

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

All they need to do is have a floating hospital ship

Yeah, because THAT'S practical.

2 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

With total vaccinations, things will likely change

Explain what you mean here, bearing in mind that we will never have 100% vaccinations unless we start vaccinating people against their will. (which leads to a whole host of other problems) I also haven't seen much change even WITH vaccinations. DC, where I live, is still requiring masks when walking around outside.

[JamieLogical]

9 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Yeah, because THAT'S practical.

Explain what you mean here, bearing in mind that we will never have 100% vaccinations unless we start vaccinating people against their will. (which leads to a whole host of other problems) I also haven't seen much change even WITH vaccinations. DC, where I live, is still requiring masks when walking around outside.

 

Right now, the vaccination rate is still low enough in most places and the transmission rate is still high enough in most places, that the numbers don't bear out a relaxation of mitigation measures. Not that that is stopping a lot of governments from doing so. Here in NYS, all of our capacity restrictions are being lifted on the 19th. Thankfully, we never required masks outside unless unable to socially distance.

 

I genuinely think we will see some major relaxation of mitigation measures by the promised July 4. Here in my county, we recently got over 50% of the population with at least one dose and we are FINALLY seeing the infection, hospitalization, and death rates drop accordingly. We had been hovering at 200 new infections/day for a while and Sunday it dropped to 158 and yesterday it was 108. If that indicates a trend, that will be great news.

 

Even Dr. Fauci, who most seem to consider some sort of mitigation Fascist, is saying mask mandates could be dropped soon.

 

The number I keep watching for is for daily deaths in the US to fall below 200. That's the level of death we tolerate every flu season. If we see COVID numbers drop to that level, it will be hard to make a case for why we would need to continue strict mitigation measures.

Edited May 11, 2021 by JamieLogical

[ECCruise]

7 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Yeah, because THAT'S practical.

Explain what you mean here, bearing in mind that we will never have 100% vaccinations unless we start vaccinating people against their will. (which leads to a whole host of other problems) I also haven't seen much change even WITH vaccinations. DC, where I live, is still requiring masks when walking around outside.

1) You entirely missed the point

2) NCL is requiring 100% vaccinations, did you miss that?

[AstoriaPreppy]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:54 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

If I'm calculating this correctly, that is a death rate of .0125%. Have we ever, in the history of the world, vaccinated large numbers of the population for a death rate of .0125%? 

 

And before I'm called a monster, I know first hand that covid is not a hoax as I lost BOTH in-laws to covid. I'm all for vaccinating our most vulnerable population. But I do questing vaccinating healthy individuals.

 

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am truly trying to understand. We will probably never agree on this subject, but I am willing to listen with an open mind.

This is such a good question, and a good example of how numbers alone can be misleading. It's true, younger people don't die from the coronavirus at nearly the rates older people do... but that's only part of the equation. There's two key things to remember about vaccinations:

What's key (and is challenging from an American cultural perspective) is that vaccines benefit the entire community, not just the vaccinated person. In any infectious disease model, vaccinating as many people as possible, including people who are less likely to be hospitalized or die from a disease, dramatically decreases infections amongst people who are not yet vaccinated or for whom vaccines are ineffective.

 

This is the oft-touted herd immunity. In other words, vaccines don't just help the self... they help the entire community, including those who are immunocompromised or can't be vaccinated. 

Second, vaccinating as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, also helps reign in virus mutations and variants. Variants develop when a virus spreads unchecked throughout a community; each time a virus infects someone new, it's another chance for the virus to change slightly and dramatically increase transmissibility. We've already seen this happen in the UK, South Africa and Brazil, and it's likely we're seeing the same thing in India. 

In my case, (as a person much younger than most CC members), I got vaccinated not only because I wanted to be personally protected, but because I want to make sure my friends, family, and community stays safe and healthy. The last thing I want to be is the person who unknowingly spreads covid to am immunocompromised person who can't fight off an infection, or becomes a vector for a new covid mutation. Knowing that I have a safe option to do that made the vaccine a no-brainer for me. 

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, ECCruise said:

1) You entirely missed the point

2) NCL is requiring 100% vaccinations, did you miss that?

I missed nothing. No need to be rude.

[ECCruise]

Just now, DCGuy64 said:

I missed nothing. No need to be rude.

No intention of being rude.

How can you say you didn't miss the point when obviously you can't have hospital facilities minutes away at sea, which why it makes it different from land venues.  Which you claimed there should be no difference in mandates.

[DCGuy64]

25 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Right now, the vaccination rate is still low enough in most places and the transmission rate is still high enough in most places, that the numbers don't bear out a relaxation of mitigation measures. Not that that is stopping a lot of governments from doing so. Here in NYS, all of our capacity restrictions are being lifted on the 19th. Thankfully, we never required masks outside unless unable to socially distance.

 

I genuinely think we will see some major relaxation of mitigation measures by the promised July 4. Here in my county, we recently got over 50% of the population with at least one dose and we are FINALLY seeing the infection, hospitalization, and death rates drop accordingly. We had been hovering at 200 new infections/day for a while and Sunday it dropped to 158 and yesterday it was 108. If that indicates a trend, that will be great news.

 

Even Dr. Fauci, who most seem to consider some sort of mitigation Fascist, is saying mask mandates could be dropped soon.

 

The number I keep watching for is for daily deaths in the US to fall below 200. That's the level of death we tolerate every flu season. If we see COVID numbers drop to that level, it will be hard to make a case for why we would need to continue strict mitigation measures.

Your state is doing something interesting with the Excelsior Pass. I kinda wish we'd do something similar in Virginia. We're hoping to travel to Europe again later this year and having some electronic means of verifying vaccination status would be ideal.

I posted on a different thread yesterday (or maybe it was this thread) that the mayor of Washington, DC announced a relaxing of Covid restrictions next month, but masks will still be required. How is that NOT a Covid restriction? SMH....

[DCGuy64]

31 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

No intention of being rude.

How can you say you didn't miss the point when obviously you can't have hospital facilities minutes away at sea, which why it makes it different from land venues.  Which you claimed there should be no difference in mandates.

I wrote a reply but it seems to be gone, so what I said was this:

Requiring the cruise lines to pay for a hospital ship to sail astride is pure folly, have you any idea how expensive that would be? Cruise ships already have a sick bay or a doctor's office onboard, and the mitigation protocols (such as requiring 100% of vaccinated passengers, in NCL's case) are more than adequate.

Edited May 11, 2021 by DCGuy64

[ECCruise]

2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I wrote a reply but it seems to be gone, so what I said was this:

Requiring the cruise lines to pay for a hospital ship to sail astride is pure folly, have you any idea how expensive that would be? Cruise ships already have a sick bay or a doctor's office onboard, and the mitigation protocols (such as requiring 100% of vaccinated passengers, in NCL's case) is more than adequate.

You are making exactly my point even better than I have. Almost word for word.

[DCGuy64]

Just now, ECCruise said:

You are making exactly my point even better than I have. Almost word for word.

Great, glad we agree. All's well that ends well, then. No need for cruise lines to take extraordinary measures. 😊 (FYI my original reply was much longer, and I had to take a phone call a minute ago so I finished the above post sooner than expected for fear that it, too, would somehow vanish).

[JamieLogical]

11 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Your state is doing something interesting with the Excelsior Pass. I kinda wish we'd do something similar in Virginia. We're hoping to travel to Europe again later this year and having some electronic means of verifying vaccination status would be ideal.

I posted on a different thread yesterday (or maybe it was this thread) that the mayor of Washington, DC announced a relaxing of Covid restrictions next month, but masks will still be required. How is that NOT a Covid restriction? SMH....

 

I haven't had the chance to use my Excelsior Pass for anything yet, but I did download the app right away. It was really easy to verify my vaccination. I tried to do it the day before I was two weeks out from my second shot and it wouldn't let me. But the next day I was able to breeze right through. I now have a QR code that I could theoretically use to enter any of the venues that require it. It's important to note that this is not strictly a "vaccine passport" because it also can be used to track test status. The venues that require it just require proof of vaccination OR a negative COVID test. Both will generate a QR code that you can use to access venues.

[kirtihk]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

1) You entirely missed the point

2) NCL is requiring 100% vaccinations, did you miss that?

Today is the national "Children Hunting Day":

 

"To Vaccinate Younger Teens, States and Cities Look to Schools, Camps, Even Beaches"

 

So, in a few weeks all (cruise including) restriction will be removed entirely.  Finally!!!

Edited May 11, 2021 by kirtihk

[direstealth]

Here in the UK vaccination rates are very high.  But indeed who would cruise under these conditions.  Regardless of your views on COVID precautions etc.  Having a holiday on a ship where

 

1. Most places you cannot stop. 

2. When you do stop, you cannot freely roam

3. You risk being stopped from re-boarding

4. You risk being quarantined on board or on-shore

5. You have to wear a mask everywhere on board the ship (Aprart from resaurants and cabins)

6. You have to wear a mask even if you have an exemption

7. Rules and regulations differ from country to country

 

I could go on. 

 

This is not a holiday.  At least not in my book.  I wonder how this will play out.  At the minute bookings seem to be quite strong.  But feels like that may change when the reality of cruisng in a COVID world sets in.

Edited May 11, 2021 by direstealth
Spelling and extra point

[JamieLogical]

6 minutes ago, direstealth said:

Here in the UK vaccination rates are very high.  But indeed who would cruise under these conditions.  Regardless of your views on COVID precautions etc.  Having a holiday on a ship where

 

1. Most places you cannot stop. 

2. When you do stop, you cannot freely roam

3. You risk being stopped from re-boarding

4. You risk being quarantined on board or on-shore

5. You have to wear a mask everywhere on board the ship (Aprart from resaurants and cabins)

6. You have to wear a mask even if you have an exemption

7. Rules and regulations differ from country to country

 

I could go on. 

 

This is not a holiday.  At least not in my book.  I wonder how this will play out.  At the minute bookings seem to be quite strong.  But feels like that may change when the reality of cruisng in a COVID world sets in.

 

If you want to avoid most of these restrictions, your best bet is to sail on one of NCL's cruises out of Jamaica or the DR. NCL has already announced that you won't be restricted to ship-only excursions. Frank Del Rio has made it clear that he thinks the strict CDC mandates about masking are absurd for fully vaccinated cruises, so I don't expect a very strict mask mandate on board. You don't have to worry about quarantining, because the likelihood of an outbreak on a ship with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is next to zero.

[B Midged]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

I wrote a reply but it seems to be gone, so what I said was this:

Requiring the cruise lines to pay for a hospital ship to sail astride is pure folly, have you any idea how expensive that would be? Cruise ships already have a sick bay or a doctor's office onboard, and the mitigation protocols (such as requiring 100% of vaccinated passengers, in NCL's case) are more than adequate.

If they don’t like the rules they can scram. That’s right beat it. They can cruise out of whatever country the ships are flagged in or wherever they are incorporated if they don’t like it. Many of the port cities will make more money anyway because people will spend a week there rather than just a few hours after landing. 

[PTC DAWG]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Your state is doing something interesting with the Excelsior Pass. I kinda wish we'd do something similar in Virginia. We're hoping to travel to Europe again later this year and having some electronic means of verifying vaccination status would be ideal.

I posted on a different thread yesterday (or maybe it was this thread) that the mayor of Washington, DC announced a relaxing of Covid restrictions next month, but masks will still be required. How is that NOT a Covid restriction? SMH....

Leadership is important...sounds like DC needs some.  Masks outside are idiotic.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by PTC DAWG

[PTC DAWG]

40 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

If you want to avoid most of these restrictions, your best bet is to sail on one of NCL's cruises out of Jamaica or the DR. NCL has already announced that you won't be restricted to ship-only excursions. Frank Del Rio has made it clear that he thinks the strict CDC mandates about masking are absurd for fully vaccinated cruises, so I don't expect a very strict mask mandate on board. You don't have to worry about quarantining, because the likelihood of an outbreak on a ship with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is next to zero.

The Joy out of Jamaica is looking better and better for September.  🙂

[JamieLogical]

2 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

The Joy out of Jamaica is looking better and better for September.  🙂

 

I am booked on a B2B in September. Cannot wait!

[DCGuy64]

11 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

Leadership is important...sounds like DC needs some.  Masks outside are idiotic.  

Oh and no dancing, either. Unbelievable....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/07/washington-d-c-couples-call-wedding-dance-ban-excessive/4993111001/

 

No dancing at weddings. I'm not even making this up, God help me. 🙄

[kirtihk]

18 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Oh and no dancing, either. Unbelievable....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/07/washington-d-c-couples-call-wedding-dance-ban-excessive/4993111001/

 

No dancing at weddings. I'm not even making this up, God help me. 🙄

I'm surprised you (or anyone) are still surprised to see these meshuggeneh  "regulations"/"rules"/"recommendations"/"guidelines"/"laws"/"directives".

 

I'm finding myself within last 4.5 years and 3 days doing unhealthy conversations (debates) in my head, and I wonder whether any one else is in the same boat (it' an only boat I envision myself in now).

Edited May 11, 2021 by kirtihk

[direstealth]

1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

 

If you want to avoid most of these restrictions, your best bet is to sail on one of NCL's cruises out of Jamaica or the DR. NCL has already announced that you won't be restricted to ship-only excursions. Frank Del Rio has made it clear that he thinks the strict CDC mandates about masking are absurd for fully vaccinated cruises, so I don't expect a very strict mask mandate on board. You don't have to worry about quarantining, because the likelihood of an outbreak on a ship with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is next to zero.

 

Thanks for this.  Very useful indeed.  I normally sail with P&O so maybe a change of cruise company is long overdue.  Also, I am certainly not worried about catching COVID, even before I was vaccinated it wasn't a worry.  I have a health relationship to risk, not a paniced one 🙂 And totally agree, next to zero risk on a vaccinated ship.

[JamieLogical]

8 minutes ago, direstealth said:

 

Thanks for this.  Very useful indeed.  I normally sail with P&O so maybe a change of cruise company is long overdue.  Also, I am certainly not worried about catching COVID, even before I was vaccinated it wasn't a worry.  I have a health relationship to risk, not a paniced one 🙂 And totally agree, next to zero risk on a vaccinated ship.

 

Prices are reasonable on the Joy out of Jamaica in September. Definitely take a look and see if you think it would be a good fit!

[steveknj]

I'll be honest, I haven't read this whole thread, so if this point has been made, I apologize.  You have to look at things from NCL's viewpoint.  This is as much a business decision as anything.   Imagine if NCL loosens it's restrictions.  No masks, unvaccinated people on board, etc.   Imagine if, with that, there's an outbreak on board.  That essentially kills cruising for another year at least (and may be the fatal blow to the industry).   Remember everyone's reaction at the beginning of the pandemic to the Princess cruise that had hundreds of cases on board.  Does anyone here want to even get on board and risk getting stuck at sea where they won't dock the ship or wind up at some port and having to find your way back home?   This is the ONLY smart thing that NCL can do. If everyone is vaccinated, and people take the requested precautions, the risk of this happening is SO much less.

 

I have two cruises scheduled, one in January (which I figure we will know so much more by then) and one in August 2022, where we should be opened up completely.  I'm not scared, or worried.  I've had my shots, as have my wife and kids.  

[JamieLogical]

7 minutes ago, steveknj said:

I'll be honest, I haven't read this whole thread, so if this point has been made, I apologize.  You have to look at things from NCL's viewpoint.  This is as much a business decision as anything.   Imagine if NCL loosens it's restrictions.  No masks, unvaccinated people on board, etc.   Imagine if, with that, there's an outbreak on board.  That essentially kills cruising for another year at least (and may be the fatal blow to the industry).   Remember everyone's reaction at the beginning of the pandemic to the Princess cruise that had hundreds of cases on board.  Does anyone here want to even get on board and risk getting stuck at sea where they won't dock the ship or wind up at some port and having to find your way back home?   This is the ONLY smart thing that NCL can do. If everyone is vaccinated, and people take the requested precautions, the risk of this happening is SO much less.

 

I have two cruises scheduled, one in January (which I figure we will know so much more by then) and one in August 2022, where we should be opened up completely.  I'm not scared, or worried.  I've had my shots, as have my wife and kids.  

 

This thread is primarily about the rules that came out of the CDC last week on cruising out of the US, not NCL's policies. NCL has already announced its intention to require fully vaccinated crew and passengers through the end of October. However, the CDC guidance seems to assume "mixed company", meaning both vaccinated and unvaccinated people on board and, therefor, calls for VERY strict mitigation requirements. Frank Del Rio expressed his outrage at the guidance during the NCLH earning call last week as well as on CNBC. He feels that there should be separate guidance for fully vaccinated sailings so NCL can resume cruising from the US sooner. Under the current CDC restrictions, Del Rio seems disinclined to sail out of US ports at all.

Edited May 11, 2021 by JamieLogical

[At Sea At Peace]

8 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

This thread is primarily about the rules that came out of the CDC last week on cruising out of the US, not NCL's policies. NCL has already announced its intention to require fully vaccinated crew and passengers through the end of October. However, the CDC guidance seems to assume "mixed company", meaning both vaccinated and unvaccinated people on board and, therefor, calls for VERY strict mitigation requirements. Frank Del Rio expressed his outrage at the guidance during the NCLH earning call last week as well as on CNBC. He feels that there should be separate guidance for fully vaccinated sailings so NCL can resume cruising from the US sooner. Under the current CDC restrictions, Del Rio seems disinclined to sail out of US ports at all.

 

Agreed and nice summary.  Very rare these days here and also welcomed.

 

I've still not found clear reasoning by the CDC for the 98% 95% vaccinated crew and passengers respectively.

 

Based on the NYT article today, with the potential the outdoor transmission might have been overstated by 10 to 100 times, the CDC motive for the 98% 95% rule might just be that they really can't give a scientific reply to NCL and Del Rio as to why they can't sail now with 100% vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

As each day passes, as the vaccination rates climb, and now as we see the ebb and plateau, there is a wary large segment of the population choosing not to get the vaccines.  If there are no rewards, i.e., a return towards less tyrannical edicts on individuals and activities, combined with a growing list of intentional misinformation and guidance by the CDC, then those holding out on the vaccine will become more ensconced in their decision.