Who in their right mind would want to cruise under these conditions??????

[kirtihk]

On 5/7/2021 at 4:26 PM, Topdog52 said:

Yeah but do you pay $7000 to wear a mask in your everyday life?

How about $14,000 plus over $1,000 for air?

[kirtihk]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:36 PM, kochleffel said:

Wearing a mask while eating is ridiculous.

 

On the other hand, if a cruise line requires masks in public areas at other times, I'll wear one.  The cruise line can put those who refuse off the ship at the next port of call. In the olden days they would have been made to walk the plank.

As I am saying, there will be no the next port of call.

[kirtihk]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:58 AM, RocketMan275 said:

How about while sitting on your balcony?

I know it's pleasing to consider the balcony as part of the inside your stateroom but it's not clear that CDC shares that belief.

After all, one can be on one's balcony and within six feet of another person sitting on their balcony.

Remembering all the debates about how wind can move smoke along the side of the ship, wouldn't wind do the same with the virus?

The CDC could easily rule that your balcony is just like any other open area on the ship, therefore wearing a mask there would be required.

I wonder what if one jumps off the ship after being over stressed by breathing CO2? Would it also be ruled “just like any other open area on the ship”? - hay, stop, go back, nut your rag on, now you may jump.

[BirdTravels]

4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

How can that be??? Don't all airlines require a Covid test?

No. Airlines do not require any covid testing to fly. I fly several times a month. 

 

Some locations, like Hawaii, require that you have a negative  test to enter the state. And some/most countries require you to have a negative test to enter their country. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by BirdTravels

[kirtihk]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:16 AM, harkinmr said:

There are elevator capacity protocols in hotels and office buildings across the country now. There are also similar capacity restrictions on current sailings around the world. This rule is not unexpected.  Anyone venturing to cruise at the restart should expect lines at elevators and be willing to take the stairs at times. 

From deck 2 to deck 15

[BermudaBound2014]

4 hours ago, Stallion said:

I'm sure that article is very popular on Right-wing websites because he's written several Covid denier articles but are you aware that Ronald B. Brown Ph. D is simply a graduate student at Waterloo and not even a member of the faculty? Hardly an expert in his field and not a medical doctor. His opinion wouldn't be admissible in any administrative or judicial proceeding

 

Here's the Waterloo website-see if you can find him among the faculty

 

https://uwaterloo.ca/faculties-academics

 

Here's the School of Public Health and Health Systems, faculty which he lists under his name(see his article)

 

https://uwaterloo.ca/public-health-and-health-systems/about/people/group/53

 

An inquiry was made to Waterloo U for comment:

Reply from the Director of UW's School of Public Health and Health Systems:

"Ronald Brown is a graduate student in the School of Public Health and Health Systems. He is not a member of faculty, nor does he have a PhD from the School.

As I understand it, this is a sole-authored paper submitted for publication, and represents solely the opinions/reasoning of the author."

 

 

 Ironically you have left out important information (exactly what Dr. Brown is accusing big pharma of). I will assume you operate with the best intentions and have accidentally omitted some rather important details:

 

When asked about his role with the University of Waterloo, Dr. Brown replied:

I am currently a doctoral candidate in epidemiology. I already hold a PhD in industrial organizational psychology.

 

His google scholar page is worth a peek: https://scholar.google.ca/citations?user=ul-39ssAAAAJ&hl=en

 

If that wasn't enough to establish some level of credibility, here is a link to 236 other articles he has written which are logged in the National Library of Medicine: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Brown+RB&cauthor_id=32782048

 

Dr. Brown may not be a medical MD, but articles he has authored date back decades and are published in the National Library of Medicine. After an (albeit quick) glance I don't see a single article that would indicate he is a right wing Covid denier. 

 

Unless I've missed something (and I welcome your input), the man has earned my respect.  You may not believe the findings in his article, but IMO you have painted him unfairly. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[kirtihk]

On 5/8/2021 at 11:28 AM, harkinmr said:

Your September cruise is a ways off so things may change dramatically in the interim.  It will be interesting to see NCL's own protocols in action over the next few months on their cruises outside the US.  

I already moved my March 2022 to July. They will never stop.

[kirtihk]

On 5/8/2021 at 3:06 PM, jonbgd said:

I was wondering how to attach a mask to my snorkel 🤔

On the top

[kirtihk]

On 5/8/2021 at 4:57 PM, harkinmr said:

You do realize that wristbands are already being used by the cruise lines for contact tracing on ships.  All of the lines will be doing it in some form or another going forward.

I picture a nice Alpine herd of cows with a beautiful bells sound in thin air...

[BermudaBound2014]

6 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

 

. With the information we have now (the only information I have with which to make an informed decision), my risk of dying of COVID as a 42 year-old woman is greater that 125 in a million.

 

We have established that the risk in our age group is 0.0125%. I suggest that the risk is significantly lower without co-morbilidity factors, but let's just ignore that discussion for now. I engage in multiple activities each day with a risk factor higher than 0.0125% without taking preventative measures. My tolerance for risk before taking action is greater than yours. That doesn't make me better (or worse). 

 

6 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

My risk of dying from the Pfizer vaccine is zero. Literally hundreds of millions of doses of the Pfizer have been administered (including the two I already received) in the US with zero deaths.

 

We disagree here.  I do not believe you can claim that the risk of dying from the Pfizer vaccine is zero. Granted the odds appear very low (similar to the low odds of me contracting covid in the first place), but they are not zero.

 

6 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

 

What it all boils down to is that, with the information we have RIGHT NOW, getting vaccinated is clearly MUCH safer than not getting vaccinated.

 

I would agree that right now (as in this instant on 5/9 before any new information emerges) getting vaccinated appears quite safe and likely significantly reduces your 0..0125% chance of dying from covid. We differ in that I don't believe it necessary to take any action for a risk level of 0.125% (even if the risk of long term effects is higher). I hope we can agree to disagree respectfully.

 

The one thing that does appear consistent throughout this entire storm is that what we know about both covid and the vaccine changes very rapidly. I hope we can all agree that we are still very early in the data gathering process and acknowledge that what we believe to be true today, may not be true tomorrow.

 

 

[Stallion]

52 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 Ironically you have left out important information (exactly what Dr. Brown is accusing big pharma of). I will assume you operate with the best intentions and have accidentally omitted some rather important details:

 

When asked about his role with the University of Waterloo, Dr. Brown replied:

I am currently a doctoral candidate in epidemiology. I already hold a PhD in industrial organizational psychology.

 

His google scholar page is worth a peek: https://scholar.google.ca/citations?user=ul-39ssAAAAJ&hl=en

 

If that wasn't enough to establish some level of credibility, here is a link to 236 other articles he has written which are logged in the National Library of Medicine: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Brown+RB&cauthor_id=32782048

 

Dr. Brown may not be a medical MD, but articles he has authored date back decades and are published in the National Library of Medicine. After an (albeit quick) glance I don't see a single article that would indicate he is a right wing Covid denier. 

 

Unless I've missed something (and I welcome your input), the man has earned my respect.  You may not believe the findings in his article, but IMO you have painted him unfairly. 

 

 

No doctoral student in any course will qualify as an expert witness in a administrative or judicial hearing--and I have no idea what relevance a degree in industrial organizational psychology could offer with regard to the opinions he is offering. Its not sufficient to simply be smart. Courts strictly review the reliability and relevance of expert testimony. See Rule 702 of the Federal Rules of Evidence. Further, there are barriers from offering testimony which has not accepted by scientific consensus after strenuous peer review to prevent the offer of "Junk Science". "Experts" on fringe, unaccepted areas of medicine or other expertise get rejected all the time despite the fact their resumes are ostensibly impressive. They are called Daubert hearings-look it up

Edited May 10, 2021 by Stallion

[BermudaBound2014]

12 minutes ago, Stallion said:

No doctoral student in any course will qualify as an expert witness in a administrative or judicial hearing--and I have no idea what relevance a degree in industrial organizational psychology could offer with regard to the opinions he is offering. Its not sufficient to simply be smart. Courts strictly review the reliability and relevance of expert testimony. See Rule 702 of the Texas Rules of Evidence. Further, there are barriers from offering testimony which has not accepted by scientific consensus to prevent the offer of "Junk Science". "Experts" on fringe, unaccepted areas of medicine or other expertise get rejected all the time despite the fact their resumes are ostensibly impressive. They are called Daubert hearings-look it up

 

 

I thought Dr. Brown was pointing out a discrepancy he found in the way that vaccine efficiency is reported. I suspect Dr. Brown doesn't care if the courts agree with him or not. 

 

Furthermore, who is to say whether someone with a Doctorate in organizational psychology does not have expertise in the process of absolute risk reduction (the tenet of the article)?  

 

I believe Dr. Brown has more credentials than half the interviews I see on main stream media. 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Topdog52]

1 hour ago, kirtihk said:

I already moved my March 2022 to July. They will never stop.

I have moved one of mine to the end of May 2022

[JamieLogical]

38 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

We have established that the risk in our age group is 0.0125%. I suggest that the risk is significantly lower without co-morbilidity factors, but let's just ignore that discussion for now. I engage in multiple activities each day with a risk factor higher than 0.0125% without taking preventative measures. My tolerance for risk before taking action is greater than yours. That doesn't make me better (or worse). 

 

 

We disagree here.  I do not believe you can claim that the risk of dying from the Pfizer vaccine is zero. Granted the odds appear very low (similar to the low odds of me contracting covid in the first place), but they are not zero.

 

 

I would agree that right now (as in this instant on 5/9 before any new information emerges) getting vaccinated appears quite safe and likely significantly reduces your 0..0125% chance of dying from covid. We differ in that I don't believe it necessary to take any action for a risk level of 0.125% (even if the risk of long term effects is higher). I hope we can agree to disagree respectfully.

 

The one thing that does appear consistent throughout this entire storm is that what we know about both covid and the vaccine changes very rapidly. I hope we can all agree that we are still very early in the data gathering process and acknowledge that what we believe to be true today, may not be true tomorrow.

 

 

 

Where we clearly differ is that risk of death from COVID was one of the least determinant factors in my decision to get vaccinated. Risk of severe illness or "long hauler" effects definitely played a role in my decision as well. But I would say the primary driver for me was a desire to get "back to normal" as quickly as possible. I was extremely COVID cautious, not just for fear for my own health, but mostly for fear of the health and safety of those around me. I did not want to be a vector. And I wanted to see my friends and family, be able to eat in a restaurant, be able to travel, etc. without fear for myself or others. The vaccine had given me the ability to do all of that and to me, that benefit FAR outweighs the miniscule risk of getting vaccinated. Since I was fully vaccinated (April 1 was two weeks out from my second dose), I have been able to visit my elderly parents, have friends over to my house, eat indoors in restaurants dozens of times, and travel to Mexico. None of those things are things I would have been comfortable doing unvaccinated.

 

Also, right now, the risk of death from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine is quite clearly zero, or MUCH MUCH closer to zero than my risk of death from COVID was. There have been hundreds of millions of doses administered with zero deaths.

[BermudaBound2014]

28 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Where we clearly differ is that risk of death from COVID was one of the least determinant factors in my decision to get vaccinated. Risk of severe illness or "long hauler" effects definitely played a role in my decision as well. But I would say the primary driver for me was a desire to get "back to normal" as quickly as possible. I was extremely COVID cautious, not just for fear for my own health, but mostly for fear of the health and safety of those around me. I did not want to be a vector. And I wanted to see my friends and family, be able to eat in a restaurant, be able to travel, etc. without fear for myself or others. The vaccine had given me the ability to do all of that and to me, that benefit FAR outweighs the miniscule risk of getting vaccinated. Since I was fully vaccinated (April 1 was two weeks out from my second dose), I have been able to visit my elderly parents, have friends over to my house, eat indoors in restaurants dozens of times, and travel to Mexico. None of those things are things I would have been comfortable doing unvaccinated.

 

I think I understand your rational (although it still differs from mine). I am no more fearful of the long hauler than I am the 0.0125%.  I was never, as you say, 'extremely cautious' over covid, so I can understand that the vaccination has allowed you to return to some sense of normality, especially being able to visit your elderly parents.  Mine are both gone and I miss them daily. 

 

28 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

 There have been hundreds of millions of doses administered with zero deaths.

 

I wish I could be that certain.

 

 

Thank you for participating in dialogue that did not dissolve to personal attacks and viciousness. I appreciate you for that and I do wish you a super stress free trip in the haven. You will love it!! 

Edited May 10, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Topdog52]

2 hours ago, Goldconnection said:

As a person who worked hard to establish and grow my business, no idiot would walk into my business like he is the “boss” and openly defy the policies I have set forth in “MY” business. As a business owner I suggest all idiots with that mindset to stay away if you don’t want to wear a mask. As someone said in an earlier post..

               “If someone did that to me, we would have issues..”😉

If you don’t have your own business I suggest you work hard to get one so you can walk in like the boss without a mask.

I agree!! We know 20% of the population will not get the vaccine, So do we wear the mask 6,8 or 12 more months? Wear will it end? People die every day from the Flu and every year there is a new strain that comes out. A new strain a new vaccine every year for the Flu. Should we check people for the Flu before boarding? My mask is coming off in July and your correct if people do not like your policy then they can stay out. That is what I will do if I read a sign that says this. WHEN WILL IT ALL END? 

[JamieLogical]

1 minute ago, Topdog52 said:

I agree!! We know 20% of the population will not get the vaccine, So do we wear the mask 6,8 or 12 more months? Wear will it end? People die every day from the Flu and every year there is a new strain that comes out. A new strain a new vaccine every year for the Flu. Should we check people for the Flu before boarding? My mask is coming off in July and your correct if people do not like your policy then they can stay out. That is what I will do if I read a sign that says this. WHEN WILL IT ALL END? 

 

It is my hope and expectation that once the numbers for COVID hospitalizations and death fall into the ranges that we, as a society, tolerated for flu, the mask mandates and many of the other COVID restrictions can be lifted. For reference, that would be fewer than 200 deaths per day in the US, which is what we typically see in the height of flu season. Currently, we are hovering around 700-800 deaths per day from COVID-19. That is significantly down from the heights of 3000-3500 deaths we were seeing at the peak, but we still have a little ways to go. Hopefully your estimation of July is not far off!

[CaptainHazelwood]

This is a funny thread.  Folks debating the "science," many of whom have clearly demonstrated that they don't even understand elementary school math (i.e. what a percentage is).  That said, the signal to noise ratio (expressed as a percentage) coming out of the "expert science collective" is likely less than 10% at this point.  We've never seen a scientific study of the effectiveness of masks or distancing.  Only expert "opinions."  At one time, the consensus expert opinion was that the earth was flat.  🤣  The only difference I see this time is that the chief expert/idiot said it was flat last year, than spherical, now who knows?

[CaptainHazelwood]

8 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Currently, we are hovering around 700-800 deaths per day from COVID-19. That is significantly down from the heights of 3000-3500 deaths we were seeing at the peak, but we still have a little ways to go. Hopefully your estimation of July is not far off!

Latest seven day average is 633 per CDC website.  That said, I commend you for actually introducing some real data into this scrum.  Of course, we can argue if deaths are being underreported or overreported, but your point is a good one.  What we lack with the flu comparison (I think) is that vaccinations are less meaningful, since they're typically a best guess as to the next strain.

[JamieLogical]

7 minutes ago, CaptainHazelwood said:

Latest seven day average is 633 per CDC website.  That said, I commend you for actually introducing some real data into this scrum.  Of course, we can argue if deaths are being underreported or overreported, but your point is a good one.  What we lack with the flu comparison (I think) is that vaccinations are less meaningful, since they're typically a best guess as to the next strain.

 

I follow the data posted by Johns Hopkins which seems to have slightly different numbers from the CDC site. As of this morning, the 7-day average on their site was 731 deaths per day in the US. In any case, I am quite hopeful we can get the number below a 200/day average with further vaccination over the next two months. Looking at countries that are slightly ahead of us in vaccination like Israel and the UK, that seems quite plausible.

[CaptainHazelwood]

3 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

I follow the data posted by Johns Hopkins which seems to have slightly different numbers from the CDC site. As of this morning, the 7-day average on their site was 731 deaths per day in the US. In any case, I am quite hopeful we can get the number below a 200/day average with further vaccination over the next two months. Looking at countries that are slightly ahead of us in vaccination like Israel and the UK, that seems quite plausible.

Let's put this in perspective.  The CDC also reports that close to 8000 people die in the US every day.  And of those hundreds we've been discussing, many likely die "with" Covid and not "due to" Covid.

[BermudaBound2014]

6 hours ago, BP99 said:

Hi,

A friendly comment:

Yes, you are NOT calculating it correctly.

In the USA: 32,700,000 have gotten covid and 581,000 have died.

Yes, 581,000/32,700,000 = 0.0125 BUT that is NOT a percentage (%).

To be a percentage means out of a hundred. So you must

multiply by 100 to get a percentage  0.0125 X 100 = 1.25%.

A simple example. If 1 out 100 people eat bacon then:

1/100 = 0.01 and 0.01 X 100 = 1 . So 1% eat bacon.

Also the graph on the web site https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

says that USA has a 1.7% covid mortality in the USA which is low compared

with many countries in the graph.

Health care is great in many countries and recently getting MUCH 

better since they know a great deal on how to care for people

who have severe symptoms.

 

 

 

I was correct, the number in this context is 0.0125%;  but I can see where you were confused. I was responding to Jamie who wrote "So far, in the US, 125 out of a million people aged 18-49 have died of COVID-19. That's not 125 out of a million *who got COVID* died, that's 125 out of a million Americans 18-49 PERIOD. SO FAR!"  

 

0.0125% is correct in this case, but I do thank you for double checking.

[tallyho8]

It ha been stated that the only way we will get back to normal in this world is to  be able to establish "herd immunity" to covid. Recently, we have been told that herd immunity will not become a reality in the USA because too many people are refusing to get a vaccination due to ignorance, political or religious beliefs or just to prove they don't have to do what the government recommends.

 

This minority of selfish people will keep us having to suffer all the consequences of the virus being around for possibly years to come and many more people dying in the future.

 

Hundreds of millions of people have already had the Moderna and Pfizer vaccinations without any major symptoms for months now but that is not enough proof for the naysayers. Now they say they don't know what effect it might have 10 years from now. Of course they don't know what effect having covid will have in 10 years from now either. In the history of the USA there have never been any major after affects years late from any vaccines Americans have had. 

 

The ones who won't take the vaccine because they don't know what is in it are the same ones who eat hot dogs and potted meat. They don't want to admit they are afraid of the iddy biddy needle.

[BermudaBound2014]

@tallyho... I started to type a response and then realized that your post makes me sad on many levels. Instead of debating the incorrect assumptions you have made, I am choosing to simply wish you well. 

[Tippyton]

Not sure why anybody is surprised by all this.  The term rudderless comes to mind.