Confused about Carnival ships in Florida

[TargetsMom]

I understand how Royal Caribbean is getting around the law that prevents the cruise lines from asking about one's vax status (by "allowing" pax to "volunteer" their status and treating those who choose not to as unvax'd). Carnival seems to be saying that their ships will sail out of Florida with 95% vax'd and are requiring proof of vax. So are they going to be able to sail? Will they be fined? Or ... am I missing something?

 

Also, reading the covid info on the Carnival site it sounds as if vax'd people will not have to wear masks indoors in most cases. Since the CDC just recommended masks for everyone indoors, even vax'd folks, I wonder if Carnival will change course (so to speak) at the last minute?

 

Thoughts?

 

kathy

[IntrepidFromDC]

Carnival is also asking if people want to volunteer to show proof of vaccination.  Anyone who doesn't goes into the "5% throw your name in a hat and hope we pull it out" pool.  They also have added protocols and expenses like covid travel insurance and testing.

 

Second question is one I think we're all crossing our fingers on but nobody knows.  I really do not want to wear a mask.  I would have gotten vaccinated anyway, but I thought mask-free for vaccinated was our justified reward.  I guess things may change due to delta and any other evil greek letter variant that arises.

[BlerkOne]

Carnival is complying with the law AND sailing 95+% vaccinated. Since such a high percentage is vaccinated, I hope they don't require masks indoors for vaccinated passengers, but they could. I think it will depend on the number of cases they find on ships.

[TargetsMom]

48 minutes ago, IntrepidFromDC said:

Carnival is also asking if people want to volunteer to show proof of vaccination.  Anyone who doesn't goes into the "5% throw your name in a hat and hope we pull it out" pool.  They also have added protocols and expenses like covid travel insurance and testing.

 

Second question is one I think we're all crossing our fingers on but nobody knows.  I really do not want to wear a mask.  I would have gotten vaccinated anyway, but I thought mask-free for vaccinated was our justified reward.  I guess things may change due to delta and any other evil greek letter variant that arises.

 

Thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear that Carnival is also working around the recent law. (I would comment more on that but I don't want my messages to get zapped ha!)

 

Like most people here, I ***really*** want to cruise again but I ***really*** DO NOT want to wear a mask on the ship. I am going to wait a while to book something until things are less up in the air. Fingers crossed that is soon.

 

Thx again.

 

k.

[SNJCruisers]

Kathy..

There is no reason to worry at this point.  The Horizon and other ships that are cruising out of FLA only need masks to be worn while in the terminal before and after the cruise.  On top of this, there are certain ports of call where you may have to wear a mask either outside, inside or everywhere. If this possibility dampens your desire to cruise during the short term, then you should wait until 2022.  But you did post that you really want to cruise and you just don't  want to wear a mask on a ship.  This is Carnival's current policy.  It could change because of the unvaccinated refusing to take the jab even with the overwhelming majority of those new cases in hospitals belonging to those who are unvaccinated. 

[wemjam]

10 hours ago, IntrepidFromDC said:

Carnival is also asking if people want to volunteer to show proof of vaccination.  Anyone who doesn't goes into the "5% throw your name in a hat and hope we pull it out" pool.  They also have added protocols and expenses like covid travel insurance and testing.

 

Second question is one I think we're all crossing our fingers on but nobody knows.  I really do not want to wear a mask.  I would have gotten vaccinated anyway, but I thought mask-free for vaccinated was our justified reward.  I guess things may change due to delta and any other evil greek letter variant that arises.

Right there with you.  I am the kind of person that doesn't even take an aspirin if I don't absolutely, positively have to, but got vaccinated because I wanted to be able to have the freedom to travel again and not wear a mask.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed this doesn't blow up and we all end up in masks on the ship!  Will I still take my 4 cruises this year - ABSOLUTELY, will I complain the whole time if I get stuck wearing a mask - ABSOLUTELY lol!  Not really, but I am sure it will be at least once or twice 

[tallnthensome]

CDC only recommends masking for the vaccinated indoors in areas of the country with high rates of Covid transmission. One would think that a fully vaccinated cruise ship would NOT be one of them. I’m not wearing a mask, they can try and throw me off the Panorama next month if they want . 

[TNcruising02]

Carnival can use CDC guidance in order to sail with mostly vaccinated.  They have cleverly been able to do this.  As it is now, there are few mask requirements on the ships.  However, that could change if Florida loses their court case on the appeal.  Then the CDC can mandate masks for everyone on cruise ships and the cruise lines would have no choice but to require them.  

My cruise is in a little over three weeks and I am waiting to see how this plays out.  If masks are required at all times on the ship, I am going to move my cruise.  As it is right now, the CDC's recommendations are just guidance and not mandates since the judge ruled against them.  I don't know how long it will take for the CDC's appeal.

[firedisney97]

CDC has stated that if a cruise line (any of them) choose to NOT follow the recommendations of the Conditional Sail Order (it is now recommendations, not required) then cruise ships will fall under the federal transportation requirements and anyone on those ships will have to wear masks (think airports, buses, trains)  Because Royal and Carnival, and others are already following the recommendations of the CSO I don't see them having to change the requirements they already have in place for masks.  

[kitten816]

Would this be a reason why they removed Key west? 

[SCBarker]

5 minutes ago, kitten816 said:

Would this be a reason why they removed Key west? 

Key West residents voted to not allow any more large cruise ships to dock, ever.  The Governor overruled the people's wishes.  I think that's the whole reason that port is up in the air right now.

[lobster1313]

23 minutes ago, SCBarker said:

Key West residents voted to not allow any more large cruise ships to dock, ever.  The Governor overruled the people's wishes.  I think that's the whole reason that port is up in the air right now.

The state legislature which represents the people of the entire state are the ones that passed the bill to overrule the local referendum.  

[SCBarker]

Just now, lobster1313 said:

The state legislature which represents the people of the entire state are the ones that passed the bill to overrule the local referendum.  

Thanks for the correction.

[Brew12]

Two pieces to the puzzle. The CDC CSO's allow two options to cruise ships. At it's most basic, it requires 95% vaccinations and sail almost the same as pre Covid. The other option is to sail less than 95% vaccinated but then have to mask and maintain social distancing in all indoor areas not designated as vaccinated only. These requirements are being challenged by the State of Florida in court and following them keeps flipping between voluntary and mandatory. Cruise lines have indicated they will follow them (or in some cases exceed them) regardless.

 

The 2nd part is Florida attempting to ban mandatory vaccine checks. This has also gone back and forth in the courts. Cruise lines risk a $5k fine for each individual who they require to show proof of a vaccine. Cruise lines seem to be completely disregarding this law regardless. Only 1 cruise line has even bothered to challenge it in court. My guess (and it is strictly a guess) is that cruise lines have basically told Florida that they won't follow the law or pay the fine. If Florida wants to kick them out of the State, so be it. As much money as Florida makes from the cruise lines, it is unlikely to happen imo. So, for now anyway, blocking checking for vaccines seems to be a non issue.

[arkaine23]

2 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Carnival can use CDC guidance in order to sail with mostly vaccinated.  They have cleverly been able to do this.  As it is now, there are few mask requirements on the ships.  However, that could change if Florida loses their court case on the appeal.  Then the CDC can mandate masks for everyone on cruise ships and the cruise lines would have no choice but to require them.  

My cruise is in a little over three weeks and I am waiting to see how this plays out.  If masks are required at all times on the ship, I am going to move my cruise.  As it is right now, the CDC's recommendations are just guidance and not mandates since the judge ruled against them.  I don't know how long it will take for the CDC's appeal.

What nonsense is this now?  Its a fluid situation, I know....

 

I'm pretty sure that

A)  Carnival and every other line sailing from Florida is choosing to continue to voluntarily follow the CSO regardless of Florida's lawsuit vs CDC

 

B)  The CDC was willing to leverage its mass transport/transport hub mask rule over Florida cruise ships that did not voluntarily follow the CSO, which there have so far been none

 

C)  Ships the CDC cannot confirm compliance with the CSO will have a new color status- gray

Edited July 28, 2021 by arkaine23

[TNcruising02]

2 hours ago, Brew12 said:

Two pieces to the puzzle. The CDC CSO's allow two options to cruise ships. At it's most basic, it requires 95% vaccinations and sail almost the same as pre Covid. The other option is to sail less than 95% vaccinated but then have to mask and maintain social distancing in all indoor areas not designated as vaccinated only. These requirements are being challenged by the State of Florida in court and following them keeps flipping between voluntary and mandatory. Cruise lines have indicated they will follow them (or in some cases exceed them) regardless.

 

The 2nd part is Florida attempting to ban mandatory vaccine checks. This has also gone back and forth in the courts. Cruise lines risk a $5k fine for each individual who they require to show proof of a vaccine. Cruise lines seem to be completely disregarding this law regardless. Only 1 cruise line has even bothered to challenge it in court. My guess (and it is strictly a guess) is that cruise lines have basically told Florida that they won't follow the law or pay the fine. If Florida wants to kick them out of the State, so be it. As much money as Florida makes from the cruise lines, it is unlikely to happen imo. So, for now anyway, blocking checking for vaccines seems to be a non issue.

 

Carnival is legally able to follow CDC guidelines in the state of Florida without breaking the law.  If Florida loses the appeal then they will be forced to do whatever the CDC requires and it will not be up to the cruise lines. That means they can shut down the cruise industry if they want to.

If the CDC states that everyone must wear masks on the ship, then everyone will have to wear masks.  That's what their original requirement was.  They wanted everyone to wear masks.

If you read the executive order, Section 5, you will see that it states:

"The requirements in this order do not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting COVID-19 screening protocols in accordance with state and federal law to protect public health, and nothing herein shall be construed to interfere with individuals' rights to access their own personal health information under federal law." 

Edited July 28, 2021 by TNcruising02

[arkaine23]

I guess I just find it interesting that you are concerned that the CDC would do that, as if their goal is to stick it to the cruise industry and make cruising un-fun instead of their actual boring-old goal of protecting public health.  Or that Florida's lawsuit is somehow all that's preventing the CDC from going off the rails as far as safety protocols with no valid justification....

 

They've negotiated two sets of operational orders/guidelines that appear to be working for now.  That didn't happen without CLIA giving some input about what they thought they could reasonably manage while getting operations restarted.  Unless the combined CSO and individual cruise lines' protocols start resulting in failure to contain C-19 transmission aboard ships to a reasonable level and thereby prove to be insufficient, I find it unlikely that the CDC would move their Conditional Sailing phases in a backwards direction.  I'm not saying a new mask mandate for ships couldn't or won't happen.  I just think that there'd be a good reason for it if it did- like cases exploding in the US, a dangerous new variant of concern, large outbreaks detected aboard ships, etc.

 

If anything, choosing to non-comply with the CSO if the lawsuit ultimately results in having that option, would be when a mask requirement would be levied and targeted to those ships that choose not to comply with CSO guidelines.

Edited July 28, 2021 by arkaine23

[Brew12]

20 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Carnival is legally able to follow CDC guidelines in the state of Florida without breaking the law.  If Florida loses the appeal then they will be forced to do whatever the CDC requires and it will not be up to the cruise lines. That means they can shut down the cruise industry if they want to.

The only completely legal option the cruise lines have out of Florida, pending lawsuits, is to not check for vaccinations and require reduced capacity, masks, and social distancing. 

Florida's lawsuit against the CDC is meaningless. If Florida wins, then the CDC requirements become recommendations. If the CDC recommends masks for all while indoors, cruise lines will have people in masks. If the CDC recommends cruise lines stop sailing, they will stop sailing. If they sail without following SOME kind of official guidance it will be open season for lawyers to go after them if anyone gets Covid. 

It just doesn't matter if the CDC CSO's are requirements or recommendations, the cruise industry doesn't have any less restrictive guidelines to follow that they can point to and say they are trying to keep cruisers safe. They have to follow them either way.

[TNcruising02]

2 minutes ago, Brew12 said:

The only completely legal option the cruise lines have out of Florida, pending lawsuits, is to not check for vaccinations and require reduced capacity, masks, and social distancing. 

Florida's lawsuit against the CDC is meaningless. If Florida wins, then the CDC requirements become recommendations. If the CDC recommends masks for all while indoors, cruise lines will have people in masks. If the CDC recommends cruise lines stop sailing, they will stop sailing. If they sail without following SOME kind of official guidance it will be open season for lawyers to go after them if anyone gets Covid. 

It just doesn't matter if the CDC CSO's are requirements or recommendations, the cruise industry doesn't have any less restrictive guidelines to follow that they can point to and say they are trying to keep cruisers safe. They have to follow them either way.

They will have to follow them if they lose the lawsuit.  However, if Florida wins the lawsuit, then the infection rate that the CDC has to shut down cruises will not become a mandate.  The cruise lines could also cruise with less than 95% vaccinated without doing test cruises.  So, there is a reason for the lawsuit.  It's not just fluff.

[Brew12]

Just now, TNcruising02 said:

They will have to follow them if they lose the lawsuit.  However, if Florida wins the lawsuit, then the infection rate that the CDC has to shut down cruises will not become a mandate.  The cruise lines could also cruise with less than 95% vaccinated without doing test cruises.  So, there is a reason for the lawsuit.  It's not just fluff.

Except that they won't. They may no longer be legally required to, but they will still follow them. The cruise industry isn't fighting the CDC on these, it is the state. I think it is NGL that doesn't think the CDC CSO's are strict enough and plan on going 100% vaccination on all cruises.

So, unless a respected and recognized body comes up with sailing guidance that is less restrictive than what the CDC puts out, the cruise industry has no choice but follow whatever the CDC says. 

[arkaine23]

Cruise lines don't want to submit their ships to constant CDC/USCG inspections in order to be allowed to dock in US ports, and don't want to be liable in passenger lawsuits over not doing enough to protect them from C-19.  Therefore they'll choose to follow CDC guidelines regardless of what the courts say about the enforcibility of the CSO in Florida.  ...I think is what Brew12 was saying...

Edited July 28, 2021 by arkaine23

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

 

Carnival is legally able to follow CDC guidelines in the state of Florida without breaking the law.  If Florida loses the appeal then they will be forced to do whatever the CDC requires and it will not be up to the cruise lines. That means they can shut down the cruise industry if they want to.

If the CDC states that everyone must wear masks on the ship, then everyone will have to wear masks.  That's what their original requirement was.  They wanted everyone to wear masks.

If you read the executive order, Section 5, you will see that it states:

"The requirements in this order do not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting COVID-19 screening protocols in accordance with state and federal law to protect public health, and nothing herein shall be construed to interfere with individuals' rights to access their own personal health information under federal law." 

The CDC wants to protect public health. That is their mandate. They are not the shut down the cruise line agency. Note even while Florida has been winning their lawsuit (which no cruise line joined and NCL actually filed a friend of the court against for the CDC and against Florida) nothing has changed with what the cruise lines are using as protocols.

 

For all the discussion about the Florida lawsuit, it is really a big NOTHING!

[drafterdw]

5 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Carnival can use CDC guidance in order to sail with mostly vaccinated.  They have cleverly been able to do this.  As it is now, there are few mask requirements on the ships.  However, that could change if Florida loses their court case on the appeal.  Then the CDC can mandate masks for everyone on cruise ships and the cruise lines would have no choice but to require them.  

My cruise is in a little over three weeks and I am waiting to see how this plays out.  If masks are required at all times on the ship, I am going to move my cruise.  As it is right now, the CDC's recommendations are just guidance and not mandates since the judge ruled against them.  I don't know how long it will take for the CDC's appeal.

I always thought once they were 7 miles out they could pretty much do what the ships captain wants.

[ProgRockCruiser]

17 minutes ago, drafterdw said:

I always thought once they were 7 miles out they could pretty much do what the ships captain wants.

Except the ship is returning to the home port - if they want to do that, it is expected they follow CDC (and other regulatory bodies) guidelines, rules, regulations, etc.

 

The CDC (or some authority, not sure) could decide any ship flouting those rules could be quarantined upon arrival, go though a thorough passenger and ship review/inspection, etc.

Edited July 28, 2021 by ProgRockCruiser

[ProgRockCruiser]

21 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

go though a thorough passenger and ship review/inspection

"through a thorough...".  I thought I typed it right, though, oops...

 

😉