Vaccines and Minors under 12 - NCL is moving the goalpost!

[Homosassa]

Just to set the record straight for everyone who is confused on agency jurisdiction:  The FDA is the agency responsible for approving the use of the vaccine in children .  Once the FDA approves the use in children, the vaccine can be administered to children in the USA.

 

The CDC is the agency in setting policy for the Covid 19 procedures for the cruise ships. The CDC is the agency that will amend it's Conditional Sail Order for allowing children five and up to be considered vaccinated.

 

The conditions for the amount of time between the vaccination shots will be specified and the amount of time required after the second shot to be considered immunized will be specified.

 

Trying to cut the required time frames short will not be acceptable under CDC requirements for cruising.

[1025cruise]

NCL is probably reclarifying their rules. There recently was a case of a family denied boarding even though fully vaccinated because one of the cruisers was 11. Apparently, where they were from in Canada, they were going by year only. By clearly stating no one under 12, they are covering their bases.

 

 

[BirdTravels]

14 hours ago, eplanet said:

I'm set to sail from the NCL Bliss with another family on December 5th. We have 8 and 9 year old daughters respectively. Today we got a email letting us know that they are going to cancel our reservations on November 3rd by 5:00pm - even if we show proof of vaccination. I have pasted the full email below, but here is a new "rule" they put in place.

NCL extended their "Fully Vaccinated Cruise" requirement through the end of the year on August 18, 2021. This is not new. And I assume that you have been following that in all of the communications from the cruise line. 

 

I believe that NCL hoped that younger guests could be vaccinated by the time your cruise departs, but based on approval of vaccines for 5+, that is no longer possible for your cruise. You are getting a notification now because based on your departure date, there is now insufficient time for you to get your kids vaccinated prior to the cruise. Pfizer has a minimum of 5 weeks to full vaccination. Assuming that the CDC will approve the vaccine next week, you still have to get a first shot, 3 weeks wait, second shot, 2 weeks wait (total of around 5-6 weeks from today, is the soonest). 

 

The Goalposts aren't being moved, you just no longer have time to get across the goal line before time runs out. 

 

Cruises with embarkation dates through December 31, 2021:

All guests sailing aboard cruises with embarkation dates through December 31, 2021, are required to be fully vaccinated at least 2 weeks prior to departure in order to board. Vaccines combined with multi-layered and robust preventative health and safety measures, including universal COVID-19 testing prior to embarkation, will help us provide a uniquely safe and healthy vacation environment that we believe exceeds all other vacation choices on land and at sea. Each guest must acknowledge vaccination status prior to their sailing and bring proof of vaccination to the terminal. Guests who are not old enough to be vaccinated or otherwise not eligible to be vaccinated will not be allowed on these sailings.

 

Mandatory Vaccinations Against Covid-19 on Initial Voyages

All guests and crew must be fully vaccinated, at least 2 weeks prior to departure, in order to board. Guest vaccination requirements are currently for all sailings embarking through December 31, 2021– we will follow the science to make determinations on requirements for all other future sailings.

Edited October 31, 2021 by BirdTravels

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

Just to set the record straight for everyone who is confused on agency jurisdiction:  The FDA is the agency responsible for approving the use of the vaccine in children .  Once the FDA approves the use in children, the vaccine can be administered to children in the USA.

That isn't true. After FDA approval the CDC still must act on the clinical procedures and guidelines for administering the vaccine. Until the CDC takes that action the vaccine can't be used. This procedure is not unique to this situation and in fact the CDC recently overrode the FDA approval on booster shots to permit more widespread use that the FDA would have allowed.  Please read the FDA's press release announcing approval for this vaccine.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use-children-5-through-11-years-age

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices will meet next week to discuss further clinical recommendations."

 

Also note this report quoting a White House official that mentions the CDC approval:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/10/30/1050690655/parents-should-be-patient-about-getting-covid-vaccines-for-kids-white-house-says

 

"But a top White House official is cautioning that parents shouldn't expect to be able to get their kids vaccinated the very next day if the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends the vaccine, as it is expected to on Tuesday."

Edited October 31, 2021 by njhorseman

[Homosassa]

3 hours ago, njhorseman said:

That isn't true. After FDA approval the CDC still must act on the clinical procedures and guidelines for administering the vaccine. Until the CDC takes that action the vaccine can't be used. This procedure is not unique to this situation and in fact the CDC recently overrode the FDA approval on booster shots to permit more widespread use that the FDA would have allowed.  Please read the FDA's press release announcing approval for this vaccine.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use-children-5-through-11-years-age

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices will meet next week to discuss further clinical recommendations."

 

Also note this report quoting a White House official that mentions the CDC approval:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/10/30/1050690655/parents-should-be-patient-about-getting-covid-vaccines-for-kids-white-house-says

 

"But a top White House official is cautioning that parents shouldn't expect to be able to get their kids vaccinated the very next day if the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends the vaccine, as it is expected to on Tuesday."

Thank you for that clarification from someone who spent thirty five years in the FDA and was involved in the review and approval process of medical devices and drugs.

 

Based on my years of experience, the FDA approval is all that is needed to start giving the vaccines. However, because of the public health concerns  due to a pandemic, , the CDC will certainly be involved in the setting up of parameters of setting up clinics and allocating resources.

 

However, the dosage and administration will be as approved by FDA in the labeling.

 

Two very different responsibilities and the one, the public health measures decided upon by the CDC, is very different that that of the FDA's mission to review the data and grant approval for distribution (marketing) within the restriction of the approval.

 

Reread that npt.org release carefully. The delay will be for the logistics of getting the vaccine out to sites and will be influenced by the CDC recommendations to best serve the public health. The CDC will not be overriding the FDA approval and indication for use.

 

As for the booster shots, it was not FDA's approval of the boosters that the CDC expanded upon. It was the recommendations that the FDA made to the CDC that were broadened, not the approval of the vaccine for use as a booster.

 

This may seen a a fine distinction, but such is life with interagency cooperation and implementation.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

 

However, the dosage and administration will be as approved by FDA in the labeling.

Please tell me how the above reconciles with the statement below, because who is eligible the administration of the vaccine is exactly what the CDC changed for the boosters.

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

 

As for the booster shots, it was not FDA's approval of the boosters that the CDC expanded upon. It was the recommendations that the FDA made to the CDC that were broadened, not the approval of the vaccine for use as a booster.

 

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

This may seen a a fine distinction, but such is life with interagency cooperation and implementation.

It's not just a fine distinction, because if the CDC says "no go" or just doesn't make a decision on Tuesday the vaccine can't be used on Wednesday even it's already in the hands of doctors and pharmacies. I wanted to get my booster on September 23 but I couldn't because despite it being on hand and approved by the FDA the CDC had not approved it yet. I was able to get my booster on the 24th a few hours after the CDC granted approval.

 

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

 

Reread that npt.org release carefully. The delay will be for the logistics of getting the vaccine out to sites and will be influenced by the CDC recommendations to best serve the public health. The CDC will not be overriding the FDA approval and indication for use

I have read the report carefully. You're ignoring the words " if the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends the vaccine ". Not "when" the CDC recommends..." , if.

 

There have been some people at the FDA who felt the Biden administration and the CDC have stepped on their toes . https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2021/09/fda-officials-resign-due-to-frustration-with-biden-administration-pushing-booster-shots.html . Perhaps you would have also resigned because it appears you agree with that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that the CDC will have the final say, and it's clear that recent history shows they are not just rubber stamping the FDA's approval in these matters.

 

Things change. The businesses I was in are not run the same way as they were when I when I was working many years ago, so just saying how things were done in the past doesn't negate how they're done now.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by njhorseman

[peg013]

Well it's Nov 3......has NCL cancelled your cruise or not? Were you able to get any satisfaction?

[eplanet]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:34 AM, Oakman58 said:

I'd like to know why you booked this cruise not knowing if or when a vaccine for children under 12 would be approved.   

 

We booked in March.  There was no vaccination requirements at that time for December sailings...

[eplanet]

43 minutes ago, peg013 said:

Well it's Nov 3......has NCL cancelled your cruise or not? Were you able to get any satisfaction?

To update everyone:

 

Our daughter got her first shot this morning.  We plan to have her 2nd shot on Sunday the 21st, which is 18 days and within the FDA / CDC guidelines (+-4 days) and 14 days before our cruise. 

 

In the letter, NCL said it will be cancelling cabins today at 5:00pm eastern, 2:00pm pacific time is the minor is not removed from the itinerary. The other family we are traveling with got a call already cancelling their cruise. My mother in law, who's name is on her and the kids cabin, got a missed call from NCL earlier - so I'm going to assume we've been cancelled as well.

 

Meanwhile, I've been calling / texting our PCC for several days now and the best I've got is I'm on a call and will call you back. when calling the main line, they always try to connect me to our PCC which always goes to voice mail.

 

We are frustrated with the lack of clear direction from NCL. If they are 100% going to refund us, then we will just cancel the kids cabin and leave the kids with Grandma for the week. If the refund is 50/50, then we can find a relative to leave our daughter with while the family leaves without her and if she is fully vaccinated on time - then she should be able to go. 

 

For those asking why we booked - we booked in March, when there was no vaccine requirement. As to why we didn't cancel sooner, it seemed likely that the vaccine for kids would be approved by Halloween - Covid Vaccine for Kids Age 5-11 Likely Available by Halloween, Fauci Says - Bloomberg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by eplanet

[eplanet]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:51 AM, 1025cruise said:

NCL is probably reclarifying their rules. There recently was a case of a family denied boarding even though fully vaccinated because one of the cruisers was 11. Apparently, where they were from in Canada, they were going by year only. By clearly stating no one under 12, they are covering their bases.

 

 

 

I agree. but in that case NCL was 100% wrong.  NCL's policy was only 100% vaccinated can sail, the 11 year old was 100% vaccinated in accordance to the rules of their country, and NCL still denied boarding. 

[eplanet]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:18 AM, Fido Chuckwagon said:

Trying to get your kids second dose 17 days after the first one instead of the full 3 weeks just so you can make a cruise is a really bad idea.  Those doses are spaced out for a reason.  One of the reasons moderna may be more effective then pfizer is because of the 4 week gap instead of the 3 week gap.  You definitely shoudln’t be trying to shorten that gap just to go on a vacation.

 

The FDA / CDC has found that +-4 days is safe. As for moderna being more effective, the spacing is one theory but so is the fact that dosage is much larger 100cc vs 30cc and the formula is different. 

 

If NCL has said - just take another cruise and we will give you a FCC, we would be happy to move the cruise.  Instead what they are saying is were going to cancel your cabin and you can apply for a refund (180 days). 

 

[Rocket_man]

Well publicized fully vaccinated required for all. 
Aren’t the kids in school?

[thatjoeguy]

58 minutes ago, eplanet said:

 

It also says explicitly that you shouldn’t get your second shot early, so there we are. 

[Turtles06]

14 minutes ago, Heymarco said:

No surprise here, NCL clearly indicated that they no longer value kids as customers earlier this summer (evident even pre-Covid, just more evident now). Disney, Royal, and Carnival are much better choices for those that wish to cruise with children. Parents, please take notice.

 
That’s ridiculous. What NCL did was to prioritize safety.  And they were the only cruise line with the courage to sue Florida over that idiotic law allegedly prohibiting cruise lines from requiring passengers to be vaccinated and to prove it. 

[thatjoeguy]

2 hours ago, Heymarco said:

No surprise here, NCL clearly indicated that they no longer value kids as customers earlier this summer (evident even pre-Covid, just more evident now). Disney, Royal, and Carnival are much better choices for those that wish to cruise with children. Parents, please take notice.

I think requiring vaccines is a great way to show you value kids. I’m looking forward to taking ours once they’re fully vaxed, in the correct manner. 

[tinkr2]

Wow that is really frustrating. I just do not see how your kids can make the cut.We have a child getting vaccinated on the 4th, the math doesn't work for you. Who told you that it can't be moved, That makes no sense? However, why wouldn't you have booked on Royal or Carnival that has protocols in place for unvaccinated children?

[Turtles06]

8 minutes ago, Heymarco said:

As a parent of a child who can’t get a vaccine yet, we don’t feel valued. What they are actually saying is that it’s all about $ and children are no longer our future.

 

The opposite is true.  If it were all about $ for NCL, they would not turn away children too young to be vaccinated.  But in doing so, as posts like yours have confirmed, NCL is probably losing some business right now.   

 

When we sailed on the Breakaway last week, the ship was only at 38% capacity.  A mega-ship with an amusement park at sea, clearly designed for families and kids.  NCL is hardly raking in the $$ with its vaccine policy.  NCL has prioritized the safety of the guests and crew on board over $$.  Good for them. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oakman58]

And if an unvaccinated child were to contract Covid while on the cruise and end up in quarantine, those same parents who insisted on bringing the child would probably throw a hissy fit about the quarantine.  And the worst case scenario would be the need for the child to be hospitalized.  In my opinion any parent who wants to bring an unvaccinated child on a cruise ship is incredibly selfish.

[1025cruise]

13 hours ago, eplanet said:

 

I agree. but in that case NCL was 100% wrong.  NCL's policy was only 100% vaccinated can sail, the 11 year old was 100% vaccinated in accordance to the rules of their country, and NCL still denied boarding. 

Actually, the rules of the country also say 12+. The only way to find out that the province was just stating "born in the year" was to contact the health department to find out that they were doing something different. It's not something that really publicized. My fault for NCL in this case was not dealing with it before the family showed up at the port. However, it did appear that NCL did try to contact the family, but they didn't see the email.

[thatjoeguy]

53 minutes ago, Heymarco said:

As a parent of a child who can’t get a vaccine yet, we don’t feel valued. What they are actually saying is that it’s all about $ and children are no longer our future. If they really cares about children, why not let them on a cruise ship like the other lines where Covid numbers have been so much better than anything on land? Or should parents just keep them in the basement for 2+ years? It really doesn’t make sense.

I don't think parents need to keep their kids in the basement for two years 🙄 but I don't think it's a terrible hardship to hold off on a cruise for another few months until the kids are fully vaxed. Kids 5 and up are eligible now, so you can plan a Christmas cruise for them, and most health officials are predicting the vaccine to be approved for younger kids by the end of the year, which makes a February cruise a real possibility. As a parent of a 5 and a 3, I'm more then ready for them to both be vaccinated, but I wouldn't take the unnecessary risk of putting them on a ship without it. 

[JennKach]

I've been trying to get a small family cruise together for a couple years now and I think it will never happen.  Our kids are in the life stage where pregnancies and births mean somebody is "out" due to being too pregnant or a baby too young to cruise.  Nobody wants to cruise without their significant other, which I totally understand and support.  One son doesn't want to get vaccinated, but he will for the cruise.  College and internships and new jobs with lack of vacation time have to be worked around.  Now throw in the vaccination status of young children, and not knowing when they will be eligible has my head spinning.  We have a window in May which works for everyone, but this throws a wrench in the situation.  NCL is my preference but I'll check into policies for the others.  I give up for now.

[hallux]

3 hours ago, Heymarco said:

and children are no longer our future

Get dramatic much?  How in the world does not allowing someone of a younger age to cruise for their safety or that of the others on board mean that they are "no longer our future"?  I'm certainly not discounting the experiences of cruising and seeing other countries, it's a great experience, but I didn't cruise until I was an adult and I feel like I turned out OK...

 

I feel like that phrase is starting to get WAY over-used...

[SliderNc]

2 hours ago, JennKach said:

I've been trying to get a small family cruise together for a couple years now and I think it will never happen.  Our kids are in the life stage where pregnancies and births mean somebody is "out" due to being too pregnant or a baby too young to cruise.  Nobody wants to cruise without their significant other, which I totally understand and support.  One son doesn't want to get vaccinated, but he will for the cruise.  College and internships and new jobs with lack of vacation time have to be worked around.  Now throw in the vaccination status of young children, and not knowing when they will be eligible has my head spinning.  We have a window in May which works for everyone, but this throws a wrench in the situation.  NCL is my preference but I'll check into policies for the others.  I give up for now.

We were waiting for the 5-12 approval to come through before we even thought about booking a cruise as our daughter is now old enough to enjoy the cruise vs. us chasing her around when she was 2.5 years old on her first one and not really enjoying it.  Most of my extended family won't be able to cruise due to the ages of their children or just fear of COVID.  However, I do think that because the vaccine is available for 5-12 year olds, NCL *should* modify their requirements for cruising to include all vaccinated passengers ages 5 and up.  In the case of the OP however, the timing of this just does not work out to be able to cruise.

[njhorseman]

20 minutes ago, SliderNc said:

However, I do think that because the vaccine is available for 5-12 year olds, NCL *should* modify their requirements for cruising to include all vaccinated passengers ages 5 and up

They don't need to say anything more than what is already there.

 Once FDA approval of the vaccine and CDC immunization guidelines  for ages 5 to 11 were announced 5 to 11 year-olds came under the same NCL protocols as those ages 12 and up. The guidelines define who is not eligible to cruise because they're not old enough: "Guests who are not old enough to be vaccinated per the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), World Health Organization (WHO) and European Medicines Agency (EMA) are not permitted to sail."

Edited November 4, 2021 by njhorseman

[Two Wheels Only]

2 hours ago, JennKach said:

Nobody wants to cruise without their significant other.....

 

Let's not ignore ALL options...😀