Tipping now more important than ever

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

....but reluctant to grant those at the bottom of the income range a living wage.

 

Heck, in the US even the people who don't work get a livable income.  Out of my pocket.

[KBs mum]

57 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

You said the US is an outlier and I demonstrated it isn't.  "I was quoted out of context" is a politician's trick.

You didn't demonstrate anything. You posted a link to an article that I know to be poorly researched, given what it says about my country. The source of the article has no reputation either way as regards reliability. 

I've literally travelled as far as is possible from my country, whilst staying on this planet, and have not found another country that has the same tipping habits as the US. 

From your personal experience, having asked a number of locals whilst there, is there another country with the same tipping culture, for the same reasons as the US, and if so which one. I will be happy to research it, if I have not been there, and may agree with you regarding that country. 

 

 

[c-boy]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Heck, in the US even the people who don't work get a livable income.  Out of my pocket.

$17 dollars to flip burgers .... and they're still short staffed 🙄

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, c-boy said:

$17 dollars to flip burgers .... and they're still short staffed 🙄

Of course, that $17 later this year probably won't buy what $10 did before covid hit us.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

You didn't demonstrate anything. You posted a link to an article that I know to be poorly researched, given what it says about my country. The source of the article has no reputation either way as regards reliability. 

I've literally travelled as far as is possible from my country, whilst staying on this planet, and have not found another country that has the same tipping habits as the US. 

From your personal experience, having asked a number of locals whilst there, is there another country with the same tipping culture, for the same reasons as the US, and if so which one. I will be happy to research it, if I have not been there, and may agree with you regarding that country. 

 

 

Of course there are very few, if any, pairs of countries which share precisely the same approaches to any aspects of their cultures.  Tipping exists, in some manifestation, virtually everywhere.  (Even in vaunted Singapore, about which one of its fans advised us that they have a service charge which is not removable).   You might not like the US approach to tipping --- I do not happen to either --- but I do feel that any particular approach to something is possibly appropriate to the environment in which that approach is taken.

 

Frankly:  I question the appropriateness of Singapore's tacking a "service" fee on top of the listed menu prices --- without giving the customer any right to protest having to pay such a fee if he (perhaps rightly) feels the service was deplorable.  But: their city-state, their rules.

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, Aquahound said:

I'm so sick of people throwing around this "living wage" banter.  What does that even mean?  Compared to who and to what?  

 

All definitions say it needs to cover essential costs of living and some say it should provide you with at least three months of savings to cover essential costs of living if you were to suddenly lose your income stream. 

[ilikeanswers]

4 hours ago, KBs mum said:

You didn't demonstrate anything. You posted a link to an article that I know to be poorly researched, given what it says about my country. The source of the article has no reputation either way as regards reliability. 

I've literally travelled as far as is possible from my country, whilst staying on this planet, and have not found another country that has the same tipping habits as the US. 

From your personal experience, having asked a number of locals whilst there, is there another country with the same tipping culture, for the same reasons as the US, and if so which one. I will be happy to research it, if I have not been there, and may agree with you regarding that country. 

 

Maybe not a whole country but there a quite a few tourist industries that have adopted US style tipping. I remember reading an article that in Kenya locals either can't get into safari park resorts or if they do they don't get great service because all the staff are favouring the foreigners especially the Americans as they will give USA style tips.

 

I have noticed in certain countries that have a lot of Americans tourists that there is an expectation that I tip like an American and get annoyed when I tip like a local 😂. 

[navybankerteacher]

59 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

All definitions say it needs to cover essential costs of living and some say it should provide you with at least three months of savings to cover essential costs of living if you were to suddenly lose your income stream. 

What does "...three months of savings..." mean?   For some, "savings' consists of  funds a responsible person sets aside from his income stream to cover his needs should that income stream dry up.   Are you suggesting that some government agency should periodically replenish everyone's, accounts so that they will always be able to get along for ninety days?

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

What does "...three months of savings..." mean?   For some, "savings' consists of  funds a responsible person sets aside from his income stream to cover his needs should that income stream dry up.   Are you suggesting that some government agency should periodically replenish everyone's, accounts so that they will always be able to get along for ninety days?

 

I am not sure I understand your question. There is an idea that a living wage should not only cover essential costs of living but also provide the ability to put a portion of income away in savings for unexpected costs, the theory being an unexpected cost shouldn't drive people straight into poverty along with the ability to save usually provides more opportunities for social mobility. The amount of savings that a living wage should realistically achieve is normally quoted at whatever would sustain you for three months sans income though some have suggested six months is a better buffer. Hopefully  somewhere in that covers your query😳. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[KBs mum]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course there are very few, if any, pairs of countries which share precisely the same approaches to any aspects of their cultures.  Tipping exists, in some manifestation, virtually everywhere.  (Even in vaunted Singapore, about which one of its fans advised us that they have a service charge which is not removable).   You might not like the US approach to tipping --- I do not happen to either --- but I do feel that any particular approach to something is possibly appropriate to the environment in which that approach is taken.

 

Frankly:  I question the appropriateness of Singapore's tacking a "service" fee on top of the listed menu prices --- without giving the customer any right to protest having to pay such a fee if he (perhaps rightly) feels the service was deplorable.  But: their city-state, their rules.

I'm not bothered either way about the situation regarding tipping in the US, it is what it is, I just factor it in to the prices when looking at menus etc. 

Service charges are often not tips, they generally go to the establishment not the staff (who may get some of it via wages) as long as they are known about before ordering (if compulsory) I don't mind them. 

[sparks1093]

6 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

All definitions say it needs to cover essential costs of living and some say it should provide you with at least three months of savings to cover essential costs of living if you were to suddenly lose your income stream. 

That is going to vary too much from location to location to be anywhere near useful. Here in the US there is a push for a federal $15 per hour minimum wage. But $15 an hour is different in California then it is in Arkansas (heck, it's probably different in different parts of California). Government does have an oversight responsibility for wages but businesses should base wages on what skills the employee bring to the table. If someone wants to earn more then they need to do things increase their value to their employer. (And the pandemic has caused many employers to pay $15 an hour just to attract workers.)

 

And pragmatically a waiter is my employee for the time he is serving me. If he is skillful and enhances my meal he gets a bigger tip. Inept, indifferent service will earn him much less of a tip. (I have never received service so bad that I've left no tip.) The same applies to any employee receiving a tip from me, enhance my experience and earn more. 

[Peter Lanky]

It is rather unfortunate that somebody highlighted the compulsory service charge in Singapore as it somewhat detracted from the point I was making. I can't defend the practice as the only purpose is to make the advertised price seem lower, but I can understand why it's done. People around the world tend to copy each other when they find out what others do. In a perfect world they would keep the good practices and lose the bad one's but it doesn't work like that, and I believe that this service charge is used simply because 'everybody else does'.

For example, if I buy a shirt there isn't a service charge for wrapping it and putting it in a bag for me, as it's factored into the price of the shirt so why do the same for bringing a drink over to my table?

 

Another issue is changing the culture of other countries. Most developing countries had no concept of tipping before mass tourism. In fact in many and also for many first world countries, the practice was considered insulting, because as others have said, it equates to subservience and charity. Yes despite warnings in travel literature, people have 'invaded' those countries and started handing out tips, often greater than a weekly income, and for a poor person, the money has a greater appeal that sticking to their culture. Also, why waste time and effort training as a professional when one can earn more bringing drinks and plates to a table? It's not really surprising that Indonesia is critically short of doctors for example.

 

So we end up with a situation as happened in China 8 years ago, when I researched the country to be told that tipping is insulting and I was happy that I could go and be free of this millstone. However on a boat trip, we were virtually chased down the road by a boat man demanding money, even though the trip was part of our itinerary. Thank you very much to all serial tippers for creating that unnecessary situation. 8 years on, I guess that money will have taken over from culture completely.

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

That is going to vary too much from location to location to be anywhere near useful. Here in the US there is a push for a federal $15 per hour minimum wage. But $15 an hour is different in California then it is in Arkansas (heck, it's probably different in different parts of California). Government does have an oversight responsibility for wages but businesses should base wages on what skills the employee bring to the table. If someone wants to earn more then they need to do things increase their value to their employer. (And the pandemic has caused many employers to pay $15 an hour just to attract workers.)

 

As far as I know no one has ever said it has to be a one size fits all solution. The idea is to try and elevate society where even those at the bottom don't have to struggle for the necessities and what those necessities are will also depend on the society. It is something I think worth aiming but realistically the path will be different for every place. 

 

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

And pragmatically a waiter is my employee for the time he is serving me. If he is skillful and enhances my meal he gets a bigger tip. Inept, indifferent service will earn him much less of a tip. (I have never received service so bad that I've left no tip.) The same applies to any employee receiving a tip from me, enhance my experience and earn more. 

 

I'm not sure I can agree with this premise. I never asked to have a waiter, that has been imposed on me as a condition for using their facilities. I don't visit restaurants to specifically be waited on. I just accept it as a system I have to go through to enjoy the meal I want. Since it isn't my choice to have a waiter I can't say I could consider them as my employee. Your employee implies you chose that person to fill a particular need which in a restaurant I haven't done. I would consider the home care workers who look after my father to be more my employees since I actually requested their services😂. 

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

It is rather unfortunate that somebody highlighted the compulsory service charge in Singapore as it somewhat detracted from the point I was making. I can't defend the practice as the only purpose is to make the advertised price seem lower, but I can understand why it's done. People around the world tend to copy each other when they find out what others do. In a perfect world they would keep the good practices and lose the bad one's but it doesn't work like that, and I believe that this service charge is used simply because 'everybody else does'.

For example, if I buy a shirt there isn't a service charge for wrapping it and putting it in a bag for me, as it's factored into the price of the shirt so why do the same for bringing a drink over to my table?

 

Another issue is changing the culture of other countries. Most developing countries had no concept of tipping before mass tourism. In fact in many and also for many first world countries, the practice was considered insulting, because as others have said, it equates to subservience and charity. Yes despite warnings in travel literature, people have 'invaded' those countries and started handing out tips, often greater than a weekly income, and for a poor person, the money has a greater appeal that sticking to their culture. Also, why waste time and effort training as a professional when one can earn more bringing drinks and plates to a table? It's not really surprising that Indonesia is critically short of doctors for example.

 

So we end up with a situation as happened in China 8 years ago, when I researched the country to be told that tipping is insulting and I was happy that I could go and be free of this millstone. However on a boat trip, we were virtually chased down the road by a boat man demanding money, even though the trip was part of our itinerary. Thank you very much to all serial tippers for creating that unnecessary situation. 8 years on, I guess that money will have taken over from culture completely.

People are generally going to take the course of action that makes them the most money and a lot of people will take a short sighted view of this, but shouldn't the question be why does the professional make less than a waiter?

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

As far as I know no one has ever said it has to be a one size fits all solution. The idea is to try and elevate society where even those at the bottom don't have to struggle for the necessities and what those necessities are will also depend on the society. It is something I think worth aiming but realistically the path will be different for every place. 

 

 

I'm not sure I can agree with this premise. I never asked to have a waiter, that has been imposed on me as a condition for using their facilities. I don't visit restaurants to specifically be waited on. I just accept it as a system I have to go through to enjoy the meal I want. Since it isn't my choice to have a waiter I can't say I could consider them as my employee. Your employee implies you chose that person to fill a particular need which in a restaurant I haven't done. I would consider the home care workers who look after my father to be more my employees since I actually requested their services😂. 

The generalized term "living wage" carries with it the implication that it is a one sized fits all proposition and while no one on this board may have said it that is the way it is touted here in the US. Bottom line is someone making minimum wage is still making minimum wage, regardless of what the amount is. If someone wants to make more then they need to increase their value to their employer.

 

You are cutting too fine of a distinction by saying you "don't chose a waiter" because if you go to have a meal at a sit down restaurant you most certainly are. There are ample self serve restaurants that would let you choose not to have a waiter. That's part of the pleasure for me in dining out is that I don't have to make my own food, serve my own food, clean up the table and then do the dishes. I can stay at home and do that. And when I choose to dine out I don't begrudge the people that serve me the tip that they have earned. 

 

 

 

[Peter Lanky]

3 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

People are generally going to take the course of action that makes them the most money and a lot of people will take a short sighted view of this, but shouldn't the question be why does the professional make less than a waiter?

Because wealthier people interfere with the income of the waiter by giving them extra 'pay', but don't do the same with the professional. In every society there is a balance, an equilibrium which works well until changed by an outside influence. It happens within our own societies usually by well meaning but ill thought government initiatives, but the result isn't as significant as it is in poorer countries.

 

If an Indonesian junior doctor earns only £10,000pa but can buy a house worthy of his/her position, then they are happy as long as other occupations are in proportion. Pay a waiter £20,000pa and the equilibrium is destroyed. The salaries do not need to be as high as western ones as long as nobody interferes.

[ilikeanswers]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

You are cutting too fine of a distinction by saying you "don't chose a waiter" because if you go to have a meal at a sit down restaurant you most certainly are. There are ample self serve restaurants that would let you choose not to have a waiter. That's part of the pleasure for me in dining out is that I don't have to make my own food, serve my own food, clean up the table and then do the dishes. I can stay at home and do that. And when I choose to dine out I don't begrudge the people that serve me the tip that they have earned. 

 

I can't say agree with this premise either. I pick restaurants based on the food I want to eat. If the food I want is at a service restaurant then that is where I will eat. I don't tell the restauranter how to run their restaurant. They are running it how they want to run it so any staff they hire is solely their employee not mine. I will except the terms required to eat at their establishment but in no way am I ever going to consider myself as anyone's employer. The restaurant's business is not my responsibility, I'm just there to have a meal😂. 

[Peter Lanky]

7 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

You are cutting too fine of a distinction by saying you "don't chose a waiter" because if you go to have a meal at a sit down restaurant you most certainly are. There are ample self serve restaurants that would let you choose not to have a waiter. That's part of the pleasure for me in dining out is that I don't have to make my own food, serve my own food, clean up the table and then do the dishes. I can stay at home and do that. And when I choose to dine out I don't begrudge the people that serve me the tip that they have earned. 

 

I agree that sitting down and being served is part of the pleasure of eating out, but I only see the waiter as being a cog in the wheel, and one of the least significant at that. Everyone from the farmer, delivery person, chef, cleaner, dishwasher, restaurant designer, electrician and so on are responsible for that meal being placed in front of me on a plate. Also I don't even choose the waiter because they initially come to me, and nowadays often a different person at different stages of dining. Agree again that they are the 'front line' and have to be nice and helpful, but that is their job. The actual job itself is very low skill, so really they are paid to be nice, not for their skill.

The same would equally apply to cabin staff on a cruise.

[sparks1093]

21 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Because wealthier people interfere with the income of the waiter by giving them extra 'pay', but don't do the same with the professional. In every society there is a balance, an equilibrium which works well until changed by an outside influence. It happens within our own societies usually by well meaning but ill thought government initiatives, but the result isn't as significant as it is in poorer countries.

 

If an Indonesian junior doctor earns only £10,000pa but can buy a house worthy of his/her position, then they are happy as long as other occupations are in proportion. Pay a waiter £20,000pa and the equilibrium is destroyed. The salaries do not need to be as high as western ones as long as nobody interferes.

People who are called to a profession aren't called for the money, they want to do the job regardless of how much they make. If they are more drawn by money then that indicates to me that they wouldn't make that great of a professional since they're in it for the wrong reason. 

[sparks1093]

16 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I don't tell the restauranter how to run their restaurant. 

Ah, but if you are objecting to paying the employees tips you are doing exactly that.

[ilikeanswers]

27 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

but shouldn't the question be why does the professional make less than a waiter?

 

I remember reading about a Tanzanian safari guide who was gifted a Land Cruiser by a grateful American tourist. Granted this is an extreme example but I do think there are a lot of tourists who go to developing countries thinking they will tip generously to "help out" people a kind of pity tipping. It is sort of like the article the OP was complaining about suggesting tips are more important now because of Covid.  It does create more problems for locals when international tourists start increasing the baseline tip. Locals can't get into restaurants and resorts because they are considered lesser tourists. I get that people are chasing the money but it is the tourist that is placing the lure. Sometimes there is such a thing as being too nice 😂. 

[sparks1093]

15 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I agree that sitting down and being served is part of the pleasure of eating out, but I only see the waiter as being a cog in the wheel, and one of the least significant at that. Everyone from the farmer, delivery person, chef, cleaner, dishwasher, restaurant designer, electrician and so on are responsible for that meal being placed in front of me on a plate. Also I don't even choose the waiter because they initially come to me, and nowadays often a different person at different stages of dining. Agree again that they are the 'front line' and have to be nice and helpful, but that is their job. The actual job itself is very low skill, so really they are paid to be nice, not for their skill.

The same would equally apply to cabin staff on a cruise.

You've never worked for tips, have you? There is most definitely skill involved, especially if one wants to work in a higher level establishment and they can do their job without being nice at all. And being nice to an overbearing customer is one of the greatest skills they need to learn. 

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I remember reading about a Tanzanian safari guide who was gifted a Land Cruiser by a grateful American tourist. Granted this is an extreme example but I do think there are a lot of tourists who go to developing countries thinking they will tip generously to "help out" people a kind of pity tipping. It is sort of like the article the OP was complaining about suggesting tips are more important now because of Covid.  It does create more problems for locals when international tourists start increasing the baseline tip. Locals can't get into restaurants and resorts because they are considered lesser tourists. I get that people are chasing the money but it is the tourist that is placing the lure. Sometimes there is such a thing as being too nice 😂. 

Yes, there is. I am talking mostly about how tipping works here in the US, using examples of people that I know and situations that I've actually experienced. I always try to tip commensurate with the local economy when I travel and certainly would never gift a Land Cruiser (well, maybe to DW).

[ilikeanswers]

7 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Ah, but if you are objecting to paying the employees tips you are doing exactly that.

 

I think we have had a confusion here. I never said I object to paying tips where culturally appropriate but I do disagree about considering a waiter as my employee. For me a tip is merely an obligation enforced by society. I will pay it according to cultural norms but beyond that I don't see myself as having a responsibility for the waiter which I would have if they truly were my employee. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[ovccruiser]

Strewth,  this has certainly wandered from topic, but it's been a good read with various viewpoints. All I will say for now is that I have yet to see an unhappy crew member or indeed any crew member complain. They always appear happy and content with their lot and carry out their duties mostly with smiling faces.