Tipping now more important than ever

[Toofarfromthesea]

1 hour ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

What the cruise lines need to do is to make their daily service charge mandatory like sales tax.  You want to cruise pay it.  They can still advertising their base fare and consider it an add on like port fees. Allowing anyone to remove those is not fair to the crew and it's also not fair to those who always pay them.  Come up with whatever figure each cruise line wants to be fair to everyone, BUT make it mandatory AND make tipping on ships outlawed to the point that anyone who accept cash gratuities is let go.

 

But they would have to give some employees even more than the grats, because in some of their home countries gratuities are taxed at a lower rate than wages.  So if you make the grats mandatory and roll them into the wage you increase those employees' taxes.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

9 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

In all instances the employee is paid based upon where the employee works, not necessarily where they live. 

 

But except for work from home jobs those are the same thing.  And in fact some companies in high cost locations are requiring employees to take a pay reduction if they work from home and relocate to a lower cost home.

[sparks1093]

1 minute ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

But except for work from home jobs those are the same thing.  And in fact some companies in high cost locations are requiring employees to take a pay reduction if they work from home and relocate to a lower cost home.

In the case of a shipboard employee the ship is their work location and everyone on the ship performing the same job should be on the same pay scale and it doesn't matter where they live, why should it?

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

But they would have to give some employees even more than the grats, because in some of their home countries gratuities are taxed at a lower rate than wages.

Not sure which countries you are referring to.  I know that in the Philippines and Indonesia, that any money received from the employer, regardless of what it is called (wage, salary, DSC, gratuity, whatever), it is taxed as regular income.  The only "gratuity" that is not taxed as regular income is money received directly from the customer.

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

What the cruise lines need to do is to make their daily service charge mandatory like sales tax.  You want to cruise pay it.  They can still advertising their base fare and consider it an add on like port fees. Allowing anyone to remove those is not fair to the crew and it's also not fair to those who always pay them.  Come up with whatever figure each cruise line wants to be fair to everyone, BUT make it mandatory AND make tipping on ships outlawed to the point that anyone who accept cash gratuities is let go.

I agree with the outlawing of tips, but not sure about the idea of showing gratuities as a separate add on item if it is 100% mandatory. If all cruise lines were compelled by whoever controls the industry to advertise a single all inclusive price, then surely that would be sufficient?

21 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Yes, I always find it amusing when someone saves themselves money, at the expense of people much lower than themselves on the global socioeconomic ladder, in the name of social equity.

I don't think that anyone is asking to save money here. Simply asking that the true cost of the trip is advertised at source. I personally want to see the staff paid more, but it must be the responsibility of their employer to make sure they get it, not the customer.

[cruisemom42]

35 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

But they would have to give some employees even more than the grats, because in some of their home countries gratuities are taxed at a lower rate than wages.  So if you make the grats mandatory and roll them into the wage you increase those employees' taxes.

 

32 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

But except for work from home jobs those are the same thing.  And in fact some companies in high cost locations are requiring employees to take a pay reduction if they work from home and relocate to a lower cost home.

 

Curious -- can you support these statements with links or more info?  

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

What the cruise lines need to do is to make their daily service charge mandatory like sales tax.  You want to cruise pay it.  They can still advertising their base fare and consider it an add on like port fees. Allowing anyone to remove those is not fair to the crew and it's also not fair to those who always pay them.  Come up with whatever figure each cruise line wants to be fair to everyone, BUT make it mandatory AND make tipping on ships outlawed to the point that anyone who accept cash gratuities is let go.

Most successful commercial operations have ways of rewarding superior performance - above and beyond base pay.  It is simple basic economics.  They have also developed ways of attracting staff and customers.  The way most US based cruise lines have approached their ways of attracting staff and customers is to leave at least part of the operation up to their staff and customers.   I happen to think that it is fair to permit passengers to pay more for superior service and less for unsatisfactory service ---- good  service, after all, is a major attraction cruising holds for the customers. 

 

People who dislike the idea of performance-related compensation are free to avoid environments where such compensation is part of the deal ----but I do not think they have the right to outlaw it in environments where  it exists with both the employer and employee voluntarily getting involved.   

 

Yes, cruising, as it is, exists because of wealth disparities which makes working on cruise ships attractive to people from poorer countries while still leaving it affordable to the mass of customers from developed countries.   Unfair ?   Yes.  but why just tinker with some of the mechanisms --- in the name of FAIRNESS, why not tax those who can afford to cruise (removing that troublesome disposable income) and send it to those in poorer countries --- thereby cutting out the middleman (the nasty cruise company who believes that compensation is actually more FAIR when related to performance).

Edited February 7, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[wowzz]

8 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Why would anyone want to leave anything extra when they had already paid it?

We cruise with lines that include tips in their fares (P&O and Saga) but will still leave our steward a little something extra, as a personal thank you for looking after us.

[Peter Lanky]

34 minutes ago, wowzz said:

We cruise with lines that include tips in their fares (P&O and Saga) but will still leave our steward a little something extra, as a personal thank you for looking after us.

It's a personal choice I agree. Where the problem lies is where that personal thank you turns into an expectation. Thankfully I've not encountered it, but I've heard some real horror stories about customers being ignored by staff when they have not been tipped.

 

Would you tip the low paid health care assistants who do a great job of looking after people in hospital though?

[Flatbush Flyer]

5 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Then why does it enter into the equation for the US government and large American companies?  Or is that not OK, either?

You’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Some (not all) gov’t and business entities pay salary premiums for working/living in a high cost location.

Look at Silicon Valley right now. Some tech companies are adjusting downward the salaries they were paying to folks who lived/worked there but who have now moved to some rural middle-America location with a far less expensive cost-of-living. 
Cruise ships, on the other hand, have workers all working/“living” in the same location (while on contract. Where their permanent home is located is irrelevant (though the cruise company will pay differential transportation costs to get them to/from their crew assignment).

[Flatbush Flyer]

26 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

....Quote:  "And in fact some companies in high cost locations are requiring employees to take a pay reduction if they work from home and relocate to a lower cost home." -- Would love some links or examples of this. 

Search the SF Chronicle archives for several stories this past year about salary cuts for tech industry personnel who have permanently left the Bay Area but still work for the company in question.

[sparks1093]

5 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

I agree with the outlawing of tips, but not sure about the idea of showing gratuities as a separate add on item if it is 100% mandatory. If all cruise lines were compelled by whoever controls the industry to advertise a single all inclusive price, then surely that would be sufficient?

I don't think that anyone is asking to save money here. Simply asking that the true cost of the trip is advertised at source. I personally want to see the staff paid more, but it must be the responsibility of their employer to make sure they get it, not the customer.

I don't believe that any organization has the authority to make cruise lines do this.

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Search the SF Chronicle archives for several stories this past year about salary cuts for tech industry personnel who have permanently left the Bay Area but still work for the company in question.

 

Interesting, but I imagine that is a pretty niche situation.

[Flatbush Flyer]

Just now, sparks1093 said:

I don't believe that any organization has the authority to make cruise lines do this.

Inclusive pricing was mandated by the DOT for airlines operating in the US. I assume the FMC could do the same for cruise lines. (The FMC is already putting the finishing touches on standard requirements for cruise refunds). They could certainly do the same for mandated inclusive pricing for any cruise line operating as a business or provider of service in thevUS.

[Flatbush Flyer]

6 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Interesting, but I imagine that is a pretty niche situation.

Can’t remember which companies but some were big players. Google was one of them.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Flatbush Flyer

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Inclusive pricing was mandated by the DOT for airlines operating in the US. I assume the FMC could do the same for cruise lines. (The FMC is already putting the finishing touches on standard requirements for cruise refunds). They could certainly do the same for mandated inclusive pricing for any cruise line operating as a business or provider of service in thevUS.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Flatbush Flyer]

5 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

We may be surprised thanks to our current Presidential administration which recently required the State Department to provide online passport renewal. Of course, it is not expected to be operational until 2023. But, that alone will be a godsend.

[wowzz]

9 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Would you tip the low paid health care assistants who do a great job of looking after people in hospital though?

If had the same person looking after me for a fortnight,  yes. Wouldn't you ?

[Peter Lanky]

4 minutes ago, wowzz said:

If had the same person looking after me for a fortnight,  yes. Wouldn't you ?

One doesn't normally have a single person but a team. I was in hospital for 4 months, 3 years ago hence me using this as an example. My 'reward' was getting my daughters to make and bring in cakes every so often, but I would never dream of handing over cash. They would likely be very embarrassed, and accepting cash would probably not be permitted anyway. 

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, Peter Lanky said:

One doesn't normally have a single person but a team. I was in hospital for 4 months, 3 years ago hence me using this as an example. My 'reward' was getting my daughters to make and bring in cakes every so often, but I would never dream of handing over cash. They would likely be very embarrassed, and accepting cash would probably not be permitted anyway. 

In which case, why ask the question ?

[Peter Lanky]

29 minutes ago, wowzz said:

In which case, why ask the question ?

Because I'm trying to find examples to highlight the strangeness of the tipping culture. I wasn't really expecting or looking for hair splitting.

[wowzz]

24 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Because I'm trying to find examples to highlight the strangeness of the tipping culture. I wasn't really expecting or looking for hair splitting.

You asked if I would tip an assistant. I said yes, and then you started telling me why it can't be done. Not me doing the hair splitting.

Edited February 8, 2022 by wowzz

[Peter Lanky]

22 minutes ago, wowzz said:

You asked if I would tip an assistant. I said yes, and then you started telling me why it can't be done. Not me doing the hair splitting.

OK, lets try a different approach. You go into an insurance broker and get a good price for your car insurance. Do you give them an extra 10%?

[sparks1093]

9 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

We may be surprised thanks to our current Presidential administration which recently required the State Department to provide online passport renewal. Of course, it is not expected to be operational until 2023. But, that alone will be a godsend.

Well, one good thing has been done (and we renew in 2025 so hopefully by then all of the bugs have been worked out).

 

I doubt that the Federal Maritime Commission has the authority to dictate to cruise lines how they will advertise their cruises and even if they do, that only affects cruises originating in US ports and has no affect on the rest of the industry. AFAIK there is no one organization that controls the entire cruise industry when it comes to how they advertise the prices for the cruises they sell. Requiring the use of all inclusive pricing may make the tips more transparent to the consumer, but it wouldn't eliminate tips which is what the previous poster wants. As long as the tipping system works for the cruise lines and the crew it will remain. As has been pointed out there are plenty of cruise lines that do offer all inclusive pricing and/or do not require tips, so if someone is opposed to the tipping system it is easy enough to avoid by booking a cruise with one of those lines.

[ontheweb]

Tips that will be added to one's account are not the only thing that does not show up in the low fares advertised by the cruise lines. You almost always see port taxes (and then a range of numbers) will be added.