Tipping now more important than ever

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I thought the discussion was about ship board positions and the crew manning them. I might have misread the post that started that conversation.

Yes, discussions on cc often get off topic.🤣  But you have to admit that this one has been fascinating.

 

And there are doctors employed on ships, so it may not be off topic of where the discussion has gone to include them.

[ontheweb]

On 2/6/2022 at 5:18 AM, glojo said:

Tipping is now more important than ever!!

 

A topic raised by one of the editors of Cruise Critic

 

I accept that tipping is a hot chesnut with both sides of the debate feeling they are right but..

 

Surely an editor should really be trying to improve the standard wage of those employees hired by agencies that treat their workers like cattle!!!  Why should tipping be more important now??

 

I say this because I have personal experience of knowing an excellent stewardess who had served on Cunard ships for thirty years and she was about to retire.

 

What pension will you get I naïvely asked?  We are all aware of the extraordinarily long hours they work and whether we agree or not with tipping, they do rely on tips\gratuities to make up their wage.  But what about a pension or even a farewell gift from the agency??

 

"There's the door close it on the way out!!!!"  Nothing... Zilch.  Not even a thank you and even though they work for a specific cruise line, that counts for nothing.

 

My point to this editor is should they not be vigorously campaigning for better pay for these agency workers??  Let's all try to shame the cruise industry into paying a fair days pay for a fair days work.  Campaign for the cruise industry to register with countries that support a minimum wage and employee protection legislation.  Disregard the rubbish about registering with certain countries so that a captain can perform weddings!!  Poppycock.

 

Let's see and hear the staff of this site getting vocal about the pay of the extremely hardworking members of the crew. do NOT put the onus on passengers to subsidise their poor pay, NO........  Let us see Carnival and EVERY other cruise line take on their books every crew member serving on their ships.

 

Let us put the onus on the cruise line to pay these workers a decent wage instead of relying on passengers to subsidise the wages of these dedicated, hard working agency workers.

 

Suffice it to say I disagree with the point raised by CruiseCritic

 

regards

John     

A question for the OP---when you either give no tip or take off the auto-tip, do you inform the steward and waiters that you are doing it for their own good as a way to increase their basic wage?

 

Another question for the OP-- How do you think they react to that? Do they thank you for watching out for their interests, or do they think that expletive deleted expletive deleted is just a cheapskate with an excuse?

[Peter Lanky]

11 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

A question for the OP---when you either give no tip or take off the auto-tip, do you inform the steward and waiters that you are doing it for their own good as a way to increase their basic wage?

 

Another question for the OP-- How do you think they react to that? Do they thank you for watching out for their interests, or do they think that expletive deleted expletive deleted is just a cheapskate with an excuse?

I say it again. If there was no tipping and everything was included in the headline price, then such 'difficult' situations would never happen. Win all round. The steward gets paid more, and the customer doesn't have to put up with being constantly insulted.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I say it again. If there was no tipping and everything was included in the headline price, then such 'difficult' situations would never happen. Win all round. The steward gets paid more, and the customer doesn't have to put up with being constantly insulted.

But do you really believe that your non-tipping will bring about that change?

[sparks1093]

19 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I say it again. If there was no tipping and everything was included in the headline price, then such 'difficult' situations would never happen. Win all round. The steward gets paid more, and the customer doesn't have to put up with being constantly insulted.

Actually it's very likely that the steward would get paid less because most people wouldn't even think about leaving anything at all.

[sparks1093]

18 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But do you really believe that your non-tipping will bring about that change?

If this is ever going to change it will be because the crew demands it. Since on the whole they are satisfied with the way things are I don't see that happening. As long as it works for the company and the employees I'm not going to push for a change.

[Peter Lanky]

26 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But do you really believe that your non-tipping will bring about that change?

I can't answer that, but it puts the onus firmly back in the hands of the cruise line. If they charged more and made the price truly all inclusive, then didn't pay the staff, I'm certain that this would spread around social media very fast and the cruise line would be publicly shamed.

8 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Actually it's very likely that the steward would get paid less because most people wouldn't even think about leaving anything at all.

Why would anyone want to leave anything extra when they had already paid it?

Edited February 7, 2022 by Peter Lanky
typo

[sparks1093]

5 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I can't answer that, but it puts the onus firmly back in the hands of the cruise line. If they charged more and made the price truly all inclusive, then didn't pay the staff, I'm certain that this would spread around social media very fast and the cruise line would be publicly shamed.

Why would anyone want to leave anything extra when they had already paid it?

Exactly my point. Now, people leave extra and that is extra pay in the crew's pocket. The cruise line would only include what they make with the auto gratuities in their pay, so without that extra their overall pay goes down.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Why would anyone want to leave anything extra when they had already paid it?

Many people recognize that the DSC is not a gratuity, and is shared throughout the pool, so it does not recognize those who give superior service, as a gratuity should.  They know it is merely a part of the cruise fare.  So, many people, hard as it may be for you to believe, leave extra gratuities directly with those whose service they appreciate.

 

The cruise line doesn't want to change the system, because it takes the onus of lowering the crew's pay (due to removed/adjusted DSC) on the passengers, not on the cruise line.  The system is a win/win for the line.

[navybankerteacher]

20 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I can't answer that, but it puts the onus firmly back in the hands of the cruise line. If they charged more and made the price truly all inclusive, then didn't pay the staff, I'm certain that this would spread around social media very fast and the cruise line would be publicly shamed.

Why would anyone want to leave anything extra when they had already paid it?

Part of the reason people choose one cruise line over an other is the level of service - and if the provider of that service receives more compensation for good service as opposed to minimal service, the service is likely to be good.   Just as a cruise line does better financially by providing an enjoyable cruise, the staff on the ships do better by providing good service - which is incentivized by better income.

 

Better football players get more pay, better pop singers make more money, better commissioned sales agents make more money if they make more sales —— why is it so hard to grasp the connection between better service and higher pay for a cruise ship employee?  They take the job in the first place not because they particularly like serving you —- but because it is the best way for them to earn money.   

[Peter Lanky]

16 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Part of the reason people choose one cruise line over an other is the level of service - and if the provider of that service receives more compensation for good service as opposed to minimal service, the service is likely to be good.   Just as a cruise line does better financially by providing an enjoyable cruise, the staff on the ships do better by providing good service - which is incentivized by better income.

 

Better football players get more pay, better pop singers make more money, better commissioned sales agents make more money if they make more sales —— why is it so hard to grasp the connection between better service and higher pay for a cruise ship employee?  They take the job in the first place not because they particularly like serving you —- but because it is the best way for them to earn money.   

So if you think one of the football players has had a particularly good game, do you go round to the changing rooms and give them a tip? Unlikely. Similarly, would you tip a pop group for a particularly good performance? Would you tip a surgeon after a particularly satisfying appendectomy? 

 

This is because they are all paid to do a job. Some people are fortunate and earn a huge salary, and some are more modest like a shopkeeper, bus driver or fireman. Surely you would not give any of these a tip either?

 

In the end it's all about culture. If you are raised in the culture of handing over a tip to some occupations, then you see it as perfectly normal. Other cultures do not, and see it as a rather quaint but strange ritual, and want to see the back of it. Also in some circumstances it leads to people from developing countries all wanting to be in service, because they really can earn more than a doctor in their country. Surely this slows down that country's development as fewer and fewer people want to do real jobs.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

So if you think one of the football players has had a particularly good game, do you go round to the changing rooms and give them a tip? Unlikely. Similarly, would you tip a pop group for a particularly good performance? Would you tip a surgeon after a particularly satisfying appendectomy? 

 

This is because they are all paid to do a job. Some people are fortunate and earn a huge salary, and some are more modest like a shopkeeper, bus driver or fireman. Surely you would not give any of these a tip either?

 

In the end it's all about culture. If you are raised in the culture of handing over a tip to some occupations, then you see it as perfectly normal. Other cultures do not, and see it as a rather quaint but strange ritual, and want to see the back of it. Also in some circumstances it leads to people from developing countries all wanting to be in service, because they really can earn more than a doctor in their country. Surely this slows down that country's development as fewer and fewer people want to do real jobs.

The bottom line is that no matter the mechanism what the employee is paid comes from the customer. Salary. Passed on to the customer. Commissions. Passed on to the customer. Tips. Paid by the customer at the point of service and the customer generally controls the amount. Shaming companies isn't going to work because this is the way they conduct business and the employees are comfortable with the system (and realize that if they provide excellent service most people will recognize this with a higher tip). I know that the UK isn't a tipped based culture but my own rule is "when in Rome do as the Romans do and don't try to change what the Romans do because the Romans don't want the change". In this instance "Rome" is the cruise ship itself. If I get the chance to travel to the UK then I will know not to leave a tip, which I am fine with. When I travel I do try to learn what is expected and then meet those expectations.

[Peter Lanky]

36 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

 In this instance "Rome" is the cruise ship itself. If I get the chance to travel to the UK then I will know not to leave a tip, which I am fine with. When I travel I do try to learn what is expected and then meet those expectations.

In general I go along with that point, but if somebody believes that what Rome does is wrong, then it seems right to influence it's change. 

 

I have solved that problem for myself by only choosing cruise lines where everything is included in the price. Effectively I have removed 'Rome' from the equation, but it's becoming clear that more cruise lines are now classed as non tipping than five years ago, so they must have a reason which I would like to believe that they are trying to be more accessible to people who don't like the idea of being compelled to hand over cash to people for just doing their job.

 

The staff shouldn't need an incentive to operate at their peak, and many people from non tipping nations don't like the idea that staff can be bribed to do this little bit more for some people, which means doing a bit less for everyone else. How can anyone be comfortable for example with being in a restaurant with a loud person who has waiters buzzing around them like flies as they hand out banknotes like confetti?

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

If this is ever going to change it will be because the crew demands it. Since on the whole they are satisfied with the way things are I don't see that happening. As long as it works for the company and the employees I'm not going to push for a change.

Unless somehow those wanting to change the system show that the crew are unhappy with the present system, they are just a bunch of "do-gooders" who claim to know better than those directly affected as to what is in their best interest.

 

As has previously been posted the crew are there voluntarily; it is not like they have been "Shanghied" and forced to work for slave wages with the hope of getting some tips.

[navybankerteacher]

43 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

The bottom line is that no matter the mechanism what the employee is paid comes from the customer. Salary. Passed on to the customer. Commissions. Passed on to the customer. Tips. Paid by the customer at the point of service and the customer generally controls the amount. Shaming companies isn't going to work because this is the way they conduct business and the employees are comfortable with the system (and realize that if they provide excellent service most people will recognize this with a higher tip). …

This is what seems to stick in their craw:  they do not like having to deal with a compensation system different from their experience — and prefer to impose their way of doing things upon the cruise lines and the cruise lines’ employees — they do not like the idea of incentive compensation any more than I like driving on the left; but, when I play on their turf I play by their rules without complaining.

[sparks1093]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

In general I go along with that point, but if somebody believes that what Rome does is wrong, then it seems right to influence it's change. 

 

I have solved that problem for myself by only choosing cruise lines where everything is included in the price. Effectively I have removed 'Rome' from the equation, but it's becoming clear that more cruise lines are now classed as non tipping than five years ago, so they must have a reason which I would like to believe that they are trying to be more accessible to people who don't like the idea of being compelled to hand over cash to people for just doing their job.

 

The staff shouldn't need an incentive to operate at their peak, and many people from non tipping nations don't like the idea that staff can be bribed to do this little bit more for some people, which means doing a bit less for everyone else. How can anyone be comfortable for example with being in a restaurant with a loud person who has waiters buzzing around them like flies as they hand out banknotes like confetti?

If I felt that what Rome was doing was wrong...I wouldn't go to Rome.

[Peter Lanky]

2 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

This is what seems to stick in their craw:  they do not like having to deal with a compensation system different from their experience — and prefer to impose their way of doing things upon the cruise lines and the cruise lines’ employees — they do not like the idea of incentive compensation any more than I like driving on the left; but, when I play on their turf I play by their rules without complaining.

The method of operating on cruise ships isn't 'owned' by any particular group of people because they started a specific routine. Cruising has a chance of being more international and attracting more people if they see that the method of operation is right (whatever right is) and just. Continuing a practice just because it's already in place is not necessarily the right way forward. In the past, people regularly used to patronise service staff, shouting 'boy' or '*****' across a busy room. It was perceived that this was wrong and the practice has largely died out. Many would put tipping in the same category.

 

[Peter Lanky]

5 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

If I felt that what Rome was doing was wrong...I wouldn't go to Rome.

As I have said, I don't go to 'Rome'. I choose non-tipping cruises or one described as 'gratuities included in the price', and without trying to sound like a smart Alec, the clue is in the title.

Anyway, if nobody had ever tried to change Rome, the real one and not the metaphoric one, they may still be using slaves to fight as gladiators, or pitting Christians against lions. 😉

[CPT Trips]

OMG. Some of these posts are astounding. Readers here (mostly) aren’t stupid.
Of course it will cost cruisers more if crew are paid more. Guess who foots the bill if we take the advice of the editors and tip more. All y’all don’t need me to answer that.

The issue of pensions is something between the employer and the employees (with their union). Same can be said of wages and other compensation. 
Arguing for the sake of argument; have fun.
 

 

[sparks1093]

3 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

As I have said, I don't go to 'Rome'. I choose non-tipping cruises or one described as 'gratuities included in the price', and without trying to sound like a smart Alec, the clue is in the title.

Anyway, if nobody had ever tried to change Rome, the real one and not the metaphoric one, they may still be using slaves to fight as gladiators, or pitting Christians against lions. 😉

There is nothing wrong with your choice and those options are definitely available. Yes, things sometimes do need to change and when tipping changes I will be more than comfortable not tipping. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:37 PM, sparks1093 said:

Yes there would be a difference based on where they lived, but that shouldn't enter in the equation from the company's point of view. Crew on the same ship should be on the same pay scale for the same job being performed. 

 

Then why does it enter into the equation for the US government and large American companies?  Or is that not OK, either?

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:45 PM, chengkp75 said:

Actually, this is not the practice in the US maritime.  Since the place of employment is variable, you can choose to live anywhere you choose, so the pay is the same for a Chief that lives in Maine as one in California.

 

I was talking about the larger issue of geography based pay differential, not strictly maritime practices.  A number of US companies and the US government itself would pay the people in Maine and CA different amounts for the exact same jobs.  In those jobs employees cannot keep the job but live anywhere they choose.  This is becoming an issue, though, in companies with a lot of employees who work remotely because they CAN choose where to live without giving up their job.

[sparks1093]

10 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Then why does it enter into the equation for the US government and large American companies?  Or is that not OK, either?

In all instances the employee is paid based upon where the employee works, not necessarily where they live. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

A question for the OP---when you either give no tip or take off the auto-tip, do you inform the steward and waiters that you are doing it for their own good as a way to increase their basic wage?

 

Another question for the OP-- How do you think they react to that? Do they thank you for watching out for their interests, or do they think that expletive deleted expletive deleted is just a cheapskate with an excuse?

 

Yes, I always find it amusing when someone saves themselves money, at the expense of people much lower than themselves on the global socioeconomic ladder, in the name of social equity.

[SelectSys]

Just now, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Yes, I always find it amusing when someone saves themselves money, at the expense of people much lower than themselves on the global socioeconomic ladder, in the name of social equity.

Lots of current tourism is based on this concept.  Cruising leverages worldwide pay differentials to create an experience that is beyond what most could afford in their home countries.  Basic economic theory would suggest this is a "win win" situation.  

 

I sometimes cross the border simply to go out for dinner.  While Tijuana is expensive relative to most parts of Mexico due to its location, the price of a comparable in San Diego would be probably 30-40% higher.