Tipping now more important than ever

[cruisemom42]

36 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I would say your reasoning is faulty. 

 

Trust me -- I left that employer as soon as I was able to find an equivalent job elsewhere and I never looked back.  From more than 30 years in the workforce I have talked to literally dozens of female colleagues who did the same...

 

....and may I add that the first company was stuck with a mediocre-performing middle manager while I moved on to become a director and during a 20-year tenure have twice won one of our company's most prestigious performance awards.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Trust me -- I left that employer as soon as I was able to find an equivalent job elsewhere and I never looked back.  From more than 30 years in the workforce I have talked to literally dozens of female colleagues who did the same...

But did you look for jobs in India?  That is what is faulty with your logic.  Comparing the west with a third world economy.

52 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

One would need to find out if the referenced European crewmember and Indian crewmember are actually performing the same job. My guess is they aren't. (But if they are it does stick in the craw if they are paid differently. )

Do doctors and lawyers make the same in India as they do in Europe or the US?  Nope.  Should they?  Or should our doctors and lawyers make Indian wages?  Whose standard to you choose?  Their cost of living supports their wage structure.

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But did you look for jobs in India?  That is what is faulty with your logic.  Comparing the west with a third world economy.

 

Obviously I can't compare the two as there is no good comparator. (If that's a word...). But I submit that they are two different constructs.

 

At the end of the day one either believes in equal pay for equal work or one doesn't.

 

 

[sparks1093]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But did you look for jobs in India?  That is what is faulty with your logic.  Comparing the west with a third world economy.

Do doctors and lawyers make the same in India as they do in Europe or the US?  Nope.  Should they?  Or should our doctors and lawyers make Indian wages?  Whose standard to you choose?  Their cost of living supports their wage structure.

I thought the discussion was about ship board positions and the crew manning them. I might have misread the post that started that conversation.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I thought the discussion was about ship board positions and the crew manning them. I might have misread the post that started that conversation.

Yes, it is.  But if you raise a entry level cruise crew to a US wage (so equal work gets equal pay), then that crew member is earning more than a doctor or lawyer back in India.  And, if you believe in equal pay for equal work, as cruisemom does, then you have to raise the wage structure of every job in India to US levels.

 

Hell, even in the US, merchant ship Chief Engineers make different salaries depending on what the contract between the Union and the company is.  Do we do the same job?  Yep.  Why the difference?  Because the cost of providing the shipping service to the customer is different in different services, leading to the ability to pay more in some services.  Container ships pay higher than tankers.  Tankers pay higher than bulkers.  Do I begrudge someone who has a higher salary than me?  No, I envy him the opportunity to have taken that job.

Edited February 6, 2022 by chengkp75

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm not going to wade into the tipping discussion. However, your post above just smacks of a tacit approval of inequality.

 

How can you say with a straight face that someone has a "choice" to take a job at sea when in the next sentence you point out that they had NO choice as there were NO jobs at home?

 

In what world is it acceptable to pay people a different wage to do the same job just because they are "getting more than they would be paid at home"?

 

It's rather like those saying (in past decades -- and in some cases still are), we can pay women less than men to do the same job, after all, up until now they are used to getting paid secretarial wages....

 

 

 

So is it discriminatory when a company, or the US government for that matter, have a pay differential based on the different cost of living in different places?  The cost of living in CA is more than 70% higher than the cost of living in Mississipi.  Should companies ignore that in setting their pay levels?  How is this different?

[sparks1093]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

Yes, it is.  But if you raise a entry level cruise crew to a US wage (so equal work gets equal pay), then that crew member is earning more than a doctor or lawyer back in India.  And, if you believe in equal pay for equal work, as cruisemom does, then you have to raise the wage structure of every job in India to US levels.

I agree that it is a complex issue with many moving parts. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

FWIW: Although the unlikeliness of a new cruise ship being built in the US makes this only academic, I would like to see at least one or two US flagged small premium/luxury ocean cruise ships in service. And, I’m betting there are enough other folks like me who would pay the increased fare to keep them afloat.

 

That describes the ships that do domestic river cruises and the fares are, as a result, pretty high.

[Peter Lanky]

Let's start by me laying my cards on the table as being a non-tipper. This is not just about cruising but every aspect of life. I do not tip; full stop. Now why do I have this belief? It's certainly not down to a single reason, but a combination, so let's start.

 

The first is that if tipping did not exist, none of these discussions would be taking place. No insults from those who believe 'it's my money and I do what I want with it', no moral blackmail from those who think that the crew members are so good (which no doubt they are) that they deserve a little extra and anyone who doesn't put their hand in their pocket is 'tight', and no more need for non tippers to try to change opinion. It wouldn't be so bad if tipping was purely optional, but it's become compulsory, so it really should be included in the headline price.

 

Now why cruise ship crew, or in the wider world, waiters, taxi drivers and a few other hospitality occupations special cases for help? You probably wouldn't tip the hospital staff who wipes people's backsides, despite being equally poorly paid, or the toilet cleaner who keeps the facilities clean while remaining invisible, so what makes the former a special case? I'd rather serve food than clean toilets or wipe arses.

 

We all know that tipping is used on cruise ships so that the business can pay as little as possible, as well as making the headline price look cheaper and to put the onus on customers to provide their staff wages, and that those cruise lines that include everything in the brochure cost a lot more. I don't think that anyone believes that non inclusive cruise prices wouldn't rise if cruise lines paid their staff properly with a minimum wage, pension plan and some decent conditions of service. How can I possibly benefit by having to make a calculation on whether to choose e.g. Cunard, and add on the tips especially when it's presented in a different currency, or e.g. Azamara and know where I stand when I read the price in the brochure? 

 

So the bottom line for me is "Stopping the culture of tipping now more important than ever". At least nowadays, more and more lines are seeing the light. and are advertising the real price of the cruise, and not 90% of the price. As customers we cannot and should not have to think about the remuneration method of the crew, as this really is the responsibility of their employers. Our job is to enjoy the cruise, not act as part time social workers. I'm sure there are enough regulatory bodies around to make things fair, and of course everyone doing the same job should earn the same, and absolutely not based on their salary's comparative worth in their own country.

 

The problem then if when people still want to tip when it is already included, and risk the possibility of it all starting off again, because human nature says that when you regularly give people something they eventually start to expect it. But that's another topic altogether.

[Toofarfromthesea]

58 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

....and may I add that the first company was stuck with a mediocre-performing middle manager while I moved on to become a director and during a 20-year tenure have twice won one of our company's most prestigious performance awards.

 

 

That practice would result in an instant lawsuit now, so things have changed.  The point is that there are improper reasons for some pay differentials, but that doesn't make ALL pay differentials improper.  So your argument that all pay differentials are the same and bad is inapt.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Toofarfromthesea

[sparks1093]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, it is.  But if you raise a entry level cruise crew to a US wage (so equal work gets equal pay), then that crew member is earning more than a doctor or lawyer back in India.  And, if you believe in equal pay for equal work, as cruisemom does, then you have to raise the wage structure of every job in India to US levels.

 

Hell, even in the US, merchant ship Chief Engineers make different salaries depending on what the contract between the Union and the company is.  Do we do the same job?  Yep.  Why the difference?  Because the cost of providing the shipping service to the customer is different in different services, leading to the ability to pay more in some services.  Container ships pay higher than tankers.  Tankers pay higher than bulkers.  Do I begrudge someone who has a higher salary than me?  No, I envy him the opportunity to have taken that job.

I do understand the dynamic. As a Cheng there's typically  only one of you onboard but if there was another Cheng onboard the same ship I would expect you both to be on the same pay scale.

[Toofarfromthesea]

20 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But did you look for jobs in India?  That is what is faulty with your logic.  Comparing the west with a third world economy.

Do doctors and lawyers make the same in India as they do in Europe or the US?  Nope.  Should they?  Or should our doctors and lawyers make Indian wages?  Whose standard to you choose?  Their cost of living supports their wage structure.

 

Large cost of living differences exist within countries as well.  And both companies and even the government recognize and adjust for this in geographical pay differentials.  People who work for the government or large national companies take this in stride, but when it is done internationally they get in a social virtue twist.

[cruisemom42]

15 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

So is it discriminatory when a company, or the US government for that matter, have a pay differential based on the different cost of living in different places?  The cost of living in CA is more than 70% higher than the cost of living in Mississipi.  Should companies ignore that in setting their pay levels?  How is this different?

 

That, to me, is quite a different situation. I am talking about two people onboard a ship both doing substantially the same job with the same level of responsibility (e.g., same job profile) and being paid a substantially different amount.

 

Both of the actual wage-earners are living onboard ship so both have presumably the same cost of living expenses whatever their off-ship living situation may be.

 

If I am asked by my company to take a position in a different country for a few years with the ultimate view that it is a 3-5 year assignment, they do not pay me at the same wage that I would earn "at home"; they pay me the prevailing wage in the country where I am working.

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

10 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I do understand the dynamic. As a Cheng there's typically  only one of you onboard but if there was another Cheng onboard the same ship I would expect you both to be on the same pay scale.

 

If Cheng1 lives in a place with a very high cost of living, and Cheng2 lives in a place with a very low cost of living, that just doesn't happen, because either Cheng1 is beggered or Cheng2 is fabulously enriched.  Which is what I think the real Cheng is saying.  And we routinely accept such pay differentials across the US and elsewhere.

[sparks1093]

7 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

If Cheng1 lives in a place with a very high cost of living, and Cheng2 lives in a place with a very low cost of living, that just doesn't happen, because either Cheng1 is beggered or Cheng2 is fabulously enriched.  Which is what I think the real Cheng is saying.  And we routinely accept such pay differentials across the US and elsewhere.

Yes there would be a difference based on where they lived, but that shouldn't enter in the equation from the company's point of view. Crew on the same ship should be on the same pay scale for the same job being performed. 

[sparks1093]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

That, to me, is quite a different situation. I am talking about two people onboard a ship both doing substantially the same job with the same level of responsibility (e.g., same job profile) and being paid a substantially different amount.

 

Both of the actual wage-earners are living onboard ship so both have presumably the same cost of living expenses whatever their off-ship living situation may be.

 

If I am asked by my company to take a position in a different country for a few years with the ultimate view that it is a 3-5 year assignment, they do not pay me at the same wage that I would earn "at home"; they pay me the prevailing wage in the country where I am working.

 

Re-reading the previous post it sounds like the PP was talking about two different ships.

[Peter Lanky]

12 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

If Cheng1 lives in a place with a very high cost of living, and Cheng2 lives in a place with a very low cost of living, that just doesn't happen, because either Cheng1 is beggered or Cheng2 is fabulously enriched.  Which is what I think the real Cheng is saying.  And we routinely accept such pay differentials across the US and elsewhere.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the majority of ship's crew come from developing countries and not Western countries, so the potential pay relative to home is not as big a factor as is suggested. If a US or European did the same job then is is likely that they just like doing the job or the onboard experience, and are not in it for the money, so would not expect a higher wage because of their home economy. Also, everyone has a choice, and the days of pressganging are over 😉

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Both of the actual wage-earners are living onboard ship so both have presumably the same cost of living expenses whatever their off-ship living situation may be.

This is where a lot of fallacy about crew wages comes in.  These are not military service people, who are provided living accommodations year round.  These crew go home now and again, and they either have someplace they rent to keep their stuff, or they have a family and home that they are paying for, even when they are on the ship.  Life on shore doesn't stop for crew, just because they are on the ship.  I know it hasn't for me, I've had to pay for my wife and sons' home, food, education, entertainment, etc, etc, even when I was on a ship in a war zone.  Was I enjoying all of that?  No, but they were.  Now, does it cost the same for me to provide for my family as it does for an Indonesian crew member?  No.  So, the wage levels will vary.

 

Or, are you thinking of two crew on the same ship making different wages, because they are from different countries?  I can assure you that doesn't happen.

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

If Cheng1 lives in a place with a very high cost of living, and Cheng2 lives in a place with a very low cost of living, that just doesn't happen, because either Cheng1 is beggered or Cheng2 is fabulously enriched.  Which is what I think the real Cheng is saying.  And we routinely accept such pay differentials across the US and elsewhere.

Actually, this is not the practice in the US maritime.  Since the place of employment is variable, you can choose to live anywhere you choose, so the pay is the same for a Chief that lives in Maine as one in California.

[Peter Lanky]

31 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Large cost of living differences exist within countries as well.  And both companies and even the government recognize and adjust for this in geographical pay differentials.  People who work for the government or large national companies take this in stride, but when it is done internationally they get in a social virtue twist.

Very true. In the UK, they get round the unequal pay by calling it 'London Weighting' rather than the discrimination that it actually is. Unfortunately it distorts the natural balance where people would normally stop taking jobs there because of the cost of housing. That's how wealth becomes unbalanced within a country, as now there is no incentive to take a job in a lower cost area that needs the jobs.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the majority of ship's crew come from developing countries and not Western countries, so the potential pay relative to home is not as big a factor as is suggested. If a US or European did the same job then is is likely that they just like doing the job or the onboard experience, and are not in it for the money, so would not expect a higher wage because of their home economy. Also, everyone has a choice, and the days of pressganging are over 😉

Well, just like why are there no manufacturing jobs in the US, or shipyard workers who average 60 years of age?  Because no one will take the job for a wage that makes US items competitive with the rest of the world.  We are not talking about a European taking a cruise ship job for Indian wages.  What the poster is complaining about is that a US able seaman makes 3-4 times what an Indian able seaman makes, doing the same job, but on different ships.  I ask whether they expect to increase the Indian seaman's wage to US standard, or lower the US wage to Indian standards.  As I've said, over 80% of the world's economy goes by sea, utilizing those crew at Indian, Pilipino, and Indonesian wages.  How do you think prices of goods would fare if the wages were increased 4 fold.

[glojo]

I am certainly not a tree hugging, left wing politically correct yah, yah but I do respect the opinions of those that disagree with my post.

 

Just checked the UK Government site and the minimum wage in 2021 was £8.91p per hour.  Or approximately £356 per 40hr week

 

We are all different.  We all make decisions and most of us make decisions that others might not agree with.  Yes, I served in the navy for 12 years but quit when I got married.  my very own personal choice. My thoughts are we are either 'married' to the navy, or married to our wife and family.  My personal thoughts, my personal decision. (53yrs of a very happy marriage) I 100% accept that others will disagree with this type of decision.  Respect to those that opted for a career in the navy.  I was lucky and could earn as much ashore as I could afloat. Clearly these agency workers are not as fortunate.

 

There is talk about indians earning a salary working on a ship that stands them in good sted when they get leave to return to their own country.  fair point but...  Does that make it right?  they have no employment protection, no sick pay, and I just could not believe that after working for one agency (and one cruise line) for thirty years they were simply cast adrift.  My opinion and yet again, respect to those that disagree... 

 

Have those that disagreed have pensions?  is it a case of, "I'm alright jack!"  It does rather smack of the good olde days of the empire with our own punkhawallah  🙂

 

Apologies to those that disagree but in my goody two shoes world it is wrong  But please, let's not insult folks that have differing opinions.

 

Gratuities to me is a posh word for passengers subsidising agency staff pay 

[Peter Lanky]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, just like why are there no manufacturing jobs in the US, or shipyard workers who average 60 years of age?  Because no one will take the job for a wage that makes US items competitive with the rest of the world.  We are not talking about a European taking a cruise ship job for Indian wages.  What the poster is complaining about is that a US able seaman makes 3-4 times what an Indian able seaman makes, doing the same job, but on different ships.  I ask whether they expect to increase the Indian seaman's wage to US standard, or lower the US wage to Indian standards.  As I've said, over 80% of the world's economy goes by sea, utilizing those crew at Indian, Pilipino, and Indonesian wages.  How do you think prices of goods would fare if the wages were increased 4 fold.

Are there many cases of Western seamen and developing country seamen working on the same ship? I don't know the answer, but every news item I read suggests they crew comes from a single country, or one or more developing countries. However, I can't see that it makes as large a difference as land based manufacturing, as the crew complement tends to be very small on these cargo ships, and compared with the value of the cargo, must be almost insignificant. As I say, this is me thinking out loud and not presenting what I say as gospel.

 

I think though, we may have moved a long way from tipping on cruise ships, where the situation is completely different.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, glojo said:

Apologies to those that disagree but in my goody two shoes world it is wrong  But please, let's not insult folks that have differing opinions.

Where have there been insults to anyone's opinion in this thread?  It almost seems that anyone who doesn't agree with you is insulting you.

 

1 hour ago, glojo said:

they have no employment protection, no sick pay, and I just could not believe that after working for one agency (and one cruise line) for thirty years they were simply cast adrift.

Question.  Does anyone in their home country have any of these things you mention?  Nope.  With the money the crew makes while working, they can save for the lean times, or they can spend it now, the choice is theirs.  

1 hour ago, glojo said:

Have those that disagreed have pensions?  is it a case of, "I'm alright jack!"  It does rather smack of the good olde days of the empire with our own punkhawallah

I have earned a pension for my time at sea, but that is because the unions have negotiated to take less pay raises over the decades in favor of funding a pension.  Why can't the crewing agency do this?  Almost no seafarers outside of North America and Western Europe have any pensions, or any other benefits.  And, again, the government of those nations where the crew come from, also are signatory to the Maritime Labor Convention, and agreed to the minimum wage figure.

 

I don't agree that it is the West's "burden" to improve the lot of every nation on the planet, especially if their government doesn't care.  And I also don't feel it is the US's mission to "nation build" everywhere in the world.  Aid, and humanitarian support, sure, but do we prop up every economy to our standards?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

as the crew complement tends to be very small on these cargo ships, and compared with the value of the cargo, must be almost insignificant

What exactly does the value of the cargo have to do with crew pay?  Does the shipping company get paid by the value of the cargo?  No, they get paid to transport a commodity, any commodity, from point A to point B for a fixed price.  It doesn't matter if it is 20 tons of manure or 20 tons of gold, the freight is the same.  Crewing expense is a major cost for the shipping companies, more so for those who employ crew from Western countries.