Will Viking ever end daily Covid testing?

[Mich3554]

3 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

AFAIK antigen testing eliminates the dead virus false positive problem  that NAAT poses.

Nope.  A virus consists of a protein coat, which is what the antigen testing looks for, and mRNA.  When a virus is destroyed, the protein coat is shed, just like mRNA.  

[Mich3554]

9 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Well, as a mathematician who spent many years working as an actuary among other things, I'm not sure I buy in to all your observations. I'm not disputing that the elderly often do not mount as strong an immune system response as younger people, but there have been suggestions in the data that the recent omicron variant-driven spike was not so much an issue with older but vaccinated persons, but rather with the younger population who have a much lower percentage of vaccination than the older cohort. The numbers for those who were seriously affected by omicron...those who were hospitalized and fatalities, don't seem to appear to support the theory of the lesser immune system response of the elderly was the big problem. From what I see the data cited by Pfizer in its application for a fourth jab for those 65 or over really appear to be limited and shaky. At a minimum there needs to be a lot research and data analysis. I certainly don't have access to sufficient detailed data but my professional gut instincts are raising a caution flag .

 

I fully understand that for cruise ship passengers the issue is different than just hospitalizations and mortality but should a cruise line be so concerned with what may very well amount to not much more than a garden-variety URI in the vaccinated ? Before COVID URIs and other infections such as Noro as well as food-borne illness would spread like wildfire on cruise ships. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but there certainly was never a level of preventative measures taken even remotely close to what is done in an attempt to arrest the spread of COVID.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.  If you take a population that averages 65 years old, and compare that to a population that is 35 years old, each equally vaccinated, the 65 year old age group is going to be more susceptible to break through infection as they do not have as robust an immune response.  As a result, if they do encounter the virus, they still can get sick.  I’m not even considering that this population has other risk factors (heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, etc.) at higher levels which increases their risk more.  
90% of those hospitalized were unvaccinated during omicron.  As the younger population was less vaccinated, you’d expect those numbers to be higher….which it was, as you observed.  
The inherent problem in Pfizer’s request for a 4th vaccination of the >65 is because while the scientists know this population is still at risk, it is more a defect of the elderly immune system that they need to find a work around for the Covid vaccine.  Repeatedly vaccinating with the same vaccine is questionable, but at this point it’s the best they have.

Unlike norovirus, if someone gets really sick of Covid while on board the facilities are not going to be sufficient to provide more advanced medical care they’d need.  

 

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, Mich3554 said:

Nope.  A virus consists of a protein coat, which is what the antigen testing looks for, and mRNA.  When a virus is destroyed, the protein coat is shed, just like mRNA.  

Everything I've read disagrees with you.

This isn't an article from a scientific journal, but it quotes a number of scientists who say antigen tests are not likely to produce a false positive :

https://www.phillyvoice.com/covid19-isolation-guidelines-positive-after-5-days-rapid-test-/

 

1 hour ago, Mich3554 said:

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

No,  you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say, but I'll plead guilty to a poor writing job.

[Squawkman]

FWIW, lare last year my daughter had a false positive from an antigen test, but then tested negative with PCR. She was told antigen false positives do happen less than false negatives - but they do happen more than one might think.

[downsmead]

21 hours ago, Mich3554 said:

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.  If you take a population that averages 65 years old, and compare that to a population that is 35 years old, each equally vaccinated, the 65 year old age group is going to be more susceptible to break through infection as they do not have as robust an immune response.  As a result, if they do encounter the virus, they still can get sick.  I’m not even considering that this population has other risk factors (heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, etc.) at higher levels which increases their risk more.  
90% of those hospitalized were unvaccinated during omicron.  As the younger population was less vaccinated, you’d expect those numbers to be higher….which it was, as you observed.  
The inherent problem in Pfizer’s request for a 4th vaccination of the >65 is because while the scientists know this population is still at risk, it is more a defect of the elderly immune system that they need to find a work around for the Covid vaccine.  Repeatedly vaccinating with the same vaccine is questionable, but at this point it’s the best they have.

Unlike norovirus, if someone gets really sick of Covid while on board the facilities are not going to be sufficient to provide more advanced medical care they’d need.  

 

Playing devils advocate - the medical facilities are not sufficient to cope with many medical problems but they still allow people to sail with heart conditions etc.  It seems that the criteria are set for the high risk passengers but as a result, all passengers are then ‘affected’ by the criteria. 

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, downsmead said:

Playing devils advocate - the medical facilities are not sufficient to cope with many medical problems but they still allow people to sail with heart conditions etc.  It seems that the criteria are set for the high risk passengers but as a result, all passengers are then ‘affected’ by the criteria. 

 

I certainly wouldn't agree the medical facilities are not sufficient to cope with many medical problems. The medical facilities on the Viking ships, as are most modern cruise ships, are more than adequate to deal with most emergency medical issues.

 

On Viking Sun, the doctor provided the final 8 of us a comprehensive tour of the medical facilities. They are equipped to handle 1 ICU patient comfortably, but have the facilities to handle 2 ICU patients at any time. This particular doctor was a highly experienced emergency phyician, who had led emergency departments in UK, USA, France & Italy. They have most, if not all, the modern equipment you would find in a local emergency room ashore.

 

They can provide the same level of emergency care as most major hospital emergency rooms ashore. With respect to heart conditions, they can monitor, treat with medications and perform cardioversions. However, similar to shoreside emergency rooms, if you required angioplasty or cardiac ablation, etc. you would be referred to a Cardiologist. Only difference onboard the ship is that requires a disembarkation.

 

The issue is they do not have adequate crewing for the provision of prolonged 24/7 care. This is one of the reasons why pax are sent ashore. How they deal with COVID issues is no different to how other medical issues are dealt with. If your illness could require hospitalisation, or surgery, then you are disembarked. 

[mhb1757]

Yes, they collect specimens on everyone, every day… but I’m not so sure they actually do the testing on every sample, every day. I strongly suspect they do a random group of samples every day but only actually test every sample on boarding, and perhaps prior to ending a cruise. If you read the provided information it says you must submit a sample daily and passengers will be PCR tested “up to daily”. 
Just saying! 

[downsmead]

26 minutes ago, mhb1757 said:

Yes, they collect specimens on everyone, every day… but I’m not so sure they actually do the testing on every sample, every day. I strongly suspect they do a random group of samples every day but only actually test every sample on boarding, and perhaps prior to ending a cruise. If you read the provided information it says you must submit a sample daily and passengers will be PCR tested “up to daily”. 
Just saying! 

I understand they do test all samples on board each day but batch them up in sets of 4. If a set of 4 shows a positive result, they then perform individual testing to see which one is the positive case. This allows them to get through the numbers involved.
 

[downsmead]

@Heidi13 thank you for your insight into the medical facilities, I bet it was a fascinating tour. 

[Heidi13]

8 minutes ago, downsmead said:

@Heidi13 thank you for your insight into the medical facilities, I bet it was a fascinating tour. 

 

Yes, most interesting, especially for DW who is a retired A&E Trauma RN.

[Jim Avery]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

I certainly wouldn't agree the medical facilities are not sufficient to cope with many medical problems. The medical facilities on the Viking ships, as are most modern cruise ships, are more than adequate to deal with most emergency medical issues.

 

On Viking Sun, the doctor provided the final 8 of us a comprehensive tour of the medical facilities. They are equipped to handle 1 ICU patient comfortably, but have the facilities to handle 2 ICU patients at any time. This particular doctor was a highly experienced emergency phyician, who had led emergency departments in UK, USA, France & Italy. They have most, if not all, the modern equipment you would find in a local emergency room ashore.

 

They can provide the same level of emergency care as most major hospital emergency rooms ashore. With respect to heart conditions, they can monitor, treat with medications and perform cardioversions. However, similar to shoreside emergency rooms, if you required angioplasty or cardiac ablation, etc. you would be referred to a Cardiologist. Only difference onboard the ship is that requires a disembarkation.

 

The issue is they do not have adequate crewing for the provision of prolonged 24/7 care. This is one of the reasons why pax are sent ashore. How they deal with COVID issues is no different to how other medical issues are dealt with. If your illness could require hospitalisation, or surgery, then you are disembarked. 

The main problem is constant testing of healthy people.  Sooner or later that will hit someone.

[Jim Avery]

48 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Yes, most interesting, especially for DW who is a retired A&E Trauma RN.

The medical facilities are great.  Much better than the morgue.....

[LisaDee]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:31 PM, zalusky said:

Are they waking you when you want to be sleeping or something.  are you not allowed to exit the morning stateroom untile you give them your vials?  Spitting in a tube once a day doesn't seem like much of a bother to me vs a lot of the other restrictions I have seen.

 

If we hadn’t left the cabin by 8:30am our stateroom attendant knocked on our door and asked for our samples (this was Feb 2022).  Some days I just feel like being lazy…sleeping in….or reading on the balcony…at the very least on my lazy mornings I’m in my PJs and don’t want to answer the door.  But I felt like we had to leave for breakfast every day by 8-ish or else track down the cabin attendant in the hallway to give them our vials.  If leaving the samples outside the cabin (for example, in a bag hanging on the door) had been an option, that would have been okay because I could have done that at night before bed but that option wasn’t offered.  Putting them on the floor outside the door seems unsanitary.  Maybe they could put collection baskets by the elevators or something so we can drop them off at the time that works for us?

[voyager23]

It would make sense for Viking to switch to nighttime collection when the mask policy changes. (or just phase it out). You figure why let people roam the ship all day potential spreading germs, only to find out later in the day they tested positive. Seems better to run the test at night with results before the wake up in the morning.

 

41 minutes ago, LisaDee said:

 

  If leaving the samples outside the cabin (for example, in a bag hanging on the door) had been an option, that would have been okay because I could have done that at night before bed but that option wasn’t offered.  Putting them on the floor outside the door seems unsanitary.  Maybe they could put collection baskets by the elevators or something so we can drop them off at the time that works for us?

 

I agree, this would be better option for vacation schedule. Although in general the whole daily collection process does remind one of a certain Carnival Cruise a while back...

[Jammy Bun]

5 hours ago, LisaDee said:

 

  If leaving the samples outside the cabin (for example, in a bag hanging on the door) had been an option, that would have been okay because I could have done that at night before bed but that option wasn’t offered.  Putting them on the floor outside the door seems unsanitary.  Maybe they could put collection baskets by the elevators or something so we can drop them off at the time that works for us?

We were onboard for 3 weeks Dec21/Jan22 and were asked to hand in our samples by 8am.  We left them propped up in the corner of our doorway.  They're in plastic bags.  It never crossed my mind that it was unsanitary!  

[sleepybobo]

Perhaps those of us who want Viking to end daily testing can write to Viking to express our concerns?  Spitting into a tube every morning is no big deal.  But the worry about being tested positive took away some joy of cruising.  I actually decided to postpone my next Viking cruise to next year hoping daily testing will end by then.  

 

Breakthrough cases happen often.  There are surges in Omicron BA2 cases in Europe, but Viking is making mask wearing optional.  It seems the odd of being infected is higher now.  

 

[rizello]

it could be that gathering samples at night would be more challenging because most people probably have had something to drink before ending the evening.  In the morning, most people have not had anything to drink as they wake up.  The saliva samples require abstinence from imbibing liquids before doing the sample, as I understand it.

 

It seems that if they want to continue the testing, just switch to rapid antigen.  so much easier.

 

 

[voyager23]

The daily testing seems misaligned with the rest of the world. The fact that airlines and airports in Europe are starting to go mask free is such a contrast. I appreciate the prior caution, but Viking has got to be the only organization in the cruise industry that tests so frequently. Even most hospital or medical lab workers are only tested weekly. Also the fact saliva test aren't accepted at some destinations, makes the destination requirement not that valid of reason to continue. 

[Twitchly]

48 minutes ago, voyager23 said:

The daily testing seems misaligned with the rest of the world. The fact that airlines and airports in Europe are starting to go mask free is such a contrast. I appreciate the prior caution, but Viking has got to be the only organization in the cruise industry that tests so frequently. Even most hospital or medical lab workers are only tested weekly. Also the fact saliva test aren't accepted at some destinations, makes the destination requirement not that valid of reason to continue. 

Actually, DH works at a hospital, where he sees Covid patients with some frequency, and none of the staff are tested for Covid anymore. 

[uktog]

Given the relaxation of rules in the UK which goes hand in hand with a massive scale down of testing (limited to cases with symptoms) I suspect Viking will see more asymptomatic cases in their upcoming UK itinerary. There level of testing is doesn’t reflect living with covid which is the strategy in the countries they are visiting 

[Louise257]

8 hours ago, uktog said:

Given the relaxation of rules in the UK which goes hand in hand with a massive scale down of testing (limited to cases with symptoms) I suspect Viking will see more asymptomatic cases in their upcoming UK itinerary. There level of testing is doesn’t reflect living with covid which is the strategy in the countries they are visiting 

In Scotland last week it is estimated that 1 in 11 had covid. It is difficult to see how there will not be an increase in cases on board too. Is there any way to find out the number of passengers in quarantine on each ship?

[uktog]

6 minutes ago, Louise257 said:

In Scotland last week it is estimated that 1 in 11 had covid. It is difficult to see how there will not be an increase in cases on board too. Is there any way to find out the number of passengers in quarantine on each ship?

They won’t tell you - other lines do

[longterm]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:05 PM, basenji56 said:

I see that Viking is loosening up on mask requirements.

 

Does anyone think Viking will ever end the daily shipboard Covid testing? (I’m not talking about the testing needed to board the ship.)

 

They'll eliminate testing when it's time.

 

It's not yet time, but hopefully will be soon.It's not a big deal, takes all of 3 minutes. 

[longterm]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:00 AM, Squawkman said:

FWIW, lare last year my daughter had a false positive from an antigen test, but then tested negative with PCR. She was told antigen false positives do happen less than false negatives - but they do happen more than one might think.

The daily tests that Viking does onboard are PCR tests, not antigen tests.

[CCWineLover]

1 hour ago, Louise257 said:

In Scotland last week it is estimated that 1 in 11 had covid. It is difficult to see how there will not be an increase in cases on board too. Is there any way to find out the number of passengers in quarantine on each ship?

On Orion now.  They called 7 or 8 people the first night while we were eating At Manfredis.  We were still docked in Fort Lauderdale.  (Wednesday). There are 760 on board so that’s about 1 in 11.

whether they are off the ship or in quarantine we don’t know