Europe's Drought Could Signal the Death of River Cruising

[gnome12]

An article from CNN

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/europe-drought-river-cruising/index.html

[Canal archive]

Just a large pinch of salt for this article for instance yes the source of the Thames has moved but not for the first time as any local will tell you. Yes there is a lot of drought and the effect on the barge traffic in particular is absolutely awful, we use the rivers and canals for our holidays they rely on them for their livelihoods so please no scaremongering.

[notamermaid]

Mixed feelings about this article. As always with CNN. Click bait headline with a photo of the Loire where only a few ships sail as the river is so shallow that it has never been used for proper river cruise ships. CroisiEurope made a special Loire ship only a few years ago...

 

A few more comments coming perhaps tomorrow.

 

notamermaid

 

 

[steamboats]

Quoting a travel agent about retractable pilot houses and rails which help to get under bridges with high water didn´t really convince me of this article either. Sorry folks, but retractable pilot houses and rails are needed on some parts of the river system (Moselle river, Canal) even when there is a regular body of water because the bridges are low there.

 

The Po river hasn´t been really navigable for years now. Even with a regular body of water the river cruise ships only have a couple of hours of scenic cruising on the Po river and basically stay in the lagoon of Venice. The Elbe river has no lock and dam system on the German part and therefore is always a hit and miss during summer and low water season.

 

Emptying a "pool" of a river cruise ship... hmm, if there is a pool it´s usually not much bigger than a whirl pool. Not that much weight to lose by emptying. Ballast tanks might help more. I remember that more than once a ship was going empty with passengers to pass a certain stretch of a river. The passengers and all non essential crew were bussed.

 

steamboats

[Canal archive]

Sorry to you journalist’s out there but this is ‘sloppy’ journalism there has been to much of it recently, no in depth research, no talking to locals, why! because they get paid whatever is written. We want the truth not supposition by someone who has no idea of what is actually happening.

[notamermaid]

2 hours ago, Canal archive said:

but this is ‘sloppy’ journalism there has been to much of it recently, no in depth research, no talking to locals,

They sit in an office in the US. Have they ever even been near a European river one wonders...

 

I am not saying hail to thee BBC, but give me Jenny Hill standing at the Mouse Tower anytime!

 

19 hours ago, Canal archive said:

please no scaremongering.

Several people on the rivers and also experts on river topics have expressed here in interviews and video footage that it is just trying to create panic saying that river traffic will cease.

 

Quote from the article: "In fact, Weeden believes that Rhine cruises "will be a thing of the past" before too long."

I believe punishment for such a believe should be sausage and cheap apple juice on an excursion boat from now till the end of the season everyday and sleeping on a bench in the lounge. The excursion boats are still sailing, so are the small Dutch river cruise ships. Ha!!

 

notamermaid

 

[ljandgb]

I'm no expert on European rivers, but the title alone is clickbait.  Puts the rest of the article in the "dubious" category for me.

[Host Jazzbeau]

Do you think that these conditions, which may become more the norm in future, will lead to move back to 110m designs?  It's been apparent for several years that the 135m ships have more difficulties sooner and longer.

[notamermaid]

We can all but speculate. I have been wondering this since the drought of 2018. Will companies react? I mean commercial traffic is building and buying flatter ships for the Rhine.

 

I have my doubts about Viking doing anything in that direction, having just swamped the market with 135m ships. Their ship swaps work so well so all is good for them I would say. Will Amawaterways invest in another ship that is smaller? Who knows? Not even Phoenix Reisen decided to go for a 110m ship. The latest one is 135m again. Both Tauck and Avalonwaterways have mixed fleets, Amawaterways also has some older smaller ships still.

 

I know the mould, the blueprint and the financial aspects are for 135m ships but if you want to gain plus points with customers not wanting ship swaps there is much to gain by going smaller. And we are getting more informed, aren't we? We know so much more than we did before the drought shock of 2018 hit us here on CC and on the rivers.

 

Wonder what you folks, especially in the US, think?

 

notamermaid

 

[ljandgb]

Personally, I prefer smaller ships.  I'm not a crowd person, and really don't even need the spa, hot tub, chef's table, etc.

 

I definitely prefer staying on one ship as opposed to ship-hopping.  That's the whole appeal of a river cruise - not having to change hotels over and over.

 

A good friend of mine is on the Rhine with Viking now.  It's his first river cruise.  I'm interested to see what he thinks when he returns.

Edited August 15, 2022 by ljandgb

[notamermaid]

10 minutes ago, ljandgb said:

A good friend of mine is on the Rhine with Viking now.  It's his first river cruise.  I'm interested to see what he thinks when he returns.

I hope he has a good time.

 

Could be an interesting question to ask those that are put off by their recent experiences, meaning those that have returned from 135m ships with coach trip, etc.: "Would you sail again, on a smaller ship, if that far reduced the likelihood of a ship swap?"

 

The ship I sailed on, the MS Belvedere, is 126.7m. A classic "inbetweener". To me she looked big and felt spacious. Admittedly, she was only two thirds full. Downscaled to 110m with adjusted passenger count and then hopefully not fully booked I would have no problems sailing on a smaller ship. First thing to go due to lack of space are usually gym and hair salon. I do not need either. The Belvedere had a gym.

 

notamermaid

 

[Haqdeluxe]

3 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

I hope he has a good time.

 

Could be an interesting question to ask those that are put off by their recent experiences, meaning those that have returned from 135m ships with coach trip, etc.: "Would you sail again, on a smaller ship, if that far reduced the likelihood of a ship swap?"

 

The ship I sailed on, the MS Belvedere, is 126.7m. A classic "inbetweener". To me she looked big and felt spacious. Admittedly, she was only two thirds full. Downscaled to 110m with adjusted passenger count and then hopefully not fully booked I would have no problems sailing on a smaller ship. First thing to go due to lack of space are usually gym and hair salon. I do not need either. The Belvedere had a gym.

 

notamermaid

 

After nearly a dozen sailings on Viking Longships (135m) we sailed the new Viking Radgrid (110m) this past March. With the way Viking has configured (shortened) this new ship the changes are nearly unprecieveable. If anything, with the lower number of pax on board, things feel more intimate without feeling crowded. Of course a Viking Longship doesn't have some of the amenities that some other ships (Scenic) would lose if shortened so for us they were not there to miss. 

[Canal archive]

Scenic Azure on the Douro is 80 metres long passengers 96 but of all Scenics European fleet I prefer Scenic Gem 110 metres passengers 110 and she cruises the Seine. No pool on Gem, no salt therapy lounge and no culinaire but just about everything else.

[Coral]

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

We can all but speculate. I have been wondering this since the drought of 2018. Will companies react? I mean commercial traffic is building and buying flatter ships for the Rhine.

 

I have my doubts about Viking doing anything in that direction, having just swamped the market with 135m ships. Their ship swaps work so well so all is good for them I would say.

 

Though my friends who have been on ships where they have had to swap ships - they hated the trip. It turned into more of a bus trip and they lost significant time in ports.

 

So they may call it a success but my friends will never sail with them again. Though Viking definitely is not lacking for passengers. They can easily be replaced.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Coral

[loge23]

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

 

 

I know the mould, the blueprint and the financial aspects are for 135m ships but if you want to gain plus points with customers not wanting ship swaps there is much to gain by going smaller. And we are getting more informed, aren't we? We know so much more than we did before the drought shock of 2018 hit us here on CC and on the rivers.

 

Wonder what you folks, especially in the US, think?

 

notamermaid

 

This will ultimately be a operational decision. If the river conditions warrant, then the ships will become smaller. The current Viking fleet was built for the market - more people are river cruising, thus longer ships. The river cruise industry has been exploding in the last decade, 2020 notwithstanding. It can use a bit of a cool down period. We did an independent land tour on the Rhine and Moselle in the late 90's. There weren't any commercial river cruise ships as I recall - it was all the KD ships, day cruising. Then Viking brought KD, and their docks, and that changed everything. 

It's difficult to predict the weather conditions going forward, but if the trend towards drier conditions continues, it will bring the river cruise industry to a screeching halt (although not quite as dire as the CNN article, imo). Personally, I'm hoping for snowy winters and plenty of spring rain, but I'm being optimistic. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, Canal archive said:

Scenic Azure on the Douro is 80 metres long passengers 96 but of all Scenics European fleet I prefer Scenic Gem 110 metres passengers 110 and she cruises the Seine. No pool on Gem, no salt therapy lounge and no culinaire but just about everything else.

I agree that Scenic Gem is a wonderful ship.  Its design was mandatory for that itinerary, in order to be able to dock in Honfleur – but the concept would work anywhere.

 

Otherwise it is harder to make a valid comparison, because most of the 110m ships are older than the 135m designs [e.g. AMA] and thus seem dated.  The real question is what an upscale line could do with a blank sheet of paper at 110m ['upscale' because they have fewer passengers per ship].

 

[SometimesCruiser]

24 minutes ago, Coral said:

Though Viking definitely is not lacking for passengers. They can easily be replaced.

 

If the daily testing mandates and the possibility of being whisked off the ship into quarantine at any time didn't drive their customers away, I doubt the possibility of ship swaps would register.

[Canal archive]

Jazz several of the Scenic fleet had a complete makeover a few years ago they were the ones with the culinaire addition.

[notamermaid]

3 hours ago, loge23 said:

Then Viking brought KD, and their docks, and that changed everything. 

Viking bought the KD river cruise ships with a German bank grant, yup. The big change indeed. Mr. Hagen was in the right place at the right time.

 

There were few river cruise ships in the 80's. It gathered pace in the 90's. The ships tended to get bigger. The interest grew. The foreign source markets grew. The rest is history.

 

One company which watched it all happen and from the beginning had done their own thing, growing slowly and steadily into the European company with the biggest fleet, to this day only uses 110m ships maximum*: CroisiEurope. It is still the company with the widest choice of rivers and canals. The ships have no gym. The one I visited on an open day looked comfortable, I would not need more.

 

*a couple of coastal ships excepted.

 

notamermaid

 

 

[Coral]

8 hours ago, ljandgb said:

Personally, I prefer smaller ships.  I'm not a crowd person, and really don't even need the spa, hot tub, chef's table, etc.

 

I definitely prefer staying on one ship as opposed to ship-hopping.  That's the whole appeal of a river cruise - not having to change hotels over and over.

 

A good friend of mine is on the Rhine with Viking now.  It's his first river cruise.  I'm interested to see what he thinks when he returns.

I have a friend on the Rhine also (Viking) - it is their first river cruise also. It will be interesting.

[ofbp Walt]

We just returned from the Budapest-Regensburg river cruise on Aug 6th. Regensburg was not accessible, so we docked in Austria in Wesenflau, and took a two hour bus ride to Regensberg (well worth it, I'd add).  No other itinerary change was needed, aside from disembarking in Wesenflau.

One minor sore point, however was the preponderance of empty Viking ships; either waiting for swaps, or what ever.  Most of our dockings ended up with 3 ships parked side by side, and passengers trouping through the mezzanines to get to their boat.  It was disappointing to throw open the curtains in the morning to enjoy the river view, and instead, seeing a man on his balcony looking back at us...

[Coral]

20 minutes ago, ofbp Walt said:

One minor sore point, however was the preponderance of empty Viking ships; either waiting for swaps, or what ever.  Most of our dockings ended up with 3 ships parked side by side, and passengers trouping through the mezzanines to get to their boat.  It was disappointing to throw open the curtains in the morning to enjoy the river view, and instead, seeing a man on his balcony looking back at us...

This is pretty common. It is called rafting and has been going on for years. It happens when the ships are full also. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Coral

[CPT Trips]

There were overnight passenger cruises in the Rhein in 1972. My parents took a river cruise (KD?) Köln to Aschaffenburg. I don’t recall the itinerary, only that it was several nights; perhaps it also cruised the Mosel. 

[Canal archive]

Rafting in the rest of Europe, ‘Breasting up’ in the U.K. look on it as an opportunity to make friends with your opposite numbers and if it’s a different company have a sneaky peak at their cabin an visa versa. It’s only happened to us a few times in over ten years of cruising but have nearly lost a wine glass or two a couple of times.

[ural guy]

The only thing I'd miss going from the 135 m ship to a smaller one is the second dining area.  I can't do to many two hours meals in a room with a low ceiling and all the people talking means I can't hear anyone, smiling and nodding gets old after a bit.

 

I'd really like the flexibility the smaller ship would provide for different ports, smaller rivers.  With the increased popularity of cruising, it would be nice to spread the load out to other docking locations.  I mean, there has to be more than one glass blower to visit on the Main River...