Old HAL vs New HAL....or just HAL evolving

[CNSJ]

I (we) just reached 4 star Mariner on last cruise, so to many of you I am still a HAL newbie, but I thought I might comment on the non-stop bashing of Holland America.  Yes, things change over time.  Even in the short ten years we have been regular cruisers, I have seen change.  Some good, some not so good.  My DW and I just retired and are around 60. 

 

While little things like chocolates every night, slippers (most of us don't wear), and a well dressed man ringing dinner chimes may be important to many, I try to focus on the things that are most important (at least to me).  In these areas I think HAL has done very well, and continues to do well.  I try to keep in mind that the cruise industry just went through the once in a hundred years' shock with COVID.   I am confident that HAL does surveys and just just cut things willy nilly.  For those that complain about a charge for a second entree in the Pinnacle, I ask....What would your favorite restaurant at home do if you asked for two steaks?  Don't charge me more for my cruise because you want two appetizers and two nice steaks at dinner.  

 

To me, clean, safe ships with great service are the reasons I have sailed with HAL on 10 of my last 13 cruises.  I have sailed on R-class, Vista Class, Signature, Pinnacle Class.  Each has benefits over the others depending on what you are looking for.  I think Signature is the best overall due to the Promenade being more walkable. Otherwise Pinnacle class wins hands down. 

 

I'll focus on what's gotten better in the past ten years for a minute (at least in my opinion):

 

•       Much better Stateroom TV with on demand movies, interactive info, menus, and access to your account.
•      Pinnacle class ships with many more dining options and better venues for music events.
•      Room service still included for breakfast and most times (and you can order off MDR menu) - Celebrity and others charge for Room Service now all day. 
•      The Navigator app - Love it or hate it... its better than not having an App
•      A slightly younger passenger demographic is a good thing.  
•      Great ship's officers that still interact with passengers.
•      Hal is more eco-friendly (less plastic and paper) 
•      Great itineraries continue (and 2024 looks great in this area)
•      Onboard credit for shareholders and military/first responders
•      Cruises are still a great value.  I was in South Florida recently and looked at my restaurant receipts for lousy meals, including the "mandatory 20% gratuities added to all checks...."   I was shocked to see what I was paying before and after cruise.

 

I want to focus again on CLEAN, SAFE ships and GREAT SERVICE.  We did two Royal Caribbean Cruises mixed in our first five HAL cruises - all on similar sized ships (Jewel of the Seas) to HALs ships.  Cruise prices for a Balcony Cabin are similar in most cases based on my review.  My DW would rather not cruise than go on Royal Caribbean again.   The passenger to public space areas on HAL always feels better. 

 

Just my two cents..... I am very Happy with HAL.  Nothing is perfect, but CLEAN, SAFE SHIPS with GREAT SERVICE is what matters to us. 

 

Keep Cruising.  See you out there in 2023!

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by CNSJ
typo

[Mosaic]

Nice!

[CruiserBruce]

Totally agree @CNSJ!! But change is difficult for some.

[jimbob22]

we're newer to Hal than many, in that 45-50 demographic they probably want to reach.  Really pleased with our two cruises, both on Pinnacle ships.  Entertainment has been solid, food has been really good (good selection and good quality in what is available). I'm slim and I work out--but food is important to me.  I don't need any cruise line to serve me dinner entree meals that are like 300 calories (like the diet Carnival just put me on).

 

The app wouldn't install on my android phone at all. It's really poorly rated. So I think they need to improve that.

 

I'd like to see Rolling Stone evolve into not just covering 60s and 70s rock, but actually going up into the 90s.  In the late 90s, 'alternative rock' radio was popular (whfs in DC area, 99x in Atlanta, etc). I'd like to see them cover more 80s and the 90s stuff (which appeals to the 45-55 age demographic).

 

My wife would probably love to see some music/dance homage to the 'boy bands' of the 1990s.  So that's another thing that would reach a somewhat younger demographic (but I think people of all ages enjoy the music/dance shows).  

 

Really no complaints.  Great for families that don't feel like they need a full blown amusement park at sea.  There are probably families that spend the same money renting an airbnb at a beach for a week--and they still have to do all their cooking, get groceries, etc.  So we'll choose a cruise over that any time.

 

 

[Sir PMP]

13 minutes ago, jimbob22 said:

we're newer to Hal than many, in that 45-50 demographic they probably want to reach.  Really pleased with our two cruises, both on Pinnacle ships.  Entertainment has been solid, food has been really good (good selection and good quality in what is available). I'm slim and I work out--but food is important to me.  I don't need any cruise line to serve me dinner entree meals that are like 300 calories (like the diet Carnival just put me on).

 

The app wouldn't install on my android phone at all. It's really poorly rated. So I think they need to improve that.

 

I'd like to see Rolling Stone evolve into not just covering 60s and 70s rock, but actually going up into the 90s.  In the late 90s, 'alternative rock' radio was popular (whfs in DC area, 99x in Atlanta, etc). I'd like to see them cover more 80s and the 90s stuff (which appeals to the 45-55 age demographic).

 

My wife would probably love to see some music/dance homage to the 'boy bands' of the 1990s.  So that's another thing that would reach a somewhat younger demographic (but I think people of all ages enjoy the music/dance shows).  

 

Really no complaints.  Great for families that don't feel like they need a full blown amusement park at sea.  There are probably families that spend the same money renting an airbnb at a beach for a week--and they still have to do all their cooking, get groceries, etc.  So we'll choose a cruise over that any time.

 

 

We can use some rap too:

 

[REOVA]

Fair assessments and we also don't mind the little changes they no longer do. (And we prefer Signature over Pinnacle classes and if Dutch Cafe is added we probably would not sail on Pinnacle class 🤣). Our first time on KDam ship (2019) we noticed a difference in service and staff from the smaller ships. They were (and are) overwhelmed and it shows. Whether HAL planned a smaller crew to passenger ratio (and then got double whammy with shutdown and lack of returning crew) is a reason, it would appear they would have pulled things together after so many cruises by now. We know management changes both within HAL and CCL usually changes things so will have to see if any difference is made but for short term, we don't expect anything that causes expenses to rise to be added in the next 2 years (without add 2x revenue generation).

 

The big issue has been the entertainment. The Music Walk - while providing options for music/bar venue (until BB King and Lincoln Stage goes away) is not a replacement for the shows HAL used to have. Especially the redundancy if on a ship longer than 7 days. I have many venues at home to watch bands and drink, not my idea of vacation. I cruise for itineraries and visiting new Countries, people and destinations so not hard to enjoy being on the water waiting for next destination.

 

Many of the changes were done (or planned) pre Covid and we've heard complaints even before 2020.   It appears Carnivalization crept in by thinking providing more bars and music will make its mariners happy and hopefully they will rethink when new ship orders go out. CCL has many cruise lines to make each distinct and unique and hopefully their "new" marketing of longer itineraries will bring back some of what HAL had. 🤞🤞

[jimbob22]

1 hour ago, Sir PMP said:

We can use some rap too:

 

beastie boys would be good.

[robotpony]

3 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

We can use some rap too:

 

The Rolling Stone band performed exactly 1 rap song on our Nov/December cruise (an alternative version of a song they were already rotating through their list). The group in the room seemed to enjoy it.

[Mary229]

I don’t know.  Maybe the classic model of cruising began when people didn’t t live in urban areas with lots of entertainment and dining choices nor satellite media.   It is a new age.  I can visit fine dining at a reasonable price every night, I can go to 6 or 7 different live entertainment venues, I can go to cooking demonstrations, all at home.  I can also enjoy the very finest performers the world has to offer from the comfort of my home.   
 

I think there was a day when the cruise ship was not only your hotel, it may have been a unique opportunity for fine dining and perhaps your yearly opportunity to see theater or live music.    I think now that people so have access year round the lines may be evolving from this all inclusive entertainment model.

 

HAL has announced they want to focus on the long, exotic cruise .  I assume this also signals they are going to focus on catering to the traveler than the resort seeker.  Maybe that is what they are trying, a hybridized mid-market expedition format.  
 

On  the smallest of ships that populate the high end and the expedition markets  entertainment and food options are very limited yet they are very popular among their clientele. 

[REOVA]

17 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I don’t know.  Maybe the classic model of cruising began when people didn’t t live in urban areas with lots of entertainment and dining choices nor satellite media.   It is a new age.  I can visit fine dining at a reasonable price every night, I can go to 6 or 7 different live entertainment venues, I can go to cooking demonstrations, all at home.  I can also enjoy the very finest performers the world has to offer from the comfort of my home.   
 

I think there was a day when the cruise ship was not only your hotel, it may have been a unique opportunity for fine dining and perhaps your yearly opportunity to see theater or live music.    I think now that people so have access year round the lines may be evolving from this all inclusive entertainment model.

 

HAL has announced they want to focus on the long, exotic cruise .  I assume this also signals they are going to focus on catering to the traveler than the resort seeker.  Maybe that is what they are trying, a hybridized mid-market expedition format.  
 

On  the smallest of ships that populate the high end and the expedition markets  entertainment and food options are very limited yet they are very popular among their clientele. 

Yes. We are Travelers/cruisers not necessarily Vacationers (although they are not necessarily mutually exclusive). HAL lost its way over the years. From the music that used to be by the pool (and removed because people complained because they wanted quiet) to Music Walk (throw in 3 or 4 various music venues within 100 feet of each other and you now have music). They haven't been consistent to be able to be defined, except that now they have limited shows, food decline or experimenting with various music to become "hip-er . They definitely need to appeal to a younger (maybe different) passenger as we age out, but not by hard transition. 

 

They may be able to make the Pinnacle ships a different niche than the smaller ships and hopefully will offer different activities on each "niche". Those that want the short to medium cruises in Caribbean, Alaska (or wherever) without the amusement park can sail Pinnacle. Those that want the Ocean Liner appeal or relaxed,  longer and unique travel can have the option of the smaller ships (and hopefully some new ones come in fleet). 

 

But if the longer itineraries are just the same onboard activities as other shorter itineraries (i.e. Pinnacle vs Signature). It's going to be tough sailing with them if other lines go to the same ports and offer port talks or special guests. We'd rather sail a port with a different line than seeing Step One, Cantare or a HAL history presentation for the nth time. 

[Florida_gal_50]

I don't recall anyone complaining about being charged for a second entree at the pinnacle never mind non stop.  I guess I've missed a lot of posts.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Florida_gal_50

[CNSJ]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I don’t know.  Maybe the classic model of cruising began when people didn’t t live in urban areas with lots of entertainment and dining choices nor satellite media.   It is a new age.  I can visit fine dining at a reasonable price every night, I can go to 6 or 7 different live entertainment venues, I can go to cooking demonstrations, all at home.  I can also enjoy the very finest performers the world has to offer from the comfort of my home.   
 

I think there was a day when the cruise ship was not only your hotel, it may have been a unique opportunity for fine dining and perhaps your yearly opportunity to see theater or live music.    I think now that people so have access year round the lines may be evolving from this all inclusive entertainment model.

 

HAL has announced they want to focus on the long, exotic cruise .  I assume this also signals they are going to focus on catering to the traveler than the resort seeker.  Maybe that is what they are trying, a hybridized mid-market expedition format.  
 

On  the smallest of ships that populate the high end and the expedition markets  entertainment and food options are very limited yet they are very popular among their clientele. 

Mary-

Your point on focusing on Travelers seems to be spot on.  We travel to see places, eat foods, and meet people.  Learn about other cultures.  I think that diverse itineraries are the key.  That can help HAL differentiate themselves from other cruise lines.  Perhaps it means a smaller HAL.  We shall see.  I think the market is big enough for 10-11 ships.  The "exotic/unique" itineraries like Voyage of the Vikings tend to sell out quickly......

 

[iflyrc5]

4 hours ago, jimbob22 said:

 

The app wouldn't install on my android phone at all. It's really poorly rated. So I think they need to improve that.

 

The Navigator App will not install on Android phones with older versions of software.  My phone has Android Version 10 and loaded and works fine.  It could have some improvements but overall is very useful when on board.  Use it to order dive in burgers and NY pizza without getting in lines.

 

 

 

[Mary229]

23 minutes ago, REOVA said:

guests. We'd rather sail a port with a different line than seeing Step One, Cantare or a HAL history presentation for the nth time. 

I agree.  My best cruises with HAL had strong enrichment programs and itinerary-topical entertainment with both local entertainers and regional indie movies.  I am certain these activities are less expensive as many lecturers will offer their services for accommodation.  However it requires in house personnel to plan such programs.  The easy route HAL chose in the past few years are these branded canned performances, hence we have Lincoln Center, BB king, Rolling Stone, Oprah and America’s test kitchen.  I say quit paying the licensing fees and hire a staff dedicated to developing enrichment programs that match the itinerary.  I don’t need a resort on sail, I want an epic journey. 

[LocoLoco1]

My music tastes won’t be changing much. With that said, because a cruiseline parent company like CCL that offers Uber luxe 5-star experiences, amusement parks and on down to bare bones sailings, they will probably have something for me. Insofar as Mick Jagger is nearing 80 and I’m not far behind, I suspect the Millennials will eventually force music entertainment changes not to my liking. When that happens I’ll be happily in bed by 8 with my iTunes earbuds. 

[REOVA]

1 minute ago, LocoLoco1 said:

My music tastes won’t be changing much. With that said, because a cruiseline parent company like CCL that offers Uber luxe 5-star experiences, amusement parks and on down to bare bones sailings, they will probably have something for me. Insofar as Mick Jagger is nearing 80 and I’m not far behind, I suspect the Millennials will eventually force music entertainment changes not to my liking. When that happens I’ll be happily in bed by 8 with my iTunes earbuds. 

Does ITunes make hearing aid buds yet? 🤔 

[REOVA]

5 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I agree.  My best cruises with HAL had strong enrichment programs and itinerary-topical entertainment with both local entertainers and regional indie movies.  I am certain these activities are less expensive as many lecturers will offer their services for accommodation.  However it requires in house personnel to plan such programs.  The easy route HAL chose in the past few years are these branded canned performances, hence we have Lincoln Center, BB king, Rolling Stone, Oprah and America’s test kitchen.  I say quit paying the licensing fees and hire a staff dedicated to developing enrichment programs that match the itinerary.  I don’t need a resort on sail, I want an epic journey. 

They used to have those personnel but got rid of them (or combined the title and kept the duties at Corp). And Oprah probably was disappointed as Godmother of a ship with no library. 😁

[cruisemom42]

My concern is this. HAL's recent history is littered with big commitments to a single area (such as "music" rather than broader-based entertainment). Now the "flavor du jour" appears to be longer voyages. And while I applaud (loudly) that decision, it's a decision that by itself is not going to be enough to change HAL's trajectory and attract younger passengers, in the long run.

 

Unlike the OP, I have a somewhat higher bar when I invest my vacation dollars than simply clean, safe ships with great service. That would be the lowest common  denominator -- but a line should offer more. HAL used to have a tagline of "Savour the journey".  That's aspirational and speaks to travel, wonderful experiences, flavors -- things you're going to come home and excitedly tell others about.

 

Which of us really wants to return home from a cruise and when someone asks how it was, reply, "Well it was clean and safe." You can be pretty sure that will not attract the next generation of cruisers. They are all about moments and experiences. According to one set of statistics, millennial travelers are more likely to seek out "destinations that have historical or cultural importance."  If HAL could push this idea of longer voyages to a fully fleshed out "3-D" realization, they stand a chance. They need destination experts. They need menu items and cooking classes that reflect the region sailed. They need to bring more local performers onboard at ports and to offer things like food/market tours ashore.

 

[CNSJ]

4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

My concern is this. HAL's recent history is littered with big commitments to a single area (such as "music" rather than broader-based entertainment). Now the "flavor du jour" appears to be longer voyages. And while I applaud (loudly) that decision, it's a decision that by itself is not going to be enough to change HAL's trajectory and attract younger passengers, in the long run.

 

Unlike the OP, I have a somewhat higher bar when I invest my vacation dollars than simply clean, safe ships with great service. That would be the lowest common  denominator -- but a line should offer more. HAL used to have a tagline of "Savour the journey".  That's aspirational and speaks to travel, wonderful experiences, flavors -- things you're going to come home and excitedly tell others about.

 

Which of us really wants to return home from a cruise and when someone asks how it was, reply, "Well it was clean and safe." You can be pretty sure that will not attract the next generation of cruisers. They are all about moments and experiences. According to one set of statistics, millennial travelers are more likely to seek out "destinations that have historical or cultural importance."  If HAL could push this idea of longer voyages to a fully fleshed out "3-D" realization, they stand a chance. They need destination experts. They need menu items and cooking classes that reflect the region sailed. They need to bring more local performers onboard at ports and to offer things like food/market tours ashore.

 

Agree that HAL can do more.  I am willing to pay 10-20% more for experts and a cultural immersion.  Not sure who else may be.  

 

My original point on clean, safe, and service is that other lines don't have same level of service... and that as Netherlands registered ships, they are safe.  Having spent a few decades in the Nav, I believe that Hal's maintenance is better than I have seen on other lines.  

[cruisemom42]

3 minutes ago, CNSJ said:

Agree that HAL can do more.  I am willing to pay 10-20% more for experts and a cultural immersion.  Not sure who else may be.  

 

My original point on clean, safe, and service is that other lines don't have same level of service... and that as Netherlands registered ships, they are safe.  Having spent a few decades in the Nav, I believe that Hal's maintenance is better than I have seen on other lines.  

 

Looking at how HAL already charges a higher per diem for special trips (like Voyage of the Vikings), I'm willing to bet there's enough niche travelers who would pay a bit more for an elevated experience on these special trips.

 

I've been cruising for 50 years and while I agree HAL is safe, all lines are heavily regulated and inspected regularly. HAL, too, has had some periods where routine interior maintenance/refurbishment seems to have been deferred, nothing that would decrease safety perhaps but...

 

I also am not sure I'd say HAL's officers are particularly keen or visible when it comes to interacting with passengers --- unless things have changed post-COVID.  I really noticed a difference when I started sailing more on Celebrity, where officers are particularly visible all around the ship and are very willing to engage with passengers.

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

My concern is this. HAL's recent history is littered with big commitments to a single area (such as "music" rather than broader-based entertainment). Now the "flavor du jour" appears to be longer voyages. And while I applaud (loudly) that decision, it's a decision that by itself is not going to be enough to change HAL's trajectory and attract younger passengers, in the long run.

 

Unlike the OP, I have a somewhat higher bar when I invest my vacation dollars than simply clean, safe ships with great service. That would be the lowest common  denominator -- but a line should offer more. HAL used to have a tagline of "Savour the journey".  That's aspirational and speaks to travel, wonderful experiences, flavors -- things you're going to come home and excitedly tell others about.

 

Which of us really wants to return home from a cruise and when someone asks how it was, reply, "Well it was clean and safe." You can be pretty sure that will not attract the next generation of cruisers. They are all about moments and experiences. According to one set of statistics, millennial travelers are more likely to seek out "destinations that have historical or cultural importance."  If HAL could push this idea of longer voyages to a fully fleshed out "3-D" realization, they stand a chance. They need destination experts. They need menu items and cooking classes that reflect the region sailed. They need to bring more local performers onboard at ports and to offer things like food/market tours ashore.

 

 

I wish I could "like" this post a dozen times!

 

If they're going to have unusual, longer itineraries, they need to develop experiences to go along with that. I was fortunate to do one of the hands-on cooking classes with a guest chef. She had a varied resume, but one of her "past lives" had been running her own restaurant in the Caribbean. Perfect experience for a Caribbean cruise! 

 

Of course, this requires some time and THOUGHT at the corporate level, so who knows what will happen. 

 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

9 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

Of course, this requires some time and THOUGHT at the corporate level, so who knows what will happen.

 

That's the frustrating part. It requires thought and planning more than a large expenditure. HAL could implement it relatively cheaply. No marquee space needed, no "name brand" to license....

 

The EXC experience on the old Maasdam had me shaking my head. They had the kernel of an idea -- but then they go all out and get zodiacs which (given half a minute's thought) may not necessarily be the best fit with HAL's demographic. I understand they were not able to deploy them very often at any rate.

 

Instead of that "expense" they could have paid relatively small fees for local groups to come onboard and/or had someone to lead a book group on a book (or several books) related to the itinerary.

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by cruisemom42

[ski ww]

We also are "Travelers" we like the longer different itineraries we enjoy interesting guest speakers. We used to take in the late show every night, after which we would go up to the Crows Nest which had a live band & you could dance the night away. The couple of times I went down to the Music Walk it was loud, and the dueling piano were not that good. We used to go down & listen to Adagio every night before dinner.  Our last cruise in July, two weeks on the Oosterdam we went to the Main Stage three times.  Change will happen, some times it's for the better. We all react different, the older we get the more we miss the old ways, how often have we said/heard " it wasn't like this in the old days"  

[esimon]

11 hours ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

I don't recall anyone complaining about being charged for a second entree at the pinnacle never mind non stop.  I guess I've missed a lot of posts.

you certainly have - there are many of them -    CNSJ perfectly said !!!    Try asking for 2 appetizers for the price of one at ANY restaurant- LOL   people want something for nothing toooo often LOL

[Florida_gal_50]

1 hour ago, esimon said:

you certainly have - there are many of them -    CNSJ perfectly said !!!    Try asking for 2 appetizers for the price of one at ANY restaurant- LOL   people want something for nothing toooo often LOL

I’m not talking about appetizers.  Yes there have been many of them.  I have not seem any complaints about not being able to get two entrees.  The op specifically stated people complaining about not being able to  get two entrees.  Could you provide a link please if you’ve seen the complaint about two entrees? That said, I don’t think most people have paid thousands to eat at a restaurant per person.  I don’t see the relevance.  I certainly would not expect to get 2 steaks in the pinnacle.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Florida_gal_50