NCL Returns to Tradition Muster Drill, Will Royal Follow?

[Engineroom Snipe]

All I know is that when I get onboard, I will do as directed concerning muster requirements and will have no choice over the matter. No reason to fret over something that is out of my control. 😐

[alfaeric]

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm not saying that what happens while at the muster station is close to an actual emergency, that is where the "service industry" attitude takes over, and we don't want to tick off the passengers.  What is realistic for the passengers is having to get to your station while another thousand people are also trying to get to theirs.  Far different than a few individuals wandering in over hours while others enjoy the normal activities.

 

Sure, you could practice searching a cabin, while doing daily cleaning, but that is simply the mechanics of searching a cabin.  Then there is the sweeping back to the stairwells, checking for unusual things, like smoke, and reporting to the zone leader, who reports to the deck leader, who then directs the deck team to fold down one deck, and when they are all accounted for one deck down, if that deck is clear, then fold down another deck, keeping accountability for the crew involved as well.  The entire process involves dealing with the entire ship at one time.

 

The e-muster to me is the equivalent of the crew deciding when they want to report to their drill assignments, rather than having one fire drill that involves the entire organization. 

To me, the regular muster isn't that real- while everyone is there, the action isn't close to what would be happening.  Some show up really early, then they trickle in, and then a handful go after the 7-1 warning.  And it's the latter who happen to be the most realistic.  Let alone, hardly anyone is using the emergency paths which is normal for people in the forward or aft and are a long way from the stairs.

 

As for the other tasks- why can't that be regularly practiced?   They lower lifeboats every single week, so doing the reporting can be done at the same time.  There are constantly drills where the passengers are not part of, but happen all over the ship.  Do it then.  Can even do it more rigorous and direct people onto their own life boat that gets lowered into the sea.  

[chengkp75]

Most of the crew drills are done in areas that will impact the passengers the least.  When was the last time you saw a fire drill where the fire was in a passenger cabin?  Again, the attitude of don't disrupt the passengers is pretty foremost, until it gets real.  As I told another poster on another thread about this, the only way to have realistic training for the crew involved in the passenger muster would be to have all passengers disembark at the end of the cruise, get the cabins cleaned (so the crew is available), then have a passenger muster drill with no passengers onboard, and then allow passengers to embark.  If passengers don't want to be "training aids" (that poster's words) for the crew, they can just wait on the pier.

8 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Can even do it more rigorous and direct people onto their own life boat that gets lowered into the sea.  

You do not want to load a lifeboat and lower it to the water but once.  Doing this repeatedly is a recipe for disaster.  Lifeboats are designed to get a specific number of people from the ship to the water once.  Further, most of the crew are not assigned to the lifeboats.  And, the crew do practice going to their "abandon ship" stations, which doesn't happen even when the passengers are being loaded into the boats, the crew stay at their emergency stations.  Once the passengers, and all the boats are away, if the Captain decides to abandon ship, then the crew will be signaled and sent to their stations at the life rafts.

[alfaeric]

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

You do not want to load a lifeboat and lower it to the water but once.  Doing this repeatedly is a recipe for disaster.  Lifeboats are designed to get a specific number of people from the ship to the water once.  Further, most of the crew are not assigned to the lifeboats.  And, the crew do practice going to their "abandon ship" stations, which doesn't happen even when the passengers are being loaded into the boats, the crew stay at their emergency stations.  Once the passengers, and all the boats are away, if the Captain decides to abandon ship, then the crew will be signaled and sent to their stations at the life rafts.

Every cruise we've been on, one lifeboat was lowered into the water at some port.  So to say that lowering it more than once is a recipe for a disaster, that disaster has been cooking for decades.  

 

My point is to use that drill to work with a small part of the crew- like that specific muster station working to lower the specific boat.  

 

What I'm hearing here is that the biggest issue with the e-muster isn't the passengers, it's the crew.  Why can't they do specific drills once a week to make up for that?  I don't get it.  That's what training is exactly for.

If this isn't about the passengers, then deal with the people it's about.

[BirdTravels]

7 hours ago, vision14k said:

Norwegian Cruise Line has announced the end of the virtual or e-muster drill and will immediately return to the traditional safety briefing, will Royal Caribbean follow??  I sure hope not!  Fresh off Freedom and the e-muster was great!

 

59 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

To me, the regular muster isn't that real- while everyone is there, the action isn't close to what would be happening.  Some show up really early, then they trickle in, and then a handful go after the 7-1 warning. 

 

I hope that Royal returns to traditional musters as soon as possible. It ensure that everyone really knows where to go during a real emergency. Right now, we normally don't get close to our real muster station,,,, just someone in the hall scanning cards. 

 

It is realistic from the perspective that you will muster, you will sit,,, and sit,,, and sit,,, and will eventually be released. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by BirdTravels

[easyqueasy]

1 hour ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

All I know is that when I get onboard, I will do as directed concerning muster requirements and will have no choice over the matter. No reason to fret over something that is out of my control. 😐

I agree. And for the crew to train for muster drills for every cruise (2 nights, 3 nights, 4 nights, etc) is a lot of repetition . I don’t know anywhere else that trains so much if they do the full exercise.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Every cruise we've been on, one lifeboat was lowered into the water at some port.  So to say that lowering it more than once is a recipe for a disaster, that disaster has been cooking for decades.  

You missed the word "load" in my statement:  "You do not want to load a lifeboat and lower it to the water but once."  Every boat has to be lowered to the water and launched once a month, but it is not loaded with people.  Only the 3-4 crew needed to launch and retrieve the boat are risked in lowering.  And, yes, there have been many incidents of dropped boats, even unloaded, and injured and killed crew resulting.  So, the risk is minimized by minimizing the people involved.

13 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

My point is to use that drill to work with a small part of the crew- like that specific muster station working to lower the specific boat. 

The crew who supervise the muster station are not the crew who lower the boat.

 

15 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

What I'm hearing here is that the biggest issue with the e-muster isn't the passengers, it's the crew.  Why can't they do specific drills once a week to make up for that?  I don't get it.  That's what training is exactly for.

The issues with the e-muster are for the passengers as well as the crew.  Passengers do not get the training in getting to stations while a thousand others are doing the same.  Passengers also learn what it would be like to remain at muster stations, possibly for hours.  Remember, the muster is not about getting into the boats, it is about accountability, getting the passengers to limited number of controlled, safe locations, where they can be accounted for, and then searched for, it anyone is missing. 

Crew do not get the training in "herding the cats" with recalcitrant passengers (drill) that equate to panicked passengers (real emergency), nor in conducting a full search of the ship while it is completely empty (all at muster stations) of passengers.  Or, do you propose that during the cruise, they stop all services and search the ship, even when some passengers remain onboard in port?

21 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

If this isn't about the passengers, then deal with the people it's about.

It's about the passengers and crew working as a team to try to save the passengers' lives.  If passengers are not willing to give up less than an hour (0.5% of a 7 day cruise) to do safety training, then maybe the crew might not be willing to spend the hours weekly of unpaid training to save the passengers.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, easyqueasy said:

I agree. And for the crew to train for muster drills for every cruise (2 nights, 3 nights, 4 nights, etc) is a lot of repetition . I don’t know anywhere else that trains so much if they do the full exercise.

Anyone who works in emergency response will tell you that the more repetition in drills, the more it becomes "muscle memory" when the real thing happens.  Regardless of how much, or how realistically you train, each individual crew member never knows when the real thing happens, will they respond, or will they fail.  This is where "muscle memory" comes in, making the proper response a reflex action, without conscious thought.  As to comparing the training to some place else, where else are you in a situation where you have to deal with thousands of untrained people, in an enclosed "universe".  When a building on land catches fire, you get the people out first, and fight the fire second, because the people have a safe haven on the street outside the building.  On a ship, you need to get the people to a safe spot "in the building" since there is no safe haven "outside the building (ship)", and you need to control these people since they are still in the danger zone.

[alfaeric]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You missed the word "load" in my statement:  "You do not want to load a lifeboat and lower it to the water but once."  Every boat has to be lowered to the water and launched once a month, but it is not loaded with people.  Only the 3-4 crew needed to launch and retrieve the boat are risked in lowering.  And, yes, there have been many incidents of dropped boats, even unloaded, and injured and killed crew resulting.  So, the risk is minimized by minimizing the people involved.

The crew who supervise the muster station are not the crew who lower the boat.

 

The issues with the e-muster are for the passengers as well as the crew.  Passengers do not get the training in getting to stations while a thousand others are doing the same.  Passengers also learn what it would be like to remain at muster stations, possibly for hours.  Remember, the muster is not about getting into the boats, it is about accountability, getting the passengers to limited number of controlled, safe locations, where they can be accounted for, and then searched for, it anyone is missing. 

Crew do not get the training in "herding the cats" with recalcitrant passengers (drill) that equate to panicked passengers (real emergency), nor in conducting a full search of the ship while it is completely empty (all at muster stations) of passengers.  Or, do you propose that during the cruise, they stop all services and search the ship, even when some passengers remain onboard in port?

It's about the passengers and crew working as a team to try to save the passengers' lives.  If passengers are not willing to give up less than an hour (0.5% of a 7 day cruise) to do safety training, then maybe the crew might not be willing to spend the hours weekly of unpaid training to save the passengers.

FWIW, I didn't say load, either.  I pointed out that there is a lifeboat lowered in the water at least once a week.  And during that, part of the crew can be kept in so that they are drilled as well.  Somehow that part is being missed in my points.  

 

And I also pointed out that the "mass move to the muster stations" is not realistic, either.  It's done in spurts and does not at all include the natural panic that will happen in an emergency.

 

As for the crew getting paid- you are demanding that they work during the muster drill- so how is that different than if they do an alternate training during the week?  Time is time.  Boarding day is already the most hectic day for everyone, so moving some of that to another day is bad?  Makes no sense.

 

I get that you are very against the e-muster.  But at the same time, you don't seem to get that there are also limitations to the traditional muster that are almost exactly the same.  So if they are going back the the real muster- then use the emergency stairs, enforce real phone stops, don't let people drink, force them to pay attention, and actually toss people off when they hide.   AND tell people to go to their muster station WHEN they hear the alarm instead of after we all get there.  Otherwise, the real muster is barely better than the e-muster for the passengers.

[alfaeric]

49 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

 

 

I hope that Royal returns to traditional musters as soon as possible. It ensure that everyone really knows where to go during a real emergency. Right now, we normally don't get close to our real muster station,,,, just someone in the hall scanning cards. 

 

It is realistic from the perspective that you will muster, you will sit,,, and sit,,, and sit,,, and will eventually be released. 

 

You mean you sit, drink, read email, talk on the phone, be board, complaining and not paying attention, etc...  instead of paying CLOSE attention because there's an actual emergency.  Not the same at all.

 

As for not getting close to your muster station- seriously?  You go to it to check in.  Maybe you don't notice that your muster station is Sorrento's pizza and not directly next to a life boat?

[deliver42]

Carnival has already said they have no intention of going back. I hope Royal is the same.

[TwinMamainMN]

Very interesting comments @chengkp75. Thank you for commenting. It’s fascinating to me when you share your expert knowledge. I appreciate it very much.

[shofer]

8 hours ago, Starry Eyes said:

I dread having a disaster on a cruise ship regardless of the type of muster drill.   Despite the efforts of crew members during the traditional muster drill some passengers were inattentive, talkative and/or drunk.  They created a poor atmosphere for others, including the newbies who most need the drill.  Even before the pandemic I wondered how poorly those fools would behave in an actual emergency.  I hope I never find out.  It may depend upon the passenger mix on a given voyage, the type of emergency and the leadership/crew management of the situation more than the type of drill.

 

 

I went on a Princess cruise with a friend right after the Costa Concordia disaster.  I have never seen, before or since, the quiet attention being paid to what was being said/explained.  They even removed a crying baby and her parents from our area.

[pbokie]

I think the biggest benefit by going back to the old muster drill is that we can all catch whatever the current flu/covid is at the first of the cruise instead of possibly getting it later.  This way I will hopefully  recover for the flight back home so I can go right to work.

  

[RCCL Fan]

10 hours ago, Starry Eyes said:

I dread having a disaster on a cruise ship regardless of the type of muster drill.   Despite the efforts of crew members during the traditional muster drill some passengers were inattentive, talkative and/or drunk.  They created a poor atmosphere for others, including the newbies who most need the drill.  Even before the pandemic I wondered how poorly those fools would behave in an actual emergency.  I hope I never find out.  It may depend upon the passenger mix on a given voyage, the type of emergency and the leadership/crew management of the situation more than the type of drill.

 

I seem to meet a lot of entertainment staff at muster stations (traditional and digital check in).  Singers, dancers, skaters, etc often do well in those roles with stage presence and communication skills, plus their turn around day duties differ from crew.  As a cost trade off, ships do not have to shut down all services at potentially profitable time just before sailaway.

 

I dread this too. The inattentiveness, the drunks, the panicking people. 

 

Also,  in my recent aging years I've developed claustrophobia. 

 

Have you seen those life saving capsules, and the number of people they are slated to hold?  crying, drunk,  panicking people, crammed inside those things with no air... for hours upon hours.

 

Nope  

 

I'll go down with this ship, I will put my hands up and surrender.  😉

[Pellaz]

13 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The IMO moves very slowly, and needs to have quite a lot of data to make a decision.  Two years of e-muster evaluations, even on all cruise ships, is not that large a data pool, compared to the decades of data from the old style drill.  Frankly, I don't believe that the IMO will approve the e-muster, as it does not provide adequate, realistic training for passengers or crew.  I dread having a disaster on a ship where the e-muster has been in use.

 

Since the crew still needs to perform a passenger muster drill weekly, adding this to the normal crew fire and boat drill is adding more time away from normal duties for more crew than under the old drill, and also, crew are wasted waiting at the muster station for hours waiting for passengers to check in, taking them from their normal duties, so this is also a cost savings for the cruise line.

 

I know I'm in the unpopular minority, but I see this as a win for passenger safety.

 

Agreed about passenger safety.  I've really enjoyed the "luxury" of e-muster and checking in at an inside location, but I think the chances are higher that people aren't "connecting" the casual experience with an actual disaster situation if one arises.   

With a group muster you DO get more of a sense of "this is where I'd need to go in case of an evacuation."   If these return based on IMO/SOLAS, I DO hope I get an inside muster location rather than an outside deck.  Haven't had an outside muster in several years but it was brutal on the Independence...naturally I always got the sun-blazing side of the ship.  

 

4 hours ago, shofer said:

I went on a Princess cruise with a friend right after the Costa Concordia disaster.  I have never seen, before or since, the quiet attention being paid to what was being said/explained.  They even removed a crying baby and her parents from our area.

Had the same experience on our post-Concordia Carnival cruise.  For once, the audience was VERY quiet and attentive.   Can't imagine why....

[Engineroom Snipe]

3 hours ago, RCCL Fan said:

 

I dread this too. The inattentiveness, the drunks, the panicking people. 

 

Also,  in my recent aging years I've developed claustrophobia. 

 

Have you seen those life saving capsules, and the number of people they are slated to hold?  crying, drunk,  panicking people, crammed inside those things with no air... for hours upon hours.

 

Nope  

 

I'll go down with this ship, I will put my hands up and surrender.  😉

 

Do not worry, if I see someone holding up their hands at the muster-deck, I will think of how they handled B.A. Baracus (Mr. T, A-Team) and find a way to make you unconscious for the journey.  I do need to know how much you weigh and any health issues you might have. I need your weight for the dose and to determine how much dead-weight (pun intended) we will have to handle in order to keep you alive.  😁

 

Just do not hurt me too much when you wake-up surrounded by 264 people in a floating sardine can. 🤣

[shof515]

9 hours ago, deliver42 said:

Carnival has already said they have no intention of going back. I hope Royal is the same.

while that intention is good, carnival is really at the mercy of the various regulators like IMO and Coast Guard. If they say go back  then sadly they too will have to go back

[island lady]

16 hours ago, Starry Eyes said:

And then carelessly let the belt of the life jacket drag behind you on the stairs when you return to your cabin

 

Ah...hah!!   So you know that story!    😉 

[island lady]

Have been on quite a few cruises since restart.   Love, love the new emuster....hope it does not go away.  

 

That being said, every single leg of every cruise we have been on, the usual multiple announcements come just as sail away time is near.  Captain is telling us that there are still pax that have not presented themselves to their muster station.  

 

Come on people, how simple can they make it?   Those that refuse to do that simple thing in due time..... need to be sent to the hot decks in the sun, standing like sardines for 20-30 minutes with their life jackets on.  Yes, the one with no cell phone use, no drinks, and no food.  

 

That may just remind them to adhere a bit earlier as requested in the future.  😉 

[time4u2go]

2 minutes ago, island lady said:

Have been on quite a few cruises since restart.   Love, love the new emuster....hope it does not go away.  

 

That being said, every single leg of every cruise we have been on, the usual multiple announcements come just as sail away time is near.  Captain is telling us that there are still pax that have not presented themselves to their muster station.  

 

Come on people, how simple can they make it?   Those that refuse to do that simple thing in due time..... need to be sent to the hot decks in the sun, standing like sardines for 20-30 minutes with their life jackets on.  Yes, the one with no cell phone use, no drinks, and no food.  

 

That may just remind them to adhere a bit earlier as requested in the future.  😉 

Simple solution...don't allow people to purchase anything or use drink vouchers until they've done e-muster.  

[hotsauce126]

13 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

 

 

I hope that Royal returns to traditional musters as soon as possible. It ensure that everyone really knows where to go during a real emergency. Right now, we normally don't get close to our real muster station,,,, just someone in the hall scanning cards. 

 

It is realistic from the perspective that you will muster, you will sit,,, and sit,,, and sit,,, and will eventually be released. 

if you think that any real live emergency would be anything other than complete chaos regardless of the type of mister drill you’re kidding yourself

[Starry Eyes]

19 minutes ago, island lady said:

 

Ah...hah!!   So you know that story!    😉 

I do not know your life jacket story.  I simply remember watching many carelessly trailing belts back in the day thinking someone could be tripped and injured.

[Engineroom Snipe]

8 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

Simple solution...don't allow people to purchase anything or use drink vouchers until they've done e-muster.  

 

Whoa, the "nuclear" option! 😲

[island lady]

14 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

Simple solution...don't allow people to purchase anything or use drink vouchers until they've done e-muster.  

 

I like that one too!  😉