Disembarkation one port before final destination

[K32682]

51 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The important words in your post are REASONABLE and COURTESY.

 

And even when asking in advance, and getting permission, it is best to have it in writing as a snag might still show up.

 

You don't need "permission" or have it in writing.  While the cruise line might prefer you make the request in advance circumstances can arise during a cruise that make an early departure preferable or even necessary. Customer service will facilitate the departure by settling your account and, if necessary, arrange for a customs officer to process your entry. It's not a big issue for them. 

[navybankerteacher]

34 minutes ago, K32682 said:

 

You don't need "permission" or have it in writing.  While the cruise line might prefer you make the request in advance circumstances can arise during a cruise that make an early departure preferable or even necessary. Customer service will facilitate the departure by settling your account and, if necessary, arrange for a customs officer to process your entry. It's not a big issue for them. 

If you expect Customer service to facilitate departure, and to settle your account, and to arrange for a customs officer to process your entry, you surely do need to make such request in advance.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, K32682 said:

 

You don't need "permission" or have it in writing.  While the cruise line might prefer you make the request in advance circumstances can arise during a cruise that make an early departure preferable or even necessary. Customer service will facilitate the departure by settling your account and, if necessary, arrange for a customs officer to process your entry. It's not a big issue for them. 

Whether you are right or not, it is still preferable to do it in advance and safer to have it in writing.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Whether you are right or not, it is still preferable to do it in advance and safer to have it in writing.

Some people seem to think it is demeaning to be expected to make a request.

Edited February 6, 2023 by navybankerteacher

[Hlitner]

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

You don't need "permission" or have it in writing.  While the cruise line might prefer you make the request in advance circumstances can arise during a cruise that make an early departure preferable or even necessary. Customer service will facilitate the departure by settling your account and, if necessary, arrange for a customs officer to process your entry. It's not a big issue for them. 

Your information is certainly incorrect for some cruise lines so do not paint with a broad brush.  In fact, some cruise lines now charge a processing fee for those who want to disembark early (enroute deviation).   I do know that the last time we did a one-day early debarkation (it was on a Princess Cruise in Le Havre) we had to submit a request (in writing and well before the cruise) which generated a written approval (sent via e-mail).  Once aboard we showed that to Guest Relations who further processed that info and even gave us luggage tags.   We left our luggage outside our cabin (the night before reaching Le Havre) and our luggage was later retrieved from a small pile in the terminal building.

 

It actually can be a big issue "for them" since the ship is usually responsible to report such information to the local authorities.  The procedures can also vary from country to country and port to port.   There are also plenty of times when a request would be denied such as on any Closed Loop Cruise under the WHTI).  And I specifically recall one messy situation when friends did an early disembarkation at a Russian port.

 

Hank

[K32682]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Your information is certainly incorrect for some cruise lines so do not paint with a broad brush.  In fact, some cruise lines now charge a processing fee for those who want to disembark early (enroute deviation).   I do know that the last time we did a one-day early debarkation (it was on a Princess Cruise in Le Havre) we had to submit a request (in writing and well before the cruise) which generated a written approval (sent via e-mail).  Once aboard we showed that to Guest Relations who further processed that info and even gave us luggage tags.   We left our luggage outside our cabin (the night before reaching Le Havre) and our luggage was later retrieved from a small pile in the terminal building.

 

It actually can be a big issue "for them" since the ship is usually responsible to report such information to the local authorities.  The procedures can also vary from country to country and port to port.   There are also plenty of times when a request would be denied such as on any Closed Loop Cruise under the WHTI).  And I specifically recall one messy situation when friends did an early disembarkation at a Russian port.

 

Hank

 

Unless you are a French citizen or your friends were Russian this is a different situation than mine and the one being described by the OP. In both cases it was/is a Canadian citizen returning to Canada and to ports were the CBSA is readily available. 

 

Certainly there may be an extra charge and notifying the cruise line in advance might make matters smoother but it is not mandatory. My decision to leave early was made after disembarkation and the cruise line (HAL) handled the matter without undue drama.  

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by K32682

[navybankerteacher]

52 minutes ago, K32682 said:

 

…

My decision to leave early was made after disembarkation and the cruise line (HAL) handled the matter without undue drama.  

 

Your “…decision to leave early was made after disembarkation…”?  How was that possible (without a time machine) ?   Ordinarily must peoples’ actions are made after the decision to take them, not the other way around.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Unless you are a French citizen or your friends were Russian this is a different situation than mine and the one being described by the OP. In both cases it was/is a Canadian citizen returning to Canada and to ports were the CBSA is readily available. 

 

Certainly there may be an extra charge and notifying the cruise line in advance might make matters smoother but it is not mandatory. My decision to leave early was made after disembarkation and the cruise line (HAL) handled the matter without undue drama.  

 

The problem seems to be that you made a general statement about not needing to inform or get written permission based on your specific situation.

[K32682]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Your “…decision to leave early was made after disembarkation…”?  How was that possible (without a time machine) ?   Ordinarily must peoples’ actions are made after the decision to take them, not the other way around.

 

Thank-you for your correction. I meant embarkation. 

[K32682]

16 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The problem seems to be that you made a general statement about not needing to inform or get written permission based on your specific situation.

 

You certainly do need to inform the crew. Getting it in writing was not necessary. I also did not beg "permission" but informed the crew of my intentions and they were very accommodating. 

[navybankerteacher]

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

You certainly do need to inform the crew. Getting it in writing was not necessary. I also did not beg "permission" but informed the crew of my intentions and they were very accommodating. 

There is a reasonable middle ground between begging “permission” and flatly “informing” others of intentions.  

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

[GrannyJ]

I don't know if this was because it was a special circumstance, but on a Port Canaveral->Bahamas->Key West->Port Canaveral cruise, my other half became very sick and was being kept in the infirmary.  The doctor agreed that he did not need to be put off the ship in the Bahamas as they would continue caring for him.  I said if he didn't get better, we'd leave the cruise in Key West.  Doctor said that would be no problem, he could arrange everything and we could leave the cruise.  

 

Luckily, with the excellent care he received on the ship, he was able to finish the cruise.  

 

 

[GeezerCouple]

7 minutes ago, GrannyJ said:

I don't know if this was because it was a special circumstance, but on a Port Canaveral->Bahamas->Key West->Port Canaveral cruise, my other half became very sick and was being kept in the infirmary.  The doctor agreed that he did not need to be put off the ship in the Bahamas as they would continue caring for him.  I said if he didn't get better, we'd leave the cruise in Key West.  Doctor said that would be no problem, he could arrange everything and we could leave the cruise.  

 

Luckily, with the excellent care he received on the ship, he was able to finish the cruise.  

 

Yes, definitely, "being sick" can be a very "special circumstance" such that one can disembark early... or possibly "BE disembarked" even if one thinks it's "okay" to remain on the ship.  Others on the ship, such as the physician and Captain, will make these determinations.

 

GC

[LHT28]

9 minutes ago, GrannyJ said:

I don't know if this was because it was a special circumstance, but on a Port Canaveral->Bahamas->Key West->Port Canaveral cruise, my other half became very sick and was being kept in the infirmary.  The doctor agreed that he did not need to be put off the ship in the Bahamas as they would continue caring for him.  I said if he didn't get better, we'd leave the cruise in Key West.  Doctor said that would be no problem, he could arrange everything and we could leave the cruise.  

 

Luckily, with the excellent care he received on the ship, he was able to finish the cruise.  

 

 

when someone is ill then I believe special circumstances  kick in

[swanhaven]

I'm a little bit confused by the whole thing and apologies for any threadjacking.....I would like to potentially embark in Vancouver and disembark early in Skagway - I'm Canadian and live close to Skagway in Canada so I could just go to my house from there.

I've asked before elsewhere with not much luck - does anyone have any insight whether that scenario would be possible?

Yes, I would follow all the proper procedures

[LHT28]

17 minutes ago, swanhaven said:

I'm a little bit confused by the whole thing and apologies for any threadjacking.....I would like to potentially embark in Vancouver and disembark early in Skagway - I'm Canadian and live close to Skagway in Canada so I could just go to my house from there.

I've asked before elsewhere with not much luck - does anyone have any insight whether that scenario would be possible?

Yes, I would follow all the proper procedures

best to contact the cruise line 

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

Yes, definitely, "being sick" can be a very "special circumstance" such that one can disembark early... or possibly "BE disembarked" even if one thinks it's "okay" to remain on the ship.  Others on the ship, such as the physician and Captain, will make these determinations.

 

GC

I believe the ship initially gets fined, but then after an appeal the fine is waived in this type of circumstance.

[pdmlynek]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:47 AM, wcook said:

If leaving early causes the ship to violate cabotage laws, the ship can be fined and they have the right to go after the passenger for the cost of that fine. Not worth - IMO - the risk of a multi thousand $fine to just walk off instead of asking. 

Yo uare correct, but that is not the issue here.  If @Hey! Jude were to travel only between US ports without entering Canada, then you'd be correct.  In this case, as in @navybankerteacher's case, starting a journey in one country and disembarking in another does not violate the cabotage laws.

 

BTW, is it up to multi thousand $ fines?  A few years ago, the fine was just $350.  

[pdmlynek]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:12 PM, GeezerCouple said:

 

Yes, definitely, "being sick" can be a very "special circumstance" such that one can disembark early... or possibly "BE disembarked" even if one thinks it's "okay" to remain on the ship.  Others on the ship, such as the physician and Captain, will make these determinations.

 

GC

Is this true?  Did the laws change?  Based on the case law that I reviewed a few years ago, the shipping line is charged a fee regardless of the reason.  There were cases of doctors being brought on board, or special mechanics or crew members, leaving early, etc.  and in every case the cruise line had to pay.

 

Whether the cruise line choses to pass the fee onto the sick passenger is a different question.

[chengkp75]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:33 PM, swanhaven said:

I'm a little bit confused by the whole thing and apologies for any threadjacking.....I would like to potentially embark in Vancouver and disembark early in Skagway - I'm Canadian and live close to Skagway in Canada so I could just go to my house from there.

I've asked before elsewhere with not much luck - does anyone have any insight whether that scenario would be possible?

Yes, I would follow all the proper procedures

This would be legal, but up to the cruise line to determine whether or not they wish to incur the additional expense of filing new manifests with both Canadian and US Customs and Immigration, and whether they want the potential complaints when US CBP no longer treats the cruise as a "closed loop" cruise, and subjects the disembarking passengers to additional screening.

4 hours ago, pdmlynek said:

Is this true?  Did the laws change?  Based on the case law that I reviewed a few years ago, the shipping line is charged a fee regardless of the reason.  There were cases of doctors being brought on board, or special mechanics or crew members, leaving early, etc.  and in every case the cruise line had to pay.

 

Whether the cruise line choses to pass the fee onto the sick passenger is a different question.

No, "getting sick" does not warrant a waiver of the fine, automatically.  I've seen cases where a deceased passenger's spouse was disembarked early and triggered the fine.  In those cases, and with a medical disembarkation, the cruise line passes the fine to the passenger, and then it is up to the passenger to appeal to CBP for a waiver.  The cruise lines frequently give the passenger all the documentation needed for the appeal, but don't want to actually do the appeal.

 

I would beg to differ on whether a fine was ever levied for a crewmember, as they are not considered passengers, by legal definition.   CBP is very specific about the definition of a "passenger".

 

From the CBP PVSA "Informed Compliance" Manual:

 

"CBP has interpreted this regulation to mean that a “passenger” within the meaning of the PVSA is any person transported on a vessel who is not directly and substantially connected with the operation of the vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business."

 

"Examples of who is not a "passenger" per the definition of "directly or substantially connected with the operation of the vessel" are listed as:

 

Pursuant to 19 C.F.R. § 4.50(b), a passenger is any person carried on a vessel who is not connected with the operation of such vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business.

 

Operation or Navigation of the Vessel

• Auditors and inspectors conducting surveys pursuant to the International Ship and Port Facility Security (ISPS) Code, International Safety Management (ISM) Code, International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), and International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships (MARPOL). 22

• Cargo hold cleaning crews performing cargo hold cleaning operations.23

• Safety and maintenance inspectors24

• Individuals conducting safety trainings for the crew.25

• Technicians conducting maintenance or repairs on the vessel. 26

 

Ownership or Business of the Vessel

 • The officers of a company owning a vessel, and, if the corporate owner, the members of its board of directors, if acting in their official capacities while onboard the vessel.2

 

The spouse and children of officers of a vessel are not passengers. The children must be a part of the officer’s household.28 CBP has found the following positions to be officers of the vessel:

• Captain/Master/Chief Officer;29

• Chief/First Mate;30

• Second Officer;31

• Third Officer;32

• Radio Officer;33

• Chief Engineer;34 and

• First Assistant Engineer"

 

The PVSA fine has gone up to $798.  Notice the bolding above for outside technicians.  And, crew are signed onto ship's articles, and therefore not being transported "for hire".

[GeezerCouple]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:12 PM, GeezerCouple said:

 

Yes, definitely, "being sick" can be a very "special circumstance" such that one can disembark early... or possibly "BE disembarked" even if one thinks it's "okay" to remain on the ship.  Others on the ship, such as the physician and Captain, will make these determinations.

 

GC

 

9 hours ago, pdmlynek said:

Is this true?  Did the laws change?  Based on the case law that I reviewed a few years ago, the shipping line is charged a fee regardless of the reason.  There were cases of doctors being brought on board, or special mechanics or crew members, leaving early, etc.  and in every case the cruise line had to pay.

 

Whether the cruise line choses to pass the fee onto the sick passenger is a different question.

 

I have no special knowledge of whether or how fines are administered, and chengkp75 has just given another of his well-informed posts that address this issue.

 

I was simply referring to whether there would be difficulty with the *ship/cruise line* if a passenger was determined to be sick enough to require more medical care than the ship's medical staff and facilities could provide.

I have never heard of, and cannot imagine, any ship having a patient ill enough to need transfer to better, more substantial medical facilities being told, "Yes, the ship physician thinks you must get to a hospital as soon as possible, but... so sorry, there are cabotage laws, so we cannot let you off the ship.  Sorry 'bout that!"

 

(However, a ship/cruiseline definitely can invoke cabotage laws (by that or other wording) to someone asking to leave early for a reason other than a medical emergency such that the passenger will not get permission to do so.  And ships/cruiselines have indeed said just that.)

 

IF a ship/cruiseline wants to deal with recovering any fines that might follow, that's a separate issue.

 

When DH was taken off a ship on a gurney and put into an ambulance waiting on the dock, no one was mentioning any possible fines or problems with the passenger manifest, not even during the delay until the ambulance arrived.

 

GC

[njhorseman]

10 hours ago, pdmlynek said:

 

BTW, is it up to multi thousand $ fines?

The multi thousand $ fines were in reference to Canada's Coasting Trade Act, which potentially has larger fines than the USA's PVSA. Early on in the thread it wasn't clear whether there was a potential violation of Canadian Law or US law because the specific itinerary hadn't been stated.

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

I have never heard of, and cannot imagine, any ship having a patient ill enough to need transfer to better, more substantial medical facilities being told, "Yes, the ship physician thinks you must get to a hospital as soon as possible, but... so sorry, there are cabotage laws, so we cannot let you off the ship.  Sorry 'bout that!"

The ship cannot deny you disembarkation, for any reason, in any port.  They can make it difficult, and they can point to costs involved, but they cannot hold you on the ship, even for an unpaid account.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The ship cannot deny you disembarkation, for any reason, in any port.  They can make it difficult, and they can point to costs involved, but they cannot hold you on the ship, even for an unpaid account.

🤣, I guess you cannot use the strategy of not paying your account to make your cruise become back to back.

 

When we were in Jamaica for our 20th anniversary way back in the 20th century, there was a tax to leave. The lady in line ahead of us to pay the tax, said she had spent all her money and could not pay the small tax. They did NOT make her stay. 

[njhorseman]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The ship cannot deny you disembarkation, for any reason, in any port.  They can make it difficult, and they can point to costs involved, but they cannot hold you on the ship, even for an unpaid account.

 

8 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

🤣, I guess you cannot use the strategy of not paying your account to make your cruise become back to back.

 

When we were in Jamaica for our 20th anniversary way back in the 20th century, there was a tax to leave. The lady in line ahead of us to pay the tax, said she had spent all her money and could not pay the small tax. They did NOT make her stay. 

Unlike Charlie in the song M.T. A. who was trapped on the Boston subway system because he didn't have the money for the new exit fares. 😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Jw_v3F_Q0