Dogs on the ship

[LibertyBella]

I completely agree there is a difference between professionally trained service dogs, and dogs that provide "support."

 

I am not sure how to respond towards those that actually seem to WANT emotional support dogs (animals). Do they take them to the movies, baseball games, parades, etc.?  I often see little dogs in shopping malls these days. What happens if a dog gets hurt or sick on a ship?  Who is available to help it? Dogs have sensitive ears and noses.  Loud noises can actually damage their hearing.  What if they breathe or lick some noxious cleaning fluid on the ship? What is it that the dog actually does at the moment?  Couldn't a photo or video of the pet also help support someone? Don't the dogs miss the grass, and the ability to run free without being on a leash?

 

I ask all this because I have been a dog owner for decades; I also have cats, and parakeets.  Yes, I truly admit my house is a menagerie, but I love them all dearly.  I am actually resting before I leave for my Viking cruise tomorrow, as I have just finished setting up daily food containers for my birds and cats (multiples of all, so they always have a companion). My littlest girl cat, a fluffy Persian under five pounds, will climb on the bed with me every morning and lick my face gently to wake me up, then cuddle under the covers purring until I get up. She will truly miss me!

 

Tomorrow morning we will drop the dogs off at our boarding facility (run by an animal hospital with veterinarians always available).  Usually I have to reserve for the dogs months in advance, and I never travel more than two weeks as it is too long for all of them to not have me around.  My dogs are not tiny--they range from 40 to 70 pounds, but they still want to be my lap dogs and try to climb all over me, especially when I am sitting on the sofa.

 

I love all my pets, but I would NEVER think of taking them on a cruise, or even an airplane (Persians can suffocate due to their small noses), as their safety and health comes first! 

 

I have two very close friends, one with a second house in France--they have a small dog that has its own passport and all shots, and travels every year with them abroad, but it is basically from house to house.  Our other friends went to Germany for a year, and took their little dog back and forth on the QM2 in the professional kennel.

 

Pet ownership is an important responsibility.  I must say a feel somewhat sorry for the dogs whose owners take them on cruises.

 

 

 

[KBs mum]

Another problem is that dogs can get motion sickness, even if they don't actually hurl they will be miserable if they feel ill. 

I'd be worried about lack of access to a veterinary hospital in an emergency. A bit of UK law I've allways liked is that, summarised, veterinary surgeons can treat a human  (as long as they don't claim to be a doctor) but doctors can't treat animals

[Hobson1754]

I have contacted my travel agent this morning who in turn has contacted Viking - albeit Viking UK.  They have stated that Emotional Support Dogs are not allowed on board, only seeing and hearing trained dogs.  They added that they are aware of the current issue and are investigating, particularly in respect of one ship!!
 

I have also emailed Tellus@vikingcruises.com and await their response.🤞 

[KBs mum]

12 hours ago, CurlerRob said:

Killing two birds with one stone ... @Clay Clayton, do I get free popcorn? 🍺🥌

 

He's definately not following the service dog identification vest code. 😁 Any Idea where Clay is with the snacks? He's taking so long we are now going on about holidays in the Scottish Borders instead of outfits.😎

[TayanaLorna]

14 hours ago, longterm said:

Next thing you know they’ll ban my emotional support macaw. 

 

I’m sure there are a few who really do need to travel with an emotional support animal, but I’d guess that 95% of these people could just as easily make do with a stuffed animal—or a nice glass of wine.
 

I’m going to start traveling with my emotional support TV remote. 
 

Just my opinion. 

Oh no, if you do that my DH will have to bring his recliner chair!

[chengkp75]

I don't believe I've posted regarding service animals on the Viking forum, so I'll try to answer some of the questions/observations that I see in this thread.

 

First off, ESA's (emotional support animals) are not covered by the ADA, and so there is no requirement for a foreign flag cruise ship to allow them onboard.  The only areas that ESA's are guaranteed protection, in the US, are the Equal Housing Act (provides protection for owners of ESA's in housing) and the Civil Aviation Act (though this has been recently restricted as to ESA's on aircraft).

 

Per the ADA, the only place that a Service Animal should be is on the floor, or in the owner's arms (this allows for diabetes detection dogs to be close enough to sense the owner's breath for signs of keto acidosis).

 

Next, there is no requirement in the US ADA for a service animal to have any identification (harness or vest) on it at any time.

 

Why can cruise lines only ask two questions regarding service animals, while the airlines have restricted types of ESA's allowed?  Because, as stated above, Service Animals are covered by the ADA, while ESA's are covered by the EHA and CAA, and the CAA has been amended or had the regulations changed by the agency involved.

 

Regarding allergies, under the law of the ADA, the ability of a person to have a Service Animal trumps allergies, though the owner of the establishment should make as many concessions to those allergic as possible.

 

Regarding the dog's toilet needs, this has been addressed by others, but the main point of contention is that Service Animals are (or should be) trained to only "go" on command, while ESA's and pets will typically "go" when the urge hits them.

 

Per the ADA, there is no requirement for Service Animals to have any formal training, or certification, but there is a "code of conduct" that the ADA spells out, where if the Animal does not behave according to this code, the establishment can ask the owner to leave.

 

Now, having said all that, regarding the ADA and Service Animals, everyone should understand that SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, around 2005, that while foreign flag cruise ships must comply with the ADA in certain areas (such as not discriminating against the disabled, and requiring accessibility within certain limits), that the "internal policies and procedures" of the cruise ship with regards to accessibility (areas such as policies about where and how Service Animals are handled) is up to the cruise line, and do not have to follow ADA requirements.  This was stated as being the case until Congress specifically mentions "foreign flag cruise ships" in the ADA, and in the intervening years, Congress has not acted to amend the ADA.  Many of the "rights and protections" that US citizens take for granted in their everyday life, end once you walk up the gangway to a foreign flag cruise ship.

 

So, know that you cannot complain to Viking about Service Animal behavior based on the ADA's "code of conduct", but given the lengthy description given in a previous post, there may be grounds for a complaint.  Viking may need to adjust their terms as well, if they wish to more closely align with the ADA's code of conduct.

 

Viking also needs to instruct their personnel that when a dog owning passenger presents their animal as a "Service Animal", the answer to the question, "what task does the animal provide for the owner", cannot be that the "mere presence of the animal" provides a service, as that is defined in the ADA as an ESA, and they are not granted protection under the ADA.  Even PTSD Service Animals, whose main job is to calm the owner, must be shown to do certain "tasks" like blocking the person from walking into situations where the dog senses that the stress level will trigger a PTSD attack, or licking the owner to signal that the situation requires his/her attention to limit stress.

[TayanaLorna]

11 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

Well, they SHOULD be able to based on what I'm reading and mentioned above, but, yeah, undoubtedly violation of someone's rights to even ask for proper documentation. Crazy world we're in. 

And this issue really bothers me.  If the "emotional" reason cannot be known, how can a cruise line determine that an emotionally challenged person is not a threat to other passengers.  I believe this was an issue for the airlines with emotional support animals.  Thank goodness cruise lines ban and screen for guns!

[d9704011]

4 minutes ago, TayanaLorna said:

If the "emotional" reason cannot be known, how can a cruise line determine that an emotionally challenged person is not a threat to other passengers

They can't.  Also, they're not well positioned to judge the potential risk(s) posed by pretty much every other other passenger.  Don't stigmatize those who have an emotional support animal.

[KBs mum]

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Now, having said all that, regarding the ADA and Service Animals, everyone should understand that SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, around 2005, that while foreign flag cruise ships must comply with the ADA in certain areas (such as not discriminating against the disabled, and requiring accessibility within certain limits), that the "internal policies and procedures" of the cruise ship with regards to accessibility (areas such as policies about where and how Service Animals are handled) is up to the cruise line, and do not have to follow ADA requirements.  This was stated as being the case until Congress specifically mentions "foreign flag cruise ships" in the ADA, and in the intervening years, Congress has not acted to amend the ADA.  Many of the "rights and protections" that US citizens take for granted in their everyday life, end once you walk up the gangway to a foreign flag cruise ship.

 

So, know that you cannot complain to Viking about Service Animal behavior based on the ADA's "code of conduct", but given the lengthy description given in a previous post, there may be grounds for a complaint.  Viking may need to adjust their terms as well, if they wish to more closely align with the ADA's code of conduct.

 

To what extent does flag country come into it? Example on a transatlantic, UK assistance dog regulations seem to be stricter than US, so would different rules apply at each end, or would Norway's be legally applicable. 

Or if  a US person takes the support dog to Canada (no idea about the cross border regs, just using it as an example) to join a ship going to Greenland then finally to the US does the ADA apply as you described? 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

To what extent does flag country come into it? Example on a transatlantic, UK assistance dog regulations seem to be stricter than US, so would different rules apply at each end, or would Norway's be legally applicable. 

Or if  a US person takes the support dog to Canada (no idea about the cross border regs, just using it as an example) to join a ship going to Greenland then finally to the US does the ADA apply as you described? 

The flag state is what governs while on the ship.  The US ADA only applies in certain areas, as I said, in that if the cruise originates in the US, then things like whether or not there are accessible cabins, or whether all public areas are accessible, or whether a service animal is allowed or not, would apply, since they are acting as "common carriers" and also providing "accommodations".  I would assume that the same would apply in the UK, for cruises originating in the UK.  Even with the ADA, I know that Viking originally did not allow electric mobility scooters onboard, only wheelchairs (don't know the current policy).

 

The reasoning for the SCOTUS ruling that "internal policies and procedures" of a foreign flag cruise ship do not need to meet the ADA, is based on the precedents of international law.  How the UK handles this, I can't say, since their system is different than the US, and they may have different judicial precedents that handle things differently, or that interpret international law differently.

 

 

[longterm]

3 hours ago, KBs mum said:

He's definately not following the service dog identification vest code. 😁 Any Idea where Clay is with the snacks? He's taking so long we are now going on about holidays in the Scottish Borders instead of outfits.😎

I’m okay with the dog, but that shirt’s not appropriate dinner attire. 
 

Okay so the obvious question: where do these dogs do their business? Putting green? 😎

[SailorPaulH]

I predict the coming lawsuits when passengers fall sick from foodborne illnesses on ships where animals are allowed in ship's restaurants will be epic.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, SailorPaulH said:

I predict the coming lawsuits when passengers fall sick from foodborne illnesses on ships where animals are allowed in ship's restaurants will be epic.

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior has been going on for quite some time on most cruise lines, and there have not been outbreaks of illness, and I think this would be quite a stretch to extend one or two dogs being fed (and I don't condone this) to an outbreak of illness.

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

I can only speak regarding service dogs in the US, and there is no legal status for a service dog, and I wish there was. To be labeled a service dog, a dog must do at least three assigned jobs. But that is fairly meaningless as you can just say your dog is a service dog and they must let you have it with you except if you are a religious organization that does not allow dogs. Real service dogs are VERY expensive because raising and training a service dog is very costly. Some organizations do not charge those in need for the service dogs. But others like me paid for our dogs. There is no way any of us would put our dogs at risk, someone’s life depends on them.

 

KB’s mom, your point is well taken. Every day a dog has time off…just like the rest of us! We exercise them, play with them, cuddle them, and make sure all their needs are met.  

Someone mentioned their ears…. yes, dogs ears are sensitive. I would think the alarms and horn could bother them. Also, rough seas would be very hard on them. YES dogs are just like humans; they get motion sickness. At times dogs need to stand to feel balanced. On flights our dog stood during take off and landing. I can't imagine what they would do on rough seas. Another issue could be some of the surfaces getting on and off the ship, or on to a tender. If someone really considered leaving their service dog in their room and leaving ship, like has been suggested….that would be a bad decision.  

 

I totally understand people wanting to love on service dogs…we never minded people approaching us and asking questions or being interested in our dog. There was one exception we had for our dog in public, as we felt it was an important task for her. Small children do not understand. How do you tell a two-year-old not to touch the dog when it walks by. When a small child would reach out for her, she would bow (front legs out in front of her) and allow the child to touch her head. That really helped with promoting a good reputation for service dogs.

 

Again as everyone is saying….we are NOT talking about REAL service dogs in this discussion. We are talking about people who are lying to say they require the assistance of a dog so they don’t have to leave Fido home with a dog sitter, and as you can see, that makes me angry. If we don’t get this message across to Viking, more and more people will do this.

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

26 minutes ago, longterm said:

I’m okay with the dog, but that shirt’s not appropriate dinner attire. 
 

Okay so the obvious question: where do these dogs do their business? Putting green? 😎

REAL service dogs are taught during their training to do what they need to do on command. Unfortunately there are not always places where there is dirt or grass. We had issues in airports. You always carry provisions for those instances. 

[Hockeyump]

Staying with dogs but on planes. Just come off an Air Singapore flight Phuket to Singapore. We saw two dogs at Phuket airport and they were on our flight. 

 

No indication as to their role as no vests but I overheard the husband saying that his wife couldn't fly unless she was cuddling her dog. The other one sat quietly on the floor.  Personally I don't think in that case she should fly.

 

I shall be taking this up with the airline. Very tempted to say I was allergic to dogs but they might have kicked me off the flight!

 

It does seem that Viking are on the case and I shall contact them to add my support to those who have already done so.

[OneSixtyToOne]

Hoping to see Finse onboard one day. Her paw print is on the Finse Terrace of the explorer ships BTW.

https://viking.tv/tv/our-viking-family/the-world-of-finse

[Peregrina651]

16 hours ago, CCWineLover said:

 then someone actually might be forced to respond and think about this growing issue.

 

Definitely voice your concerns directly to Viking; it is the best way to get Viking to take action. But don't expect that they are going to give you any response beyond  a polite thank you -- and don't expect any response here on this thread. It is just not the way that Viking handles things. TellUs is just a conduit; they are not the decision-makers.

 

The only way that we will know that our concerns have been addressed is when we start seeing fewer dogs on board and we start hearing more complaints on social media about having been refused boarding because of an animal that was not declared before boarding -- or even better of properly filed requests that were denied.

[artlee]

I am on Oceania Rivera on a TA and yesterday there was a dog in the buffet sitting next to and being fed by her owner. In the middle of the restaurant. Sitting in a baby stroller. Didn’t look like it was providing emotional support to me but who knows. If this becomes the common new way to cruise with multiple emotional support dogs/pets on board count me out.

[Vineyard View]

14 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Service dogs and “emotional support” dogs are radically different. We had a service dog for our daughter who was a quad on a ventilator. The dog was highly trained, tested and retested, and we had to agree to strict guidelines in order to receive the dog. Legally the dog had to provide three services to be a service dog. She was a working dog, she did not socialize with other people, and we had to constantly remind people that she was not a pet and to not disturb her from doing her job. (No worries, she got plenty of love and cuddles from us when she was off duty.) Our dog had a lot of air miles on her, and never once did we receive anything but compliments on how amazing she was. She was bathed and groomed and kept very clean, but she was a dog, she shed. I would never have taken her on a cruise. It in my opinion as a service dog owner,it is a totally inappropriate place for a service dog…with the exception of a person who relies on their service dog for safety reasons such as someone who is visually impaired.

It is totally unacceptable for dogs to be sitting on furniture, being fed from the table, or held in a lap (unless it is doing a task…but that would be a pretty unheard of task). 

The concept of emotional support dogs has been very disturbing to us as we had to put up with them barking at our dog as she worked. We encountered people who told us they were going to buy a vest off amazon and start saying their dog was a service dog. We are very disturbed as we have seen the explosion of “emotional support” animals. They give true service dogs a bad reputation…don’t even get me started.

My husband is currently on a chat with Viking regarding this. If anyone has any ideas of what else we can do, or who to contact, what to say….whatever, please post it here. We all need to become involved in getting this stopped because I believe there will be more and more people seeing this and then doing it.

You are the expert on this thread, in my opinion. You are the one who has personal, vested interest and time in this topic. You would be a good resource for Viking if they were willing to listen and engage. Thank you for sharing the actual facts gained through experience. 
I sincerely believe that voices being raised, as Pelegrín’s and others have mentioned, is extremely important. Cruise lines need to figure out a way to get this ridiculous loophole under control. The airline industry did, so the cruise lines should also be able to find a path forward. 
Feeding your dog from the table in restaurants on a ship is completely unacceptable. 
 

[Mitina]

Just got this response from Viking.  Last sentence should rule but enforcement is the challenge.

 

”Kindly not(e) that on Viking ships a Service animal is defined by Title II and 

Title III of the ADA.  A service animal means any dog that is individually 

trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a 

disability. No other animals will be carried. We do not allow therapy dogs.”

[Hobson1754]

9 minutes ago, Mitina said:

Just got this response from Viking.  Last sentence should rule but enforcement is the challenge.

 

”Kindly not(e) that on Viking ships a Service animal is defined by Title II and 

Title III of the ADA.  A service animal means any dog that is individually 

trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a 

disability. No other animals will be carried. We do not allow therapy dogs.”

And yet they’re there - I can’t believe the 2 dogs we saw in photos provided were either ‘seeing eye’ or ‘hearing dogs 😱

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

57 minutes ago, Vineyard View said:

You are the expert on this thread, in my opinion. You are the one who has personal, vested interest and time in this topic. You would be a good resource for Viking if they were willing to listen and engage. Thank you for sharing the actual facts gained through experience. 
I sincerely believe that voices being raised, as Pelegrín’s and others have mentioned, is extremely important. Cruise lines need to figure out a way to get this ridiculous loophole under control. The airline industry did, so the cruise lines should also be able to find a path forward. 
Feeding your dog from the table in restaurants on a ship is completely unacceptable. 
 

Thanks Vineyard View....I'm not really an expert, I just have experience. Let me say that chengkp75 did a great job of giving details on the ADA, which I did not include in my post. 

 

I just love that so many on CC are taking this seriously and communicating this to Viking. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

To be labeled a service dog, a dog must do at least three assigned jobs.

I will just say that this is apparently a commonly held misconception regarding service dogs.  While 28CFR36.104 defines a service animal as one which does "work or tasks" for the benefit of an individual, and it has "tasks" pluralized.  However, 28CFR36.302(c)(6) states that an accommodation may ask what "work or task" the animal is trained to perform, with "task" in the singular.  And, in the DOJ Guidance document for the ADA, it explains that the dog:

 

"must be trained to take a specific action" (bolding is mine, and indicates that a singular action is required under the DOJ interpretation of the law.  And, further, if the dog does "work" for the benefit of the owner, it is not required to perform any tasks, though it is a little muddy as to what is "work" and what is a "task".

[Jim Avery]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior has been going on for quite some time on most cruise lines, and there have not been outbreaks of illness, and I think this would be quite a stretch to extend one or two dogs being fed (and I don't condone this) to an outbreak of illness.

Right on Chief.   Don't blame a dog for the stupidity of people..