Posted on Another Site...Ruby Princess Hits Dock in SF

[NavArch64]

For those onboard Ruby Princess waiting to sail, I recommend a visit to the Jeremiah O'Brien currently moored on the west side of Pier 35. 

 

SS Jeremiah O'Brien is a Liberty ship built during World War II and named after the American Revolutionary War ship captain Jeremiah O'Brien (1744–1818).

Now based in San Francisco, she is a rare survivor^[a] of the 6,939-ship 6 June 1944 D-Day armada off the coast of Normandy, France.^[5]

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by NavArch64

[Outerdog]

2 minutes ago, kathy49 said:

Is there any guarantee that the Ruby will sail on Sunday?

 

100% guaranteed to sail on Sunday. *

 

* See how ridiculous that sounds?

[kathy49]

3 minutes ago, Outerdog said:

 

100% guaranteed to sail on Sunday. *

 

* See how ridiculous that sounds?

Ok thanks for pointing out my stupid question but seriously I wonder...they have every motivation to get sail as at least they will capture some revenue out of this debacle but lots could change.  I wonder how many elected to continue after Sunday.

[SonomaMist]

3 hours ago, NavArch64 said:

Using a nominal estimate of $300 per person per day in expected revenue for the 10 day voyage of Ruby Princess, with a nominal 3000 guests onboard, this incident has already cost Princess Cruises (and therefore Carnival Corporation) at least $300 x 10 x 3000 x (0.75 + 0.75) = $13.5 million in guest compensation alone (refund + FCC). Add in the repair costs, less the fuel costs saved for the shorter voyage, and this incident is no doubt costing over $15 million. If I were in Santa Clarita or Miami, I would be more than curious.

 

(If I have made a mistake in my arithmetic, please let me know)

Jumping into the fray here - there are several coverages specific to the marine industry.
 

1. Princess likely has Protection and Indemnity insurance which is specific to marine operations. Liability to the dock will be assigned based on who caused the accident - the pilot or the captain.  
2. This will not cover damage to the hull itself as that is a separate coverage.
3. The biggie is business interruption for the cruise industry:  loss of use, loss of revenue, and unexpected additional costs.  
4. Due to the size of Carnival Corporation and worldwide fleets, there is an outside chance that they may choose to self insure or enter into a reinsurance transaction to partially insure part of the loss over a certain dollar amount.

https://www.thomasmillerspecialty.com/products/marine/business-interruption-cover-for-cruise-ships/
Thomas Miller Specialty's Cruise Cover Business Interruption insurance is tailor-made for owners, charterers and operators of cruise vessels. It protects the revenues of the participants of the cruise industry against the very special perils involved with this particular part of the marine and the tourist industry.

https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/guides/what-is-protection-and-indemnity-insurance-164291.aspx

The primary purpose of P&I insurance is to provide policyholders with protection against personal injury, illness and death claims from crew, passengers and so forth. P&I insurance also covers things like:

- Liability claims as a result of collision

- Removal of wreck

- Stowaways and repatriation

- Damages to or loss of cargo

- Damages to fixed or floating objects

- Civil liabilities imposed after pollution or oil spill

- Liability under approved towage contracts

It does not cover risks that would fall under a workers’ compensation policy or under the collision clause in a traditional hull policy.

 

 

[chengkp75]

47 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

So the maritime industry takes a different approach than the Navy does, if I understand you correctly.

The Navy has been trying to apply root cause analysis to incident investigation, but it has not taken hold the way that it has in civilian life.  Some of this may be that the maritime industry is required to create and apply the ISM, which uses root cause analysis as it's main auditing tool.

[chengkp75]

48 minutes ago, ldtr said:

I do believe that CBP knows that the ship has not left. Also unlike many other countries you do not clear immigration upon departure from the US, only to upon entry. Until the ship leaves port the passenger manifest can and will be updated and resubmitted. So no issue at all concerning PVSA and those that get off before the ship ever sails.

The manifest is only submitted (documenting an actual voyage) less than an hour before the ship sails, so no manifest was submitted while those folks were onboard and then left.  The manifest is used to clear the passengers out of the country.

[cr8tiv1]

Thank you to the experts @NavArch64 and @chengkp75.  I wondered why it took so long for you guys to chime in.  

 

You (both) always bring such clarity and accurate information to the board.  

 

1 hour ago, beg3yrs said:

I for one (and I'm certain there are others) very much appreciate both NavArch64's and chengkp75's knowledgeable contributions to this thread and to Cruise Critic in general.

 

How much fun would it be to have the both of them together in a bar? I bet neither would have to pay for their drinks.

 

[Colorado Coasty]

1 hour ago, NavArch64 said:

For those onboard Ruby Princess waiting to sail, I recommend a visit to the Jeremiah O'Brien currently moored on the west side of Pier 35. 

 

SS Jeremiah O'Brien is a Liberty ship built during World War II and named after the American Revolutionary War ship captain Jeremiah O'Brien (1744–1818).

Now based in San Francisco, she is a rare survivor^[a] of the 6,939-ship 6 June 1944 D-Day armada off the coast of Normandy, France.^[5]

 

We walked by in May, didn't appear to be open to the public.

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The Navy has been trying to apply root cause analysis to incident investigation, but it has not taken hold the way that it has in civilian life.  Some of this may be that the maritime industry is required to create and apply the ISM, which uses root cause analysis as it's main auditing tool.

Also the Navy uses the catch all phrase of loss of confidence to command, to remove ship commanders, so even if they were not culpable in a particular accident it may not result in their retaining their command.

[Tranquility Base]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure why everyone is looking for an individual to "blame" for the incident.  The maritime industry has moved on from the "blame" culture of incident investigation, and into the "root cause" culture.  In this system, "blame" is not assigned to individuals, so that the investigators can more reliably get an accurate statement of facts from everyone involved, so that the "root cause" of the incident can be found.  If the Captain followed all of the procedures and policies outlined for docking the vessel as stated in the company's ISM (International Safety Management) system, then he/she will not be held to "blame", but the policies and procedures will be amended to prevent a similar incident from happening again.  

Thank you, very well put.

This, I believe, originated from the airline industry in the ‘70s & 80s.

 

They developed their CRM program ( cockpit resource management ) which then developed into crew resource management.

In the maritime world this initially became BRM ( bridge resource management ).

 

As you say, there are numerous safety advances in play today which are a result of  moving away from the old school blame culture.

Modern day incident / accident investigation is far more advanced than that of 40 years ago.

 

[brisalta]

6 hours ago, DCThunder said:

The TL;DR version would be:  This incident is costing Princess/Carnival several boatloads of money.

 

Maybe they can just take Ruby over to Mare Island Shipyard and fix her up.  Oh, wait, Mare Island Shipyard doesn't exist anymore.

 

There are other ship repair yards in San Francisco Bay.

Edited July 8, 2023 by brisalta

[caribill]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Let's say you have two ports 250 miles apart, and originally the itinerary gives the ship 14 hours to transit (kind of typical for an overnight sailing between ports), requiring a speed of 17.8 knots.  Now, if you cut two hours off the port time, and increase the transit time by two hours, or 16 hours, the speed required drops to 15.6 knots.  Now, while to you the drop of 2.2 knots from the ship's speed doesn't seem like it would amount to much, ship's speed (power required to move it) and fuel consumption is not linear but exponential, and that 1 knot of speed could result in a 15% fuel savings. 

 

On the other hand we were on a recent cruise where the distance between ports was so small that the ship went out of the direct path and went extra distance so it could go at least 12 knots to maintain stability.

[tuputts]

I’m just thinking if I wanted to book an cabin vacated now could I 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 

On the other hand we were on a recent cruise where the distance between ports was so small that the ship went out of the direct path and went extra distance so it could go at least 12 knots to maintain stability.

It was far more to be able to have enough heat from the diesels to make water.  And, at 12 knots, the ship is burning about 40% of what it does at 18 knots.

[startedwithamouse]

 

Tug quickly moves out of the way just prior to unexpected contact at :12.

 

No wonder there were tug marks on the side after contact with the pier; they were trying to control it.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by startedwithamouse

[Bemidji Ty]

Yikes.  Reminds me of someone trying to parallel park without success.

[tawlaw1526]

WOW…….I heard this happened but this is the first video I’ve seen.   So unfortunate.    Glad no one was hurt.    

[Steelers36]

22 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

 

Tug quickly moves out of the way just prior to unexpected contact at :12.

 

No wonder there were tug marks on the side after contact with the pier; they were trying to control it.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, tawlaw1526 said:

WOW…….I heard this happened but this is the first video I’ve seen.   So unfortunate.    Glad no one was hurt.    

What video?

 

Also, there is already an extensive thread on this forum about the incident in SF harbor.

[startedwithamouse]

9 minutes ago, tawlaw1526 said:

WOW…….I heard this happened but this is the first video I’ve seen.   So unfortunate.    Glad no one was hurt.    

Agree.  Or killed. A tug is no match for an out of control ship. 

[brisalta]

24 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

 

Tug quickly moves out of the way just prior to unexpected contact at :12.

 

No wonder there were tug marks on the side after contact with the pier; they were trying to control it.

 

 

 

The scuff marks are too high to be from the tug.  They are more likely fender scrub marks.

[tawlaw1526]

1 minute ago, Steelers36 said:

 

What video?

 

Also, there is already an extensive thread on this forum about the incident in SF harbor.

Hummm….video appears to be deleted on the OP.    

[startedwithamouse]

3 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

 

What video?

 

Also, there is already an extensive thread on this forum about the incident in SF harbor.

But this is the first video, and shouldn't be buried. 

[startedwithamouse]

2 minutes ago, tawlaw1526 said:

Hummm….video appears to be deleted on the OP.    

Weird. I'll see if I can attach again.

[HaveDogWillTravel]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Let's say you have two ports 250 miles apart, and originally the itinerary gives the ship 14 hours to transit (kind of typical for an overnight sailing between ports), requiring a speed of 17.8 knots.  Now, if you cut two hours off the port time, and increase the transit time by two hours, or 16 hours, the speed required drops to 15.6 knots.  Now, while to you the drop of 2.2 knots from the ship's speed doesn't seem like it would amount to much, ship's speed (power required to move it) and fuel consumption is not linear but exponential, and that 1 knot of speed could result in a 15% fuel savings. 

Thank you for this clear explanation of the fuel savings. I’ll add that more time at sea is more time that the casino and shops are open (in most cases).   Saving money on fuel and making money in casino & shops makes my stocks worth more. 

[highloyo]

Posted on July 26 Roll Call for Ruby.