Norway Fjord Restricted in 2025

[St Pete Cruiser]

We were advised onboard the Noordam back in April that Norway will restrict cruise ships from entering their "best" Unisco fjords beginning in 2025, unless they are zero emissions powered. Read electric as LNG still have emissions. Hurtigruten has a diesel powered ship that can run on battery as do some Scandinavian ferries. A friend forwarded a pic of the Viking Jupiter in Eidfjord along with the Statendam showing the blue emissions from the Jupiter despite Vikings claim of being a clean hybrid ship. I can understand Norway's reluctance to have their pristine fjords polluted. 

[ExpatBride]

This is old news.

[Heidi13]

3 minutes ago, St Pete Cruiser said:

We were advised onboard the Noordam back in April that Norway will restrict cruise ships from entering their "best" Unisco fjords beginning in 2025, unless they are zero emissions powered. Read electric as LNG still have emissions. Hurtigruten has a diesel powered ship that can run on battery as do some Scandinavian ferries. A friend forwarded a pic of the Viking Jupiter in Eidfjord along with the Statendam showing the blue emissions from the Jupiter despite Vikings claim of being a clean hybrid ship. I can understand Norway's reluctance to have their pristine fjords polluted. 

 

 

Not sure where you are getting your information regarding Viking. At no time have Viking stated that the Jupiter, which was ocean ship # 6, is a clean hybrid ship. The Jupiter has 4 medium speed prime movers in a diesel/electric system, with exhaust gas scrubbers. It has no LNG or Hydrogen propulsion options. The Jupiter is a clean ship, but is not zero emission.

 

Your photo may have white balance issues, as having spent 100 days on ship # 4, most of the emissions were white, which is mostly steam or water vapour.

 

Viking's hybrid ships are starting with the latest ship ( # 10), which has a small hydrogen fuel cell, with the technology being expanded in the next vessel (# 11) entering service next year.

[cruisemom42]

Also, the ban on certain UNESCO enrolled fjords (including Geiranger and Flam) does not begin until January 1, 2026, so the 2025 season is still planned.

 

 

[St Pete Cruiser]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Also, the ban on certain UNESCO enrolled fjords (including Geiranger and Flam) does not begin until January 1, 2026, so the 2025 season is still planned.

 

 

You are correct. Thanks. Two seasons after this year.

[Heartgrove]

Trade publications written with information supplied by Viking/Fincantieri have claimed that they are hybrid ships. Even Viking's own publications:

 

"Viking Star and her sister ships feature energy-efficient hybrid engines, a hydrodynamically optimized streamlined hull for maximum fuel efficiency and equipment that limits exhaust."

 

[Heidi13]

11 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

Trade publications written with information supplied by Viking/Fincantieri have claimed that they are hybrid ships. Even Viking's own publications:

 

"Viking Star and her sister ships feature energy-efficient hybrid engines, a hydrodynamically optimized streamlined hull for maximum fuel efficiency and equipment that limits exhaust."

 

 

I also read lots of trade publications and have been in the Engine Room of Viking Sun. They are fitted with 4 x MAN 32/44 Common Rail, medium speed diesels capable of burning heavy FO in a Diesel/Electric configuration, which is standard for most cruise ships. Two are 9 cylinder and the other two are 12 cylinder.

 

When in the Engine Room, we were not advised of any high voltage batteries that would be required for a hybrid system and I have not seen any publication mention batteries. When I looked at the power distribution board I do not recall seeing any input source from high voltage batteries.

 

I have sailed with similar MAN engines and they certainly weren't hybrids.

[Heartgrove]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

I also read lots of trade publications and have been in the Engine Room of Viking Sun. They are fitted with 4 x MAN 32/44 Common Rail, medium speed diesels capable of burning heavy FO in a Diesel/Electric configuration, which is standard for most cruise ships. Two are 9 cylinder and the other two are 12 cylinder.

 

When in the Engine Room, we were not advised of any high voltage batteries that would be required for a hybrid system and I have not seen any publication mention batteries. When I looked at the power distribution board I do not recall seeing any input source from high voltage batteries.

 

I have sailed with similar MAN engines and they certainly weren't hybrids.

 

Yes, I agree with you with that being the case. My point is the quote I provided is from Viking's own website. It is Viking that is referring to their ships as "hybrids."  This is the page that has the quote I referenced.

 

https://www.vikingcruises.com/oceans/video/ships/viking-star-built-to-be-green/play.html

[Hlitner]

I would note that the two new Princess builds (to be delivered in the next 2 years)  and some future RCI ships will be powered by LNG.  I have also wondered how long before some environmental groups force a similar "zero-emission" policy for cruises to places like Glacier Bay.

 

Hank

[POA1]

How do they charge the batteries with zero emissions? Even if you charge from solar, there are a lot of emissions to make the panels.

 

I guess this means sail only and there are going to be bunch of sailboats stuck against the fjord walls until the wind changes.

[cruisemom42]

44 minutes ago, POA1 said:

How do they charge the batteries with zero emissions? Even if you charge from solar, there are a lot of emissions to make the panels.

 

I guess this means sail only and there are going to be bunch of sailboats stuck against the fjord walls until the wind changes.

 

From what I've read I gather they are thinking of some type of dual system with batteries + an alternate source of fuel. The batteries would be used for cruising the fjords. Once clear of the protected fjords, the alternate power source could be used (and I suppose could also be employed to recharge the batteries).

 

Currently I think battery power for this usage is up to about 4 hours but that is anticipated to increase. This is all gleaned from various online sources, some of which may not be fully current.

[St Pete Cruiser]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I would note that the two new Princess builds (to be delivered in the next 2 years)  and some future RCI ships will be powered by LNG.  I have also wondered how long before some environmental groups force a similar "zero-emission" policy for cruises to places like Glacier Bay.

 

Hank

I was not aware that Princess had any new builds coming. 

The Holland America staff always say LNG is too limited in locations they cruise to.

[Hlitner]

14 minutes ago, St Pete Cruiser said:

I was not aware that Princess had any new builds coming. 

The Holland America staff always say LNG is too limited in locations they cruise to.

The two new Princess ships are a new class (175,000 tons) 4000 capacity that are said to be partially powered by LNG,  I am assuming (and this is all speculation) that they will have kind of backup power that uses traditional fuel.  The issue of availability of LNG has been discussed (elsewhere on CC) and can be an issue in some parts of the world.  But we are told that with more commercial ships using LNG, the availability should rapidly improve.  

 

When we first heard about the trend towards LNG, my first thought was that LNG might pose some new risk of accident/explosion.  A few of the mariner experts here on CC, one of whom was a chief engineer (on cruise ships and other commercial vessels) said that LNG is quite safe in a marine environment.  You can google "LNG powered ships" and read some interesting articles.  I believe that CCL has ordered 4 LNG powered ships (2 for Princess and 2 for Aida) although my info might no longer be correct.

 

Hank

[Heartgrove]

Havila Voyages, which is the new competitor for Hurtigruten in Norway, currently has two ships and soon will have four. They are true hybrids as they depend on batteries recharged by their diesel engines and can sail up to four hours on batteries alone.

 

MSC began sailing their new ship MSC Euribia on voyages to Norway in June that is fueled by LNG. A duel-fuel diesel engine can be configured to use LNG and switch back to diesel fuel by the flick of a switch. Normally it will burn 98% LNG and 2% Diesel but can run on 100% diesel as well. The 2% diesel when on LNG helps with the lubrication of the fuel system.

 

AIDA is currently sailing the AIDAnova and has taken delivery of AIDAcosmo, both are LNG fueled cruise ships.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Heartgrove

[VMax1700]

2 hours ago, POA1 said:

I guess this means sail only and there are going to be bunch of sailboats stuck against the fjord walls until the wind changes.

I don't know why, but I keep getting mental flashes of a Roman Galley with a crew of vegan oarsmen.  Is that ecologically friendly? hybrid? or just plain bonkers? 🤪

 

 

 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

29 minutes ago, VMax1700 said:

I don't know why, but I keep getting mental flashes of a Roman Galley with a crew of vegan oarsmen.  Is that ecologically friendly? hybrid? or just plain bonkers? 🤪

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since we're talking about the fjords here, a Viking longship with plenty of brawny Viking rowers might be more apt?

 

[VMax1700]

13 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Since we're talking about the fjords here, a Viking longship with plenty of brawny Viking rowers might be more apt?

 

whatever turns you on 😉🤣

I suppose that should really be: 'whatever rocks your boat' 😉

I was trying to work out which would possibly be the most vegan and none really filled that criteria.

Edited July 15, 2023 by VMax1700

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

Havila Voyages, which is the new competitor for Hurtigruten in Norway, currently has two ships and soon will have four. They are true hybrids as they depend on batteries recharged by their diesel engines and can sail up to four hours on batteries alone.

 

MSC began sailing their new ship MSC Euribia on voyages to Norway in June that is fueled by LNG. A duel-fuel diesel engine can be configured to use LNG and switch back to diesel fuel by the flick of a switch. Normally it will burn 98% LNG and 2% Diesel but can run on 100% diesel as well. The 2% diesel when on LNG helps with the lubrication of the fuel system.

 

AIDA is currently sailing the AIDAnova and has taken delivery of AIDAcosmo, both are LNG fueled cruise ships.

 

 

 

 

Right!! The Norwegians are serious people. As major oil exporters, they've built hydro projects to power domestic consumption. Enough to export power to their neighbours.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Norway

 

Leading the way.

[Heidi13]

10 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

 

Yes, I agree with you with that being the case. My point is the quote I provided is from Viking's own website. It is Viking that is referring to their ships as "hybrids."  This is the page that has the quote I referenced.

 

https://www.vikingcruises.com/oceans/video/ships/viking-star-built-to-be-green/play.html

 

I read their marketing materials, prior to booking the World Cruise with them. A little more research indicated they had exercised some literary liberties, expanding the truth somewhat. However, with respect to the new buildings, they will be, or closer to zero emissions.

 

Haven't researched hydrogen fuel cells, as I have never sailed with them, but note even LPG, which is cleaner burning, still needs to be mixed with some diesel for combustion. 

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I would note that the two new Princess builds (to be delivered in the next 2 years)  and some future RCI ships will be powered by LNG.  I have also wondered how long before some environmental groups force a similar "zero-emission" policy for cruises to places like Glacier Bay.

 

Hank

 

If Glacier Bay goes "zero emission", the LNG burning ships won't meet that criteria. LNG burns cleaner, but is used in dual fuel engines, with a small amount of diesel (about 2 - 5%), which is required for combustion.

 

My last command has since been converted to LNG, but she still uses a good amount of diesel every day.

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, POA1 said:

How do they charge the batteries with zero emissions? Even if you charge from solar, there are a lot of emissions to make the panels.

 

I guess this means sail only and there are going to be bunch of sailboats stuck against the fjord walls until the wind changes.

 

The Norwegians have zero emission ships that use solar panels. They also have smaller vessels using hydrogen fuel cells. Viking, I believe is the first cruise line, to plan for hydrogen fuel cell technology on larger ships.

 

I don't research as thoroughly in retirement, but I don't believe the hydrogen fuel cell technology for larger vessels has received Class approval, as yet. Since Viking have publicly announced that the next vessel will include this technology, I can only assume Viking, the shipyard and Class are working on approvals, as the ship is built.

 

Hopefully the Chief can assist, as he has an engineering background @chengkp75 

[POA1]

Neither hydrogen fuel cells nor solar panels are truly zero emissions. I'm pretty sure that you are limited to sail and tides. (I'm not aware of any ship sized hydroelectric.)

 

If I'm wrong and you can find fuel cells and solar panels in nature, I apologize.

Edited July 15, 2023 by POA1

[Heidi13]

7 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Neither hydrogen fuel cells nor solar panels are truly zero emissions. I'm pretty sure that you are limited to sail and tides. (I'm not aware of any ship sized hydroelectric.)

 

If I'm wrong and you can find fuel cells and solar panels in nature, I apologize.

 

If you are considering the manufacturing of the solar panels and hydrogen, followed by shipping to the end user and installation, then I concur they are not truly zero emission. Using that analogy, neither is sail truly zero emission, as some type of power is required for manufacturing the sails, masts, stays and associated hardware. Having used a manual palm & needle stitching canvas, I am well aware that it is impractical to complete even the extensive stitching on a sail manually.

 

The sailboat, while not producing emissions from the means of propulsion (once installed) still requires the production of power for operational systems and pax/crew requirements. Since the sails don't provide any electric power, the vessel still has to generate power.

 

Once installed and operational on a ship, I am not aware of any propulsion emissions from a solar vessel. Yes, the fuel cells emits water vapour and heated air, both of which are acceptable in zero emission zones. 

[Hlitner]

I want to thank both Heidi13 and chengkp (who is lurking somewhere) for all the professional mariner knowledge they contribute to these CC boards.  They have both taught me a lot about the industry.

 

Hank

[OlsSalt]

One more industry that can be saved by nuclear power - long-term US Navy best practices can show the cruise industry the way.