Carnival Panorama Propulsion Issues

[jsglow]

So one of the things I'd be asking in Miami if I were in charge is whether LA might be better served by Firenze/Breeze as their signature ships. The Dream Class has a better track record. Perhaps Panorama slots (and survives) better out of New Orleans, their #4 Eastern port. Again, 4 lost cruise revenue sailings is nothing to scoff about. The PV 7 day run is notoriously tough on hardware.

 

Here's another thing I just thought about.  You guys know that going forward they're going with an 8/6 schedule for Panorama. While I initially thought it to be totally about variety, that also seemingly takes pressure off 100% max speed runs. Spit ballin'.

[jsglow]

9 minutes ago, kwokpot said:

Given what you posted I wanted to ask for your advice. Our Panorama sailing isn't until April 20 but we currently have a flight booked on Southwest out of LAX on the day of disembarkation to Honolulu at 12:10pm. It looks like official disembarkation time is always listed at 9:00am for the Panorama. Given your experience with this ship and itinerary, will we have a problem making this flight? We plan to carryon our luggage so no checking luggage at the airport. Our alternatives is an evening flight at 6PM or later, or staying overnight in LA and catching a early morning flight the next day. We're boarding another cruise 3 days later, so staying overnight in LA wouldn't be a problem, but TBH I rather have more time in Honolulu than in LA. But flying the next day is an acceptable alternative. You have any personal thoughts on this? thank you for any insight you can give. 

Are you on a traditional 7 nighter with the 1,000 mile run from Cabo and the single sea day coming back? If YES, I'd recommend moving your flight. That's darn early. Things as simple as strong northerly headwinds can delay your Long Beach arrival by at least a couple hours.

[kwokpot]

2 minutes ago, jsglow said:

Are you on a traditional 7 nighter with the 1,000 mile run from Cabo and the single sea day coming back? If YES, I'd recommend moving your flight. That's darn early. Things as simple as strong northerly headwinds can delay your Long Beach arrival by at least a couple hours.

Yes, Cabo is last port stop then 1 seaday before disembarkation. My head seems to point to changing flights even though my heart likes the time the flight gets to our next destination. Thanks for your opinion! 

[TiredTrucker]

23 minutes ago, jsglow said:

So one of the things I'd be asking in Miami if I were in charge is whether LA might be better served by Firenze/Breeze as their signature ships. The Dream Class has a better track record. Perhaps Panorama slots (and survives) better out of New Orleans, their #4 Eastern port. Again, 4 lost cruise revenue sailings is nothing to scoff about. The PV 7 day run is notoriously tough on hardware.

 

Here's another thing I just thought about.  You guys know that going forward they're going with an 8/6 schedule for Panorama. While I initially thought it to be totally about variety, that also seemingly takes pressure off 100% max speed runs. Spit ballin'.

 

I'm on her in March, haven't heard anything about switching to 8/6 runs, where'd you see the details on that?

[TiredTrucker]

34 minutes ago, kwokpot said:

Given what you posted I wanted to ask for your advice. Our Panorama sailing isn't until April 20 but we currently have a flight booked on Southwest out of LAX on the day of disembarkation to Honolulu at 12:10pm. It looks like official disembarkation time is always listed at 9:00am for the Panorama. Given your experience with this ship and itinerary, will we have a problem making this flight? We plan to carryon our luggage so no checking luggage at the airport. Our alternatives is an evening flight at 6PM or later, or staying overnight in LA and catching a early morning flight the next day. We're boarding another cruise 3 days later, so staying overnight in LA wouldn't be a problem, but TBH I rather have more time in Honolulu than in LA. But flying the next day is an acceptable alternative. You have any personal thoughts on this? thank you for any insight you can give. 

 

I have an 1130 flight out of Long Beach on disembarkation day, so in a similar boat.  At least we can use Southwest and they are flexible if we decide to change flight times.  We are still undecided on what to do.

[Old Fart Cruisers]

13 minutes ago, TiredTrucker said:

 

I have an 1130 flight out of Long Beach on disembarkation day, so in a similar boat.  At least we can use Southwest and they are flexible if we decide to change flight times.  We are still undecided on what to do.

 

If you book a later flight on Southwest and end up getting to the airport early, you can go stand by on an earlier flight for no additional cost.   If you booked it with 'Wanna get away plus' ($20.00 extra), you can fly CONFIRMED on an elier flight if there is space available for no additional cost. 

[mkcurran]

58 minutes ago, kwokpot said:

Given what you posted I wanted to ask for your advice. Our Panorama sailing isn't until April 20 but we currently have a flight booked on Southwest out of LAX on the day of disembarkation to Honolulu at 12:10pm. It looks like official disembarkation time is always listed at 9:00am for the Panorama. Given your experience with this ship and itinerary, will we have a problem making this flight? We plan to carryon our luggage so no checking luggage at the airport. Our alternatives is an evening flight at 6PM or later, or staying overnight in LA and catching a early morning flight the next day. We're boarding another cruise 3 days later, so staying overnight in LA wouldn't be a problem, but TBH I rather have more time in Honolulu than in LA. But flying the next day is an acceptable alternative. You have any personal thoughts on this? thank you for any insight you can give. 

With the ship fixed, you should be okay. You can roll off by 9am. Worse case you can grab the 6am out of Long Beach the next day. 

[jsglow]

1 hour ago, TiredTrucker said:

 

I'm on her in March, haven't heard anything about switching to 8/6 runs, where'd you see the details on that?

It came out when the new itineraries were announced. They do some in '24 but go exclusive 8/6 by '25.

[jsglow]

1 hour ago, kwokpot said:

Yes, Cabo is last port stop then 1 seaday before disembarkation. My head seems to point to changing flights even though my heart likes the time the flight gets to our next destination. Thanks for your opinion! 

I just want you to remember that Cabo is 1,000 miles away. Nassau to Miami is 185. Personally, I would not chance a noonish flight. We did Panorama last March where most folks weren't off the ship by noon. Just routine weather related delays; no actual problem. Understand that most folks sailing her drive to the port so you don't hear big uproars here on CC. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by jsglow

[TiredTrucker]

7 minutes ago, jsglow said:

It came out when the new itineraries were announced. They do some in '24 but go exclusive 8/6 by '25.

 

Oh, gotcha.  I thought you meant they made changes recently to the upcoming itineraries and I just missed it.

[kwokpot]

6 minutes ago, jsglow said:

I just want you to remember that Cabo is 1,000 miles away. Nassau to Miami is 185. Personally, I would not chance a noonish flight. We did Panorama last March where most folks weren't off the ship by noon. Just routine weather related delays; no actual problem. Understand that most folks sailing her drive to the port so you don't hear big uproars here on CC. 

I normally don't stress about this stuff but I know how crazy LA area can be. We did this itinerary in February but on the Solstice and Celebrity does the itinerary in reverse which I think is much better and we returned back to LB much earlier. I just went ahead and changed our flights to the next morning from LB airport and will stay in LB. The fares on Southwest are actually on sale now so we actually saved $30/pp. 

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, Ifixthings said:

I think you are mistaken.  How many ships have the same size azipod? I'm going with major repairs

Unless you also have over 4 decades of experience with maritime engine systems, similar to what the person you are debating with has, then your opinion means nothing. 

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, Ifixthings said:

All three vista class ships had the same issue

And you know these all had "the same" issue, and not just a problem announced as a "propulsion issue" or "issue affecting the top speed", generic terms about as descriptive as saying "my 3 Honda's had "car problems" and so this is a generic problem with Honda's"

7 hours ago, Ifixthings said:

I think you are mistaken.  How many ships have the same size azipod? I'm going with major repairs

Just a quick search showed that the 5 ships of the Spirit class have the same power (17Mw) azipods as the Vista class, as does the Venezia (also Vista class).  Then there are the 16 ships in RCI's fleet that have 17Mw or larger (same frame size) azipods.  And, I haven't searched any further into other lines, even within Carnival to see how many more are out there. 

 

A major repair to an azipod means pulling the propeller, and removing the "sub-assembly", which constitutes the propeller shaft, seal arrangement, and radial and thrust bearings.  You then install a reconditioned sub-assembly, and put the propeller back on.  If the sub-assembly is present in the shipyard when the ship arrives, this normally takes 4 days to accomplish.  Add a day on each end for docking and undocking.  Because of the size, it takes specialized air transport to quickly move one of these sub-assemblies, so that can add a few days to the process.  The damaged sub-assembly is sent back to ABB for reconditioning, and use in the next ship that needs one.  So, the major "wear parts" in azipods get traded back and forth between ships using the same frame size pods, so any "design problem" would be shared throughout the worldwide fleet.

Edited November 10, 2023 by chengkp75

[TiredTrucker]

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And you know these all had "the same" issue, and not just a problem announced as a "propulsion issue" or "issue affecting the top speed", generic terms about as descriptive as saying "my 3 Honda's had "car problems" and so this is a generic problem with Honda's"

Just a quick search showed that the 5 ships of the Spirit class have the same power (17Mw) azipods as the Vista class, as does the Venezia (also Vista class).  Then there are the 16 ships in RCI's fleet that have 17Mw or larger (same frame size) azipods.  And, I haven't searched any further into other lines, even within Carnival to see how many more are out there. 

 

A major repair to an azipod means pulling the propeller, and removing the "sub-assembly", which constitutes the propeller shaft, seal arrangement, and radial and thrust bearings.  You then install a reconditioned sub-assembly, and put the propeller back on.  If the sub-assembly is present in the shipyard when the ship arrives, this normally takes 4 days to accomplish.  Add a day on each end for docking and undocking.  Because of the size, it takes specialized air transport to quickly move one of these sub-assemblies, so that can add a few days to the process.  The damaged sub-assembly is sent back to ABB for reconditioning, and use in the next ship that needs one.  So, the major "wear parts" in azipods get traded back and forth between ships using the same frame size pods, so any "design problem" would be shared throughout the worldwide fleet.

 

So I have a question, if I may.  Are the number of Panorama breakdowns normal among all her peers or unique to her?

 

If she is less reliable, then why?

Edited November 10, 2023 by TiredTrucker

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

And you know these all had "the same" issue, and not just a problem announced as a "propulsion issue" or "issue affecting the top speed", generic terms about as descriptive as saying "my 3 Honda's had "car problems" and so this is a generic problem with Honda's"

Just a quick search showed that the 5 ships of the Spirit class have the same power (17Mw) azipods as the Vista class, as does the Venezia (also Vista class).  Then there are the 16 ships in RCI's fleet that have 17Mw or larger (same frame size) azipods.  And, I haven't searched any further into other lines, even within Carnival to see how many more are out there. 

 

A major repair to an azipod means pulling the propeller, and removing the "sub-assembly", which constitutes the propeller shaft, seal arrangement, and radial and thrust bearings.  You then install a reconditioned sub-assembly, and put the propeller back on.  If the sub-assembly is present in the shipyard when the ship arrives, this normally takes 4 days to accomplish.  Add a day on each end for docking and undocking.  Because of the size, it takes specialized air transport to quickly move one of these sub-assemblies, so that can add a few days to the process.  The damaged sub-assembly is sent back to ABB for reconditioning, and use in the next ship that needs one.  So, the major "wear parts" in azipods get traded back and forth between ships using the same frame size pods, so any "design problem" would be shared throughout the worldwide fleet.

All good comment, can you speak to the psoitive aspects to azipods as it related to the cruise industry?

[chengkp75]

53 minutes ago, TiredTrucker said:

 

So I have a question, if I may.  Are the number of Panorama breakdowns normal among all her peers or unique to her?

 

If she is less reliable, then why?

She does seem to have more problems than others, but I cannot say whether they are the same problems, or different ones each time.  It could be that the other ships are not set up with itineraries that require full speed, but Panorama is.  Many cruise ships travel for weeks with one diesel engine down for maintenance or overhaul, and no one knows anything about it, since the itinerary does not require the power from that one generator.  The engines are torn down for complete overhaul every 2 years, and this takes about 4 weeks to complete.  Now, whether Panorama's problems are engine related or azipod related, I can't say. 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

All good comment, can you speak to the psoitive aspects to azipods as it related to the cruise industry?

The major positive aspect of azipod propulsion is capital cost.  Instead of two shafted propellers, 2 high lift rudders, 4 steering systems, and 2-3 stern thrusters, you only have to buy 2 azipod systems.  The azipod system does also provide some increase in efficiency over shafted propulsion.  Since steering, propulsion, and side thrust are all combined in the two azipod controls, it provides a simpler learning curve, and requires less dexterity than the two engine telegraphs, thruster control, and helm control of the shafted propulsion, meaning it is easier to learn how to use them correctly.  However, the myth that azipods provide more maneuverability is just that, ships with shafted propellers, high lift rudders, and thrusters can maneuver just as well, it just takes more training to do so.

 

A drawback of azipods is that steering and propulsion are combined in one unit, so if a pod goes down, not only do you lose half the propulsion power, but you lose any redundancy in steering, which is why most ports require a ship with only one operating pod to have a tug escort the whole time they are in port, from sea buoy to sea buoy, since SOLAS requires redundancy of steering when in confined waters.

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The major positive aspect of azipod propulsion is capital cost.  Instead of two shafted propellers, 2 high lift rudders, 4 steering systems, and 2-3 stern thrusters, you only have to buy 2 azipod systems.  The azipod system does also provide some increase in efficiency over shafted propulsion.  Since steering, propulsion, and side thrust are all combined in the two azipod controls, it provides a simpler learning curve, and requires less dexterity than the two engine telegraphs, thruster control, and helm control of the shafted propulsion, meaning it is easier to learn how to use them correctly.  However, the myth that azipods provide more maneuverability is just that, ships with shafted propellers, high lift rudders, and thrusters can maneuver just as well, it just takes more training to do so.

 

A drawback of azipods is that steering and propulsion are combined in one unit, so if a pod goes down, not only do you lose half the propulsion power, but you lose any redundancy in steering, which is why most ports require a ship with only one operating pod to have a tug escort the whole time they are in port, from sea buoy to sea buoy, since SOLAS requires redundancy of steering when in confined waters.

Excellent post…thanks

[notscb]

@chengkp75 going above and beyond as always. Thanks so much for giving us such detailed info!

[jsglow]

It's just scary how much @chengkp75 knows about this stuff. I want Carnival to comp him a suite and set up an 'engineering lecture cruise' where we all get to tour the entire ship while he explains things. Yeah, I know none of our wives will go!