NCL's false advertising (-40/50%)

[CruiseMH]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:49 AM, MiniJeffrey said:

I'm getting a bit frustrated at NCL's marketing policies, which are with no doubt infractions to several false advertising laws in EU.

As ridiculous as these offers are i am sure that if they were really against the law then there would have been already several lawsuits of consumer protection organizations against NCL.

 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, schmoopie17 said:

I'm old enough to remember The Who. Apparently he's not...or it went right over his head.

Aha---The Who--I Won't Be Fooled Again.

 

They did a wonderful set at Woodstock playing basically their new at that time album Tommy. They followed Sly and the Family Stone. The Jefferson Airplane followed them concluding "Saturday's{ program though by the time they ended the sun had come up Sunday morning.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I just stepped off the Viva and received FREE MONEY from the nice CruiseNext folks.

[fshagan]

10 hours ago, CruiseMH said:

As ridiculous as these offers are i am sure that if they were really against the law then there would have been already several lawsuits of consumer protection organizations against NCL.

 

I read up on the laws and regulations from the FTC a few years back, and you would think it is illegal. Here's what a legal resource company says about it:

 

The FTC's Guides Against Deceptive Pricing generally require that a seller offer an item at a price for a reasonable, substantial period of time in good faith, and in the regular course of business, before advertising that price as the former or regular price (16 C.F.R. § 233.1). The FTC considers it deceptive to offer an item for sale at a higher price for a short period of time in order to support a claim that an item is discounted when the price is then lowered. This practice is prohibited.

Additionally, most states have consumer protection statutes that prohibit sellers from making false or misleading statements of fact concerning the reasons for, existence of, or amount of a price reduction (for example, Cal. Civ. Code § 1770(a)(13)). Several states also expressly regulate the length of time an item must be offered at a regular price and amount of time it is on sale (for more information, see Practice Notes, Promotional Pricing: Specific State Laws and "Up To" Discounting Law and Practice: Promotional Pricing: State-by-State Requirements).

From: this legal article. While they cite several retailers who lost suits including Penny's, Justice stores, Ann Taylor and Loft outlet stores, they don't list a case with any company outside of retail.

 

I suspect cruise lines get away with it because of the nature of their inventory. A blouse is a blouse, but a cabin on a cruise ship has many variables (length of cruise, ports visited, time of year, etc.) It might be harder to prove what normal pricing is when you bring the suit.

[sanger727]

This practice is so ingrained in marketing in the US; while people might  grumble about it, we are used to it. There are entire stores built around selling items for 50-75% off "retail" value. Which just means their tag lists "retail value $100, our price $50". The retail value is made up. We also are used to tax being on at the end of the purchase, tipping heavily, and having assorted fees stacked at the end of a transaction. Hotel price comparisons can be as complicated as cruise comparison when you account for the resort fee and other taxes/fees not given to you until you attempt to complete your transaction.

[graphicguy]

9 hours ago, fshagan said:

I read up on the laws and regulations from the FTC a few years back, and you would think it is illegal. Here's what a legal resource company says about it:

 

The FTC's Guides Against Deceptive Pricing generally require that a seller offer an item at a price for a reasonable, substantial period of time in good faith, and in the regular course of business, before advertising that price as the former or regular price (16 C.F.R. § 233.1). The FTC considers it deceptive to offer an item for sale at a higher price for a short period of time in order to support a claim that an item is discounted when the price is then lowered. This practice is prohibited.

Additionally, most states have consumer protection statutes that prohibit sellers from making false or misleading statements of fact concerning the reasons for, existence of, or amount of a price reduction (for example, Cal. Civ. Code § 1770(a)(13)). Several states also expressly regulate the length of time an item must be offered at a regular price and amount of time it is on sale (for more information, see Practice Notes, Promotional Pricing: Specific State Laws and "Up To" Discounting Law and Practice: Promotional Pricing: State-by-State Requirements).

From: this legal article. While they cite several retailers who lost suits including Penny's, Justice stores, Ann Taylor and Loft outlet stores, they don't list a case with any company outside of retail.

 

I suspect cruise lines get away with it because of the nature of their inventory. A blouse is a blouse, but a cabin on a cruise ship has many variables (length of cruise, ports visited, time of year, etc.) It might be harder to prove what normal pricing is when you bring the suit.

Same with hotel rates or flight fares.  Too many variables.  The costs aren't fixed, either.  Food, fuel, (which are negotiated sometimes at each individual port), docking fees, etc.  Those are all fluctuating costs.

 

Add in occupancy rates, and itineraries, and if the ship is new, old, big, small, etc and it becomes a labyrinth of a tremendous amount of moving parts and variables.  Probably the only costs that are fixed are labor and ship cost.

 

I know our European brothers and sisters don't seem to understand this, but I just returned from a 1 month trip to Spain, France and Italy.  I can tell you point blank, the hotels varied in cost day to day based on their occupancy rates on any given day.  They weren't static by any stretch.  I think their laws are focused mainly on fixed cost goods (like department store wares).

[DCGuy64]

17 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I can tell you point blank, the hotels varied in cost day to day based on their occupancy rates on any given day.

Same exact thing for us: when we booked our hotel in Rome, it was several months ago. The prices THEN were higher than the date for which we booked (which was in November). Hotel rates absolutely fluctuate. Since they're a moving target, it would be hard to argue whether or not a discounted rate was deceptive. Sometimes I'm grateful restaurants don't feature this kind of dynamic pricing!

[cruiser2015]

On 11/27/2023 at 7:48 AM, azappraiser said:

Actually, the dealer does pay "invoice" to the manufacturer; there are "incentives" that are paid  to the dealer after the vehicle is sold within 90 days.  If the car sits on the lot too long, it begins to cost money (interest payments) for flooring until it is eventually sold.

 

MSRP is the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, just like Published Full-Fares for cruises.

When you say the dealer pays invoice, I hope you don't mean the MSRP and/or the sticker on the car window, as this is not true.

There's a little beastie called a "dealer invoice". That's what the manufacturer charges the dealer, except that that figure may be adjusted by incentives as you mentioned. No relation to that window sticker.

[cruiser2015]

22 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Aha---The Who--I Won't Be Fooled Again.

 

They did a wonderful set at Woodstock playing basically their new at that time album Tommy. They followed Sly and the Family Stone. The Jefferson Airplane followed them concluding "Saturday's{ program though by the time they ended the sun had come up Sunday morning.

Show off.

 

A neighbor buddy of mine in Brooklyn tired to get there. Got bogged down in the traffic and had to turn around.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, cruiser2015 said:

Show off.

 

A neighbor buddy of mine in Brooklyn tired to get there. Got bogged down in the traffic and had to turn around.

Helps when you live fairly close, and the person driving knew the back roads.

 

Actually, I know how I got there, but have never figured out how I got home. 🤣🤦‍♂️

 

I actually met two others this past August on our Prima cruise who were also there. For the second one, I was on an elevator and a couple got on. The wife asked where I was from and when I said Monticello, she asked if I had been at Woodstock. I said yes, and she pointed at her husband and said so was he. I said I was 22; he said he was 17.

[cruiser2015]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Helps when you live fairly close, and the person driving knew the back roads.

 

Actually, I know how I got there, but have never figured out how I got home. 🤣🤦‍♂️

 

I actually met two others this past August on our Prima cruise who were also there. For the second one, I was on an elevator and a couple got on. The wife asked where I was from and when I said Monticello, she asked if I had been at Woodstock. I said yes, and she pointed at her husband and said so was he. I said I was 22; he said he was 17.

Smallish world, isn't it.

My age is smack in the middle.

I drove past the area a few years ago, traveling east on 17B, then past the bungalow colony in White Lake where we spent many summers.

My aunt's (by marriage) family used to own a hotel in town (Monticello). No idea if it still exists.

[v3cruiser]

I'm sure it gets the first time NCL cruisers excited. Heck, it still gets me excited from time to time. 

[JLS108]

On top of that they promise a price advantage if  the price drops. And guess what they don’t care to see the screenshots from the price, they did some math that makes absolutely no sense, changed all the numbers. And gave us a future credit that doesn’t add up. Suffice to say I am not really trusting NCL again.

[ontheweb]

15 hours ago, cruiser2015 said:

Smallish world, isn't it.

My age is smack in the middle.

I drove past the area a few years ago, traveling east on 17B, then past the bungalow colony in White Lake where we spent many summers.

My aunt's (by marriage) family used to own a hotel in town (Monticello). No idea if it still exists.

If you ever drive by again, the site of the original concert is now Bethel Woods Center for the Arts. There is a museum there dedicated to both the original Woodstock festival and the 1960s. There are outdoor concerts in the summer. We did not make it to any this past summer, but the previous summer did see Santana with Earth, Wind, and Fire opening, the Willie Nelson Outlaw tour, lots of groups on before Wille, but we only saw Luke Bryan and ZZ Top, and Phil Lesh with the Midnight Ramble Band (the band that used to back up Levon Helm). There are also some small indoor concerts, and we have tickets to see Judy Collins next month.

 

And no hotels, only a few motels, still exist in Monticello.

[graphicguy]

It's usually fallen my favor for promotions.  I know last year they had XX% off Alaska and European cruises (took advantage of both promos) via coupons they sent me.  Even being liberal with my math regarding the discount, NCL still charged me less than even my most ambitious expectation.

 

Same goes with military discounts.  It's supposed to be 10%.  Sometimes it's 12% (or more).  Sometimes it's 9%.  So, whatever software they use to apply the discounts, there's no real way to understand how they do it.  But, as mentioned, it always seems to be in my favor.

Edited November 29, 2023 by graphicguy

[cruiser2015]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

If you ever drive by again, the site of the original concert is now Bethel Woods Center for the Arts. There is a museum there dedicated to both the original Woodstock festival and the 1960s. There are outdoor concerts in the summer. We did not make it to any this past summer, but the previous summer did see Santana with Earth, Wind, and Fire opening, the Willie Nelson Outlaw tour, lots of groups on before Wille, but we only saw Luke Bryan and ZZ Top, and Phil Lesh with the Midnight Ramble Band (the band that used to back up Levon Helm). There are also some small indoor concerts, and we have tickets to see Judy Collins next month.

 

And no hotels, only a few motels, still exist in Monticello.

It's not a place that I would be passing with any regularity.

I knew about the PA center but not the museum.

I didn't think that Luke Bryan would do a venue that small.

Thanks for the info.

[cruiser2015]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

It's usually fallen my favor for promotions.  I know last year they had XX% off Alaska and European cruises (took advantage of both promos) via coupons they sent me.  Even being liberal with my math regarding the discount, NCL still charged me less than even my most ambitious expectation.

 

Same goes with military discounts.  It's supposed to be 10%.  Sometimes it's 12% (or more).  Sometimes it's 9%.  So, whatever software they use to apply the discounts, there's no real way to understand how they do it.  But, as mentioned, it always seems to be in my favor.

I'm new at using the military discount. Booked this past summer for January.2024.

I can't explain the 12% one, but if the discount % is smaller than 10%, please note that the discount only applies to the base cruise fare - not on fees, taxes, port charges, excursion, gratuities or upgrades.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, cruiser2015 said:

It's not a place that I would be passing with any regularity.

I knew about the PA center but not the museum.

I didn't think that Luke Bryan would do a venue that small.

Thanks for the info.

You're welcome. The museum is open until the end of December, and then reopens again in April.

 

I think the max for concerts is 15,000. Luke Bryan playing early before ZZ Top and finally Willie Nelson made is so much easier to get out of the parking lot as so many left after his set. Getting out after Santana who always sells out the venue is always impossible.

 

Here is the website for Bethel Woods including a link for the museum.

 

Bethel Woods New York: Concerts, Woodstock Museum & Holiday Lighting (bethelwoodscenter.org)

[cruiser2015]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

You're welcome. The museum is open until the end of December, and then reopens again in April.

 

I think the max for concerts is 15,000. Luke Bryan playing early before ZZ Top and finally Willie Nelson made is so much easier to get out of the parking lot as so many left after his set. Getting out after Santana who always sells out the venue is always impossible.

 

Here is the website for Bethel Woods including a link for the museum.

 

Bethel Woods New York: Concerts, Woodstock Museum & Holiday Lighting (bethelwoodscenter.org)

All three together - wow - I would have stayed.

I did not realize that the place was that large. That's arena sized,

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, cruiser2015 said:

All three together - wow - I would have stayed.

I did not realize that the place was that large. That's arena sized,

Yes, when you are outdoors, that's big. Our venue for Judy Collins next month is small, just a few hundred.

 

I hope you also looked at the museum link.

[bmwman]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:24 PM, BirdTravels said:

 

Nothing shameful at all. 

 

As you immediate recognize in your first sentence,,, it's called "marketing". If you are frustrated with NCL, then don't sail on NCL. But the grass is not greener on the other side... all cruise lines use similar "marketing". 

 

If you are trying to compare current prices,,, for anything,,, to something 3 years ago pre-covid, you are going to find that things are more expensive. In your country, is there anything that costs the same or less than it did 3 years ago? Why should a cruise line not be more expensive? Why should a cruise line not try to make up the losses of being unfairly singled out and shutdown for a protracted period,,, something no other travel industry business was subjected to? 

 

You read posts here on Cruise Critic all the time about people who saved money by re-booking after a new "sale sale sale" starts. 

Sadly as always you forget that the world is not the US. In the UK Free at Sea intial promotion  had to be modified as it infringed the standards we apply. It now shows as an upgrade.

[julig22]

52 minutes ago, bmwman said:

Sadly as always you forget that the world is not the US. In the UK Free at Sea intial promotion  had to be modified as it infringed the standards we apply. It now shows as an upgrade.

Not forgetting that the world in not the US.  But NCL is based in the US. And as you point out, the promotions have been modified for various markets - whether that's because they have country-specific sales sites or it's a requirement regardless, I do not know.  However, if they were forced to modify promotions, then it makes sense that they would also be forced to modify their marketing practices if they infringed on standards applied by other countries.

[cruiser2015]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, when you are outdoors, that's big. Our venue for Judy Collins next month is small, just a few hundred.

 

I hope you also looked at the museum link.

Sure did.

Thanks again.

[fshagan]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:41 AM, graphicguy said:

I know our European brothers and sisters don't seem to understand this, but I just returned from a 1 month trip to Spain, France and Italy.  I can tell you point blank, the hotels varied in cost day to day based on their occupancy rates on any given day.  They weren't static by any stretch.  I think their laws are focused mainly on fixed cost goods (like department store wares).

 

Rates are higher for tourists too. My daughter lived in Ireland and when we visited, and planned to stay a few nights in Kilkenny, her "local" price was about half what I was quoted as an American just minutes before.

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, fshagan said:

 

Rates are higher for tourists too. My daughter lived in Ireland and when we visited, and planned to stay a few nights in Kilkenny, her "local" price was about half what I was quoted as an American just minutes before.

My wife was born in Germany.  We were in a shop and the sales people were unaware she is fluent in German.  She overheard one sales person tell the other to jack up the prices for us Americans.