Dogs

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, the cruise line asks this, but do they ask you why you need a scooter?  Nope, and neither should they ask someone why they need a service dog.  The scooter makes your life easier and better, so does the service dog.  Service dogs are no different than your scooter or walker.

They  can and do ask what service is the dog trained to do.  It is my understanding that they do screen out those that do not answer that question that indicates that it is a service animal.

 

Unfortunately nothing to stop one from lying and giving a valid service response (provide comfort is not, react to ptsd episode is).

 

There are also some service animals that are trained to provide service that is not apparent. One that was more common before the modern monitoring tools were dogs trained to alert in case of high blood sugar levels for fragile diabetics). They were often small dogs that people would ridicule as not being service dogs.

 

One never really knows, but one would hope people would be honest and not make things more difficult for those that truly need service animals.

Edited April 9 by TRLD

[TRLD]

17 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

In the US, hotels cannot charge a fee for a service animal.  They can charge the fee for a pet or an Emotional Support Animal.  But, when the answer to the first question; "is that a service animal", is "yes", that is the end of the fee.

Though if a service animal causes a disruption, such as inappropriate behavior, the business can remove them from their property.

 

Of course thst is also a good indicator that it is not a true service animals.

 

There are some people with attorneys that seek out businesses in the US that are overly strict regarding service animals just for the purpose of having them create a situation where they can sue. Just as the same folks search out businesses not in compliance with ADA and then threaten them with a suite. Kind of legal blackmail.

 

 

[TiogaCruiser]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Thanks...

 

"Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.
A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.
Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.

How “Service Animal” Is Defined
Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA..."

 

Easy enough to ask a couple of questions. Then, impose a $500 deposit per dog, as hotels do. I would respect the company that is willing to do this.

Snip. “reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications,”

Anyone able to shed light on that one?

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, TRLD said:

They  can and do ask what service is the dog trained to do.

As I said.  But, they cannot ask what the other poster wanted to know, "why do you need the dog to perform this task".

 

5 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Though if a service animal causes a disruption, such as inappropriate behavior, the business can remove them from their property.

This is the DOJ "code of conduct" that I've mentioned, and with a business in the US, violation of this code by the dog can result in the business owner having the dog removed.  But, as I've said, in Spector, SCOTUS has said that "internal policies" like this code of conduct are up to the flag state's jurisdiction, not the US ADA.

 

1 minute ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Snip. “reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications,”

Anyone able to shed light on that one?

I don't know about medications for mental illness, but I have seen service animals (at the time, it was a Capuchin monkey) that reminded a woman to take medications (believe they were anti-seizure meds).  The animal reacts to various stimuli from the owner that they are going into whatever state the medications are designed to prevent, and the dog will "alert" to the owner, reminding them to take the medication.

[peanutter]

Not a HAL ship but a sister company, Princess Discovery - Hawaii r/t that ended 3-31-24.  We had a "service" dog onboard - evidently on our same deck as we saw it a lot.  Sorry, but it was obviously not a real service dog as I saw it various times alone with the man, then alone with the woman, then them together in the Piazza, buffet, laundry room, really just everywhere.  I'm not an expert by any stretch but have never heard of a service dog being trained for two different people?!  And if it was trained for just one of them, it's a mystery to me how it could signal, let's say, a low glucose level when its "patient" was possibly on a separate deck? 

 

I said nothing to the owners but also did not coo over the dog when it was in the laundry with me (as it barked non-stop as others had the nerve to be in its presence).  I did share my thoughts with Princess.  FWIW, we had a professional service dog on a previous cruise just this year (HAL or Celebrity, can't remember which) and he was a pleasure to watch work with his blind companion. No problem with the real deal but just do not want to see the ship covered up with companion dogs in the future (like I now see everywhere - flights, Lowe's, grocery stores, etc.)  

[albingirl]

Where I live, in Florida, dogs are not legally allowed on the beach, but people bring them on all the time.  As the saying goes, rules for thee and not for me. 

[TRLD]

51 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Snip. “reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications,”

Anyone able to shed light on that one?

Do a search on psychiatric service dog. Numerous articles on what service dogs can be trained to do for those with diagnosed conditions.

[House_Atreides]

51 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Snip. “reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications,”

Anyone able to shed light on that one?

Hi, yes I can answer your question.

A person, for example, with a panic disorder, will begin to “accelerate” before the actual panic attack begins.  The dog will smell a change in hormones, and alert the handler that they need to take medication, if so prescribed.

Another example is dogs are attuned to routine.  The dog will notice if someone has not taken medications for their illness. 
I hope this helps

[Kay S]

This thread is silly.  Does anyone know for sure if the specific dog in the stroller photos was or was not a service animal?  I know CC food fights can be lots of fun, but why the anti-dog sentiment?  In many parts of the world, you see dogs in restaurants and inside retail stores.  Most of the people who live in those countries seem to be just fine, no dog-related traumas.

 

I still think that little dog in the stroller is very cute, and I would tell the lady with the stroller exactly that. 😝

[Mary229]

18 minutes ago, Kay S said:

This thread is silly.  Does anyone know for sure if the specific dog in the stroller photos was or was not a service animal?  I know CC food fights can be lots of fun, but why the anti-dog sentiment?  In many parts of the world, you see dogs in restaurants and inside retail stores.  Most of the people who live in those countries seem to be just fine, no dog-related traumas.

 

I still think that little dog in the stroller is very cute, and I would tell the lady with the stroller exactly that. 😝

What if all 2000 of us decided to bring along our cute animals.  Some of use had 2 or 3 very cute animals we would like to bring, is that ok?

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

In the US, hotels cannot charge a fee for a service animal.  They can charge the fee for a pet or an Emotional Support Animal.  But, when the answer to the first question; "is that a service animal", is "yes", that is the end of the fee.

 

I'm not talking about the occupancy fee for a dog. I'm referring to a damages deposit, just as hotels charge a damages deposit for the room.

 

A sick or badly trained dog could damage the carpet or bedding/mattress. Hopefully, the hotel/ship will throw the soiled $$$ items away and replace them. Charging the animal's owner.

 

I certainly would not want to be the next occupant if the room has not been thoroughly renewed!

 

What would you do if you board a ship and the room had a pungent smell, and the ship is 100% occupied?

 

As you pointed out, the ship has some latitude on 'internal' matters. Hope that the cruise industry has some respect for its general pax.

 

 

[Mary229]

3 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

 

Can a 'concerned passenger' make that enquiry of Guest Services?  i.e. "I have seen a passenger with a dog.  Can you tell me what service the dog provides to the passenger?"  Or will 'privacy concerns' be quoted?

A person who reports is not entitled to an explanation.  I get that but I would still report.  HAL needs to understand that they are going to have to flex muscle to enforce what they are allowed by law to enforce.  1. It is not fair to all the animal lovers who would also like to bring their animals and 2. It is an abuse of a system designed to assist those who have disabilities 3. It is unfair to pax who don’t want to live next door to animals 

Edited April 9 by Mary229

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

I'm not talking about the occupancy fee for a dog. I'm referring to a damages deposit, just as hotels charge a damages deposit for the room.

Even that is not allowed.  Even if they charge a damage deposit for pets, they cannot for a service animal.  A service animal is treated in law the same as a wheelchair, it is a medical device.

[3rdGenCunarder]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, it is a question of "law or not law".  Your state has a law about getting a doctor's letter for a handicap placard.  That is the law.  The law that governs service animals, the ADA, a federal law, specifically states that establishment owners can only ask two questions regarding service dogs;  one, "is that a service animal", and two "what service is the dog trained to provide for the owner".  That's it.  That is the law, and asking any other questions is against the law.  Now, SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, that foreign flag cruise ships do not fall entirely under the ADA.  Specifically, the cruise ship's "internal policies and procedures" are not subject to the ADA.  So, while the ADA requires the cruise line to have accessible cabins, and to not charge more for accessible cabins, the policy of requiring documentation to obtain an accessible cabin is up to the cruise line.  Their determination as to whether or not to allow you to book an accessible cabin (their internal policy) is different than their ability to not allow you onboard due to your disability (ADA requirement).  Asking whether or not a person needs a service animal onboard is to question and possibly deny that person accommodation on the ship (illegal under the ADA, and not an "internal policy")

 

I have clicked the thank you icon on several of your posts, but I want to comment to thank you for this this. The bold I added sums up the situation. it sounds like the same thing to ask "what is the dog trained to do" and "what is your medical need for the dog" but they are not the same according to the law. 

 

Medical privacy is a big deal and the "service dog" cheats know this. The annoying part is anyone with a clue about animals (or pet owners) can tell a fake from the real deal. I've seen real service dogs on cruises, and they're calm. They don't jump up to greet people. They don't try to sit on the furniture. They don't expect handouts from the dinner table. And if you go to pet them, their owners say "I'm sorry, but my dog is working" or something like that, not "He's friendly, go ahead. Isn't he adorable?" In one of the pictures a page or two ago, a dog in a stroller is being petted by other passengers. Unless the dog was "off duty," that's a no-no.

 

If you see what you think is a fake service dog, report it. But don't expect any explanation or answer from the ship. 

 

[Bostonjetset]

41 minutes ago, Kay S said:

…why the anti-dog sentiment?  In many parts of the world, you see dogs in restaurants and inside retail stores.  Most of the people who live in those countries seem to be just fine, no dog-related traumas.

Maybe we’re cat people?

 

In all seriousness though, I don’t think it’s anti-dog sentiment as much as it’s anti-rule-breaker sentiment. Most of us have no issue with legitimate service dogs. Beyond being allowed under the law, they are legitimately helping someone in need. It’s the people who bring their pet dogs onboard under false pretenses when the rest of us aren’t allowed to do that. 

 

It’s not that same as retail stores that allow pets as they would also allow me to bring my cat in if I wanted to but HAL would not because he’s clearly not a service cat (as he can’t be according to the ADA laws). Not saying I would, but I’d be allowed to bring him to a place like Home Depot just like the women with the stroller dog.

[durangoscots]

6 hours ago, Niagarawine said:

These are not service dogs.

They are indeed service dogs..... otherwise you would be restricting the person who needs them. Service dogs will lie under the table in a food establishment. They do not eat at the table. By the way.... I can not see taking a non-service dog on a cruise.  I would spend more time caring for the dogs than enjoying the cruise. I have two dogs.... I just finished a 94 day cruise. My dogs have been taught to board and are familiar with the kennels and they evidently had a blast since they were not particularly happy to see me home. I am now broke from bailing them out but it is Part of the cost of cruising that I figure in when planning.

[cccole]

I think that post #84 which calls this thread "silly" misses the point of this thread.  So many of us have dogs that we would love to bring on our cruise and think our pet is loved by all.  But most of us do not appreciate those that abuse the law by lying to the cruise line when asked 2 questions.  As post #91, we spend a lot of money to have someone come to our home to stay with our dog when we are gone.  To then go on a cruise where someone thinks the rules don't apply to them  and bring their family pet on the cruise is really frustrating.  Service animals are so important and should always be appreciated for the service they provide to the person they are with.  Service animals save lives.  But...should I put a fake vest on our 16 year old, adorable dog and lie about why he is accompanying us on a cruise or aircraft?  We can all lie and bring our family pet onboard.  What would HAL do then?   JMO. Cherie 

[Niagarawine]

40 minutes ago, durangoscots said:

They are indeed service dogs..... otherwise you would be restricting the person who needs them. Service dogs will lie under the table in a food establishment. They do not eat at the table. By the way.... I can not see taking a non-service dog on a cruise.  I would spend more time caring for the dogs than enjoying the cruise. I have two dogs.... I just finished a 94 day cruise. My dogs have been taught to board and are familiar with the kennels and they evidently had a blast since they were not particularly happy to see me home. I am now broke from bailing them out but it is Part of the cost of cruising that I figure in when planning.read baby buggy

[cccole]

Then you haven't followed the apparent abuses of "service dog" threads.  The "supposed fraud" seems to be the only complaint.  Service dogs are always welcome and appreciated for what they do.  Enjoy you cheap entertainment, but it is not pointless to many of us.   It's also amusing that since you have never seen it it doesn't exist.  Cherie

Edited April 9 by cccole

[Haljo1935]

4 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

Or, "I understand that service dogs are carefully trained, and if the dog acts out it is most likely not a service dog. Here is my video of what the dog was doing out on the promenade as his owner stood by, smiling."

Multiple videos and time stamped pictures have generally not impacted the number of imposters on HAL ships, not on the K'dam, anyway.

[Haljo1935]

5 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I agree, never would I confront another passenger. I would report them and if I feel they are abusing the ADA I would report them at every level.  I would throw the book at them.   HAL needs to understand we are not good with this.  

@Wehwalt it's difficult not to say something to a human whose dog runs into your cabin; it's equally difficult to not say anything to a human whose dog poops in an elevator. It can (and has) be done, but passengers on a cruise ship shouldn't even have to consider being in that position. 

[Haljo1935]

3 hours ago, TRLD said:

...One never really knows, but one would hope people would be honest and not make things more difficult for those that truly need service animals.

And here is where the problems begin - people are not being honest.

People bring pets onboard which IMO is disrespectful of true service animals and the humans they assist. They should make arrangements to have their animals cared for off-ship - that's what I do, as much as I may want 1 or 2 of my dogs to cruise with me. I would NEVER consider representing my pet as a service animal.

[Petronillus]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The cruise lines are well aware of the ADA requirements.  They are also well aware of the bad PR they can get from disallowing someone who claims to have a service animal that really isn't.

Is it lawful for the United States to claim jurisdiction over a foreign-flagged ship? How is it that HAL, whose ships are flagged in the Netherlands, must comply with the ADA (AMERICANS with Disabilities Act)? Is this a point of admiralty law?

Is it that Holland America Line and its parent, Carnival Cruise Lines, are headquartered in the US and that CCL is listed on the NYSE?

[cccole]

37 minutes ago, Kay S said:

I ask again, does anyone know for sure that the dog in the stroller is not a legitimate service dog?  Isn't this what the kids call "Karen " behavior, someone who feels entitled to pass judgement on things without always knowing the full story?  Hey, bring your dogs.  I love dogs.  I would be happy to see all of your fur babies all over the ship.  I might sneak all of them a treat under the table.  However, I wonder how widespread this supposed "fraud" is on cruise ships since I have never seen more than the occasional service dog, and most voyages, seen none.  

 

Gotta love these pointless CC food fights.  Cheap entertainment. 🐕‍🦺

We are moving to Hawaii and our 16 year old dog would not do well in the pet compartment of an aircraft. You give me encouragement to lie about why he could be with us on a cruise.  You're awesome.  My kids don't do the "Karen" thing but some do pass judgement when they do not know what the full story is.   Enjoy your cheap entertainment and future cruises.  Cherie 

[Kay S]

34 minutes ago, cccole said:

It's also amusing that since you have never seen it it doesn't exist.  Cherie

Can you direct me to these ships with wanton service dog abuse?  I want to book on one.  Since I don't have a dog of my own, this looks like cuddling opportunity. 😄😄😄