Dogs

[Toad]

Just curious, does HAL have designated “dog” cabins like certain hotels, cause I bet “Fluffy” sleeps with his owner.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

This whole issue is crazy . The real question is why is a service dog required by a passenger ?  First is the why & then 2nd is  it really necessary for the animal to ne with that person  .Perhaps a medical doctor must approve  that the person must have the animal with them before it is allowed on a cruise ship aside from the ADA guidelines

Really?  You feel that people who need service animals should not be allowed in certain places?  Or that they shouldn't have a service animal at all?  And, it is not ADA "guidelines" that regulate whether or not service animals can be on cruise ships, it is law.  So, in order to cruise with a service animal, you are saying that a doctor needs to prescribe the service animal, when the law does not require this?  Why is a cruise any different than taking a service dog to Yellowstone, staying in a hotel there, and eating in a restaurant, all with the service dog, and all allowed under the law?

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Toad said:

Just curious, does HAL have designated “dog” cabins like certain hotels, cause I bet “Fluffy” sleeps with his owner.

No, they don't, just like not all hotels (as you mention) have rooms set aside for dogs.

[mcrcruiser]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Really?  You feel that people who need service animals should not be allowed in certain places?  Or that they shouldn't have a service animal at all?  And, it is not ADA "guidelines" that regulate whether or not service animals can be on cruise ships, it is law.  So, in order to cruise with a service animal, you are saying that a doctor needs to prescribe the service animal, when the law does not require this?  Why is a cruise any different than taking a service dog to Yellowstone, staying in a hotel there, and eating in a restaurant, all with the service dog, and all allowed under the law?

that was not my point . My point is can any one just say that they must have their servive dog & be under the law . It is a funny thing that  when I book a handicap cabin ,the cruise line wants to know what I am bringing with me like my electric scooter or my wife's walker  .So isn't it reasonable for the cruise line  to ask a person why do you need a service dog ?  This is not a discussion of law ot not law it is a discussion for you need a handicap cabin or not & do you really need a service dog or not . To get a handicap  license plate of mirror handicap placard you must have a doctors letter to DMV . Thus ,all I am saying to you is that the person show need from a MD in writing 

[HappyInVan]

15 hours ago, House_Atreides said:

As a service dog trainer of many years, service dogs do NOT ride in strollers.  Absolutely dogs provide many services, none of which are done for a stroller.  Teeny dogs can be service dogs in a few capacities, NOT working from a stroller.

 

These owners disgust me.

 

+1

 

Its a sad sign of the times that many people need companion dogs. And, don't realize that companion dogs are not the same as the well-trained and necessary service dogs. 

 

I just don't understand why airlines and cruise lines won't tighten the rules.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/united-airlines-flight-diverted-after-dog-pooped-in-aisle-2024-4

 

 

[daisy-mae]

2 hours ago, Navybikermom said:

When I was on the Prinsendam, one of the entertainers (Melissa Manchester) had a small dog with her. It did not have a vest on. I didn’t see it in the dining room, but did see it in other parts of the ship. I wonder if entertainers have a different rule set? 🤔

We were on a Celebrity ship with a magician whose performance included two identical dogs (make one disappear then the other reappears). He explained that the jig was up when passengers saw him walking both dogs at the same time. I don't think he took them into the dining room.

[Wehwalt]

2 hours ago, AKJonesy said:

Hmmmm.  Looks an awful lot like this Temu $10 harness.  Could be wrong but I doubt legitimate service dog harnesses are coming from Temu.  

There is endless stuff available on Amazon. Official looking service dog ID cards, harnesses with tags that say "PROTECTED BY FEDERAL LAW" and "DO NOT SEPARATE FROM HANDLER" and similar things that enable the fraudster. Some of them have a Department of Justice seal on them which does well to intimidate anyone who might question it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=service+dog&crid=2E4G27AM1PDTX&sprefix=%2Caps%2C422&ref=nb_sb_ss_recent_1_0_recent

 

 

[chengkp75]

Yes, it is a question of "law or not law".  Your state has a law about getting a doctor's letter for a handicap placard.  That is the law.  The law that governs service animals, the ADA, a federal law, specifically states that establishment owners can only ask two questions regarding service dogs;  one, "is that a service animal", and two "what service is the dog trained to provide for the owner".  That's it.  That is the law, and asking any other questions is against the law.  Now, SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, that foreign flag cruise ships do not fall entirely under the ADA.  Specifically, the cruise ship's "internal policies and procedures" are not subject to the ADA.  So, while the ADA requires the cruise line to have accessible cabins, and to not charge more for accessible cabins, the policy of requiring documentation to obtain an accessible cabin is up to the cruise line.  Their determination as to whether or not to allow you to book an accessible cabin (their internal policy) is different than their ability to not allow you onboard due to your disability (ADA requirement).  Asking whether or not a person needs a service animal onboard is to question and possibly deny that person accommodation on the ship (illegal under the ADA, and not an "internal policy")

[mawvkysc]

https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

 

No opinion. Just FYI for the thread. 

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

It is a funny thing that  when I book a handicap cabin ,the cruise line wants to know what I am bringing with me like my electric scooter or my wife's walker 

Yes, the cruise line asks this, but do they ask you why you need a scooter?  Nope, and neither should they ask someone why they need a service dog.  The scooter makes your life easier and better, so does the service dog.  Service dogs are no different than your scooter or walker.

[mcrcruiser]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, it is a question of "law or not law".  Your state has a law about getting a doctor's letter for a handicap placard.  That is the law.  The law that governs service animals, the ADA, a federal law, specifically states that establishment owners can only ask two questions regarding service dogs;  one, "is that a service animal", and two "what service is the dog trained to provide for the owner".  That's it.  That is the law, and asking any other questions is against the law.  Now, SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, that foreign flag cruise ships do not fall entirely under the ADA.  Specifically, the cruise ship's "internal policies and procedures" are not subject to the ADA.  So, while the ADA requires the cruise line to have accessible cabins, and to not charge more for accessible cabins, the policy of requiring documentation to obtain an accessible cabin is up to the cruise line.  Their determination as to whether or not to allow you to book an accessible cabin (their internal policy) is different than their ability to not allow you onboard due to your disability (ADA requirement).  Asking whether or not a person needs a service animal onboard is to question and possibly deny that person accommodation on the ship (illegal under the ADA, and not an "internal policy")

Like you just posted the cruise ships do not come under USA ADA laws  since they are all foreign flag vessels . Look ,I want to be fair & above board for any one who is real need . what does covern me & perhaps other people is that animal /dog truly necessary ?

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Like you just posted the cruise ships do not come under USA ADA laws  since they are all foreign flag vessels . Look ,I want to be fair & above board for any one who is real need . what does covern me & perhaps other people is that animal /dog truly necessary ?

I did not say that the cruise ships "do not come under the ADA".  I said that the cruise ships do not fully have to comply with ADA.  Spector v NCL showed that foreign flag cruise ships do need to meet certain aspects of the ADA.  While I agree that there is abuse of the system in allowing dogs that are not true service animals to pose as such, unfortunately, until the ADA is changed, by Congress (and SCOTUS stated that if Congress changed the wording of the ADA to specifically mention foreign flag cruise ships, then all of the ADA would apply), then there is no way to guarantee that a service dog is a service dog.  If you want to change this, talk to the US Congress, who can't get anything done at all, let alone change an existing law.  A cruise line's hands are tied with regards to the questions that can be asked regarding a service animal.  Should the cruise line ask you whether or not "you really need" your scooter?

 

Part of my job when I worked for NCL was ADA compliance officer.

Edited April 9 by chengkp75

[Khlela]

For as much as people may judge and keep it internal I hope no one says anything to the individual. While I agree, there is ZERO reason for a true service dog to be in a stroller. That is clearly a violation but it's still no one elses business except for HAL. Be upset with them. 

There is NO required paperwork or "registration" for a service dog. This doesn't exisit. Which means there are no "official" service dog vests. Even individuals with true working service dogs tend to just purchase their own unless the trainers provided it for them. Service dogs must be trained for a specific task to assist with a disability or need for the individual and be well trained and well minded in order to qualify as as service dog. 

As someone else said legally you can only ask if it is a service animal and what task it performs. It's illegal to ask or demand anything else. 

Only dogs can be service animals at this time. Anything outside of a dog can be an emotional support animal but NOT a service animal. So we don't need silly statements as though horses are suddenly going to be ones as well. 

Service animals can go every, including locations with food. Someone disability doesn't suddenly disappear. Yes, this is unfortunate for those with allergies, but this is true for EVERYWHERE. If you go to a local restaurant, if you are in the US, you have a risk of a service animal being in there. 

The most anyone can and should do is report any concerns to the staff. Don't expect anything to change. People do abuse it and the ability for companies to "verify" a service dog is limited so it will never be easy to do without creating barriers for disabled individuals to get the service animals they need. 

[mcrcruiser]

as a 2nd thought cruise ships although foreign flagged vessels when in USA ports come under USA laws & most begining ports are USA based for the big 3 cruise lines  .Thus ,then they do come under ADA US laws  to be able to port their ships at USA ports . 

 

 True disabilities for people need to be met with support . Thus ,if the dog is a disability trained dog ,it should be with that passenger ;however ,there should also be guidelines what are the  disabilities that require a trained dog . 

 

 Personally  in over 100  ocean cruises we have not seen one support animal on any of our cruises . Thus ,we conclude it is very rare to see any service dog 

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, mawvkysc said:

https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

 

No opinion. Just FYI for the thread. 

 

Thanks...

 

"Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.
A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.
Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.

How “Service Animal” Is Defined
Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA..."

 

Easy enough to ask a couple of questions. Then, impose a $500 deposit per dog, as hotels do. I would respect the company that is willing to do this.

[Wehwalt]

2 hours ago, Khlela said:

For as much as people may judge and keep it internal I hope no one says anything to the individual.

Indeed. I agree wholeheartedly. I would not say anything to the individual. At all.

Edited April 9 by Wehwalt

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Indeed. I would not say anything to the individual. At all.

I agree, never would I confront another passenger. I would report them and if I feel they are abusing the ADA I would report them at every level.  I would throw the book at them.   HAL needs to understand we are not good with this.  

Edited April 9 by Mary229

[VMax1700]

12 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Indeed. I agree wholeheartedly. I would not say anything to the individual. At all.

 

10 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I agree, never would I confront another passenger. I would report them and if I feel they are abusing the ADA I would report them at every level.  I would throw the book at them.   HAL needs to understand we are not good with this.  

Can a 'concerned passenger' make that enquiry of Guest Services?  i.e. "I have seen a passenger with a dog.  Can you tell me what service the dog provides to the passenger?"  Or will 'privacy concerns' be quoted?

[Wehwalt]

2 hours ago, VMax1700 said:

 

Can a 'concerned passenger' make that enquiry of Guest Services?  i.e. "I have seen a passenger with a dog.  Can you tell me what service the dog provides to the passenger?"  Or will 'privacy concerns' be quoted?

Or, "I understand that service dogs are carefully trained, and if the dog acts out it is most likely not a service dog. Here is my video of what the dog was doing out on the promenade as his owner stood by, smiling."

[AKJonesy]

This thread reminds me of covid threads.  I've got the popcorn!  

[Seasick Sailor]

We were onboard the Rotterdam from Nov til Jan 2024 (53 days). We use an ADA cabin. (DH uses a wheelchair) 

 

I sent a note on Navigator ("Is it my imagination,  or is there a barking dog onboard?"  Guest Services called and said they investigated, and the dog was in an ADA room as a service animal. 

 

OK. AND? Sorry, that's all they got.. 

 

Later, we got in the elevator with a gentleman and his beautiful service animal. He said he had fallen and the dog caught the attention of the room steward, who came to the rescue. 

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

as a 2nd thought cruise ships although foreign flagged vessels when in USA ports come under USA laws & most begining ports are USA based for the big 3 cruise lines  .Thus ,then they do come under ADA US laws  to be able to port their ships at USA ports . 

Again, not quite correct, though the vast gray area of "overlapping jurisdiction" is one that keeps admiralty lawyers busy for years.  When in a US port, not all US laws apply to the ship.  Generally, international maritime law says that things that affect the "safety and well being" of the port state (things external to the ship like customs duties, commerce (like gambling, store sales, and liquor laws), pollution, and safety of the ship) fall under the "port state's" (country where the ship is located) laws apply.  But, things that are internal to the ship (like wages, labor laws, etc) fall under the jurisdiction of the "flag state".  As the cruise ship offers "accommodation" (rooms and meals) to the public in the US when in a US port, then they have to follow the US' ADA laws with regards to accessibility for those with disabilities.  Technically, once the ship leaves US waters, the ADA no longer applies, but cruise lines will continue to abide by the requirements since it is easier to accept the ADA requirements all the time, than to switch back and forth from accepting them to not adhering to them.

 

This is why SCOTUS stated that unless Congress specifically mentions foreign flag cruise ships in the ADA, then the foreign flag cruise ships do not have to meet all of the requirements of the ADA.  Further, SCOTUS ruled that international regulations like SOLAS can overrule the ADA in certain instances.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, VMax1700 said:

 

Can a 'concerned passenger' make that enquiry of Guest Services?  i.e. "I have seen a passenger with a dog.  Can you tell me what service the dog provides to the passenger?"  Or will 'privacy concerns' be quoted?

Yes, a "concerned passenger" can make an enquiry at Guest Services, but the cruise line is not required to tell you what the end result of their investigation is.  It is up to the owner (cruise line) of the establishment (ship) to determine whether or not the dog meets the criteria of a service animal, and even then whether or not they want to discipline someone who has brought a non-service animal onboard.  That is their prerogative as a business owner.  It is your prerogative to decide whether or not you want to be a customer of that business, based on what the business owner's reaction to your inquiry is. 

[chengkp75]

57 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Or, "I understand that service dogs are carefully trained, and if the dog acts out it is most likely not a service dog. Here is my video of what the dog was doing out on the promenade as his owner stood by, smiling."

Again, you can say that the dog does not meet the DOJ's code of conduct for service animals, but that is an "internal policy" of the ship as to whether or not that code of conduct is applicable or not, so it falls to you to determine whether or not you agree with the business owner's policies as to whether or not you continue to use the business.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

Easy enough to ask a couple of questions. Then, impose a $500 deposit per dog, as hotels do. I would respect the company that is willing to do this.

In the US, hotels cannot charge a fee for a service animal.  They can charge the fee for a pet or an Emotional Support Animal.  But, when the answer to the first question; "is that a service animal", is "yes", that is the end of the fee.