What happens in a repositioning emergency

[jtsongas]

So, for obvious reasons, my partner and I were discussing cruise issues. We go on one or two cruises a year and this recent emergency is not going to slow us down. But, in our discussions we started talking about repositioning cruises and what would be done if an event like on Carnival happened. I cannot seem to find anything in searching but perhaps I am searching for the wrong things.

 

Any ideas what sort of thing would happen if lets say exactly what happened to Carnival Triumph happened but about 50% of the way between the US and Europe?

[Capt_BJ]

you'd be waiting a LOT longer for help

 

and the tow would also be many many more days ....

 

think this incident extended to two weeks . . .

 

as one who worked in this profession for over 30 years the very large ships scare me as a potentially HUGE problem when they have a problem

 

this is why, IMO, you ned to consider the overall reputation of the cruise company.

 

frankly, there are some lines I simply will not set foot on

 

(well I've had lunch on board while at the pier, but I leave b4 they single up the lines)

 

and one WILL have a problem .. again ...

[Waynetor]

It is not just the ships status that could be an issue in mid ocean - A critically ill passenger could be several days away from a hospital with no helicopter rescue possible.

[jtsongas]

Sure, a lot longer but essentials will run out and medical conditions will get bad very quickly. (Dear God, the alcohol will run out! :eek:) I only know how to sit on a deck chair and sip drinks, my maritime experience ends there but it just seems to me that sending a bunch of tugboats to the middle of the Atlantic to "retrieve" the ship is not going to be simple task. Thats not to say it was a simple task for the Carnival ship but I would imagine exponentially greater costs/risks/issues/failures/etc.

[smeyer418]

NCL ran a ship for a number of years around Hawaii and then because it was foreign flagged it had to go to Kiributi that was far away from anything. It didn't always make it because of on board Medical emergency. When ships are traveling across the Atlantic, they like airplanes follow a great circle route because its closer and in fact are never more than 2 days away from shore at normal speeds. The survivors of the Titanic as well as the bodies recovered were taken to Halifax because it was the closest port(there is an interesting cemetery in Halifax including one named Dawson-with the bodies of the dead from Titanic laid out in the outline of a ships hull) No ship has gotten stuck between Europe and the US....although a few have sunk. the Titanic and the Stockholm are two. Its extremely rare for a cruise ship to die completely like the Triumph did. In fact the new standards for SOLAS require that the ships have two separate systems so they can be brought to port in case one completely fails but most ships are under the old rules and will not be retrofitted.

In an emergency a US Navy ship can be there within days as was sent when the Splendor lost power. In an real emergency they could send another ship and transfer the passengers ever with that being fairly dangerous and not worry about the fact that it would be technically overloaded(ask the Carpathia)

[navybankerteacher]

Because Carnival ships have twice recently lost all power and were unable to effect repairs, I would not contemplate sailing on them. It does not matter whether it is defective equipment or deficient training, the fact is that Carnival ships have shown a pattern of being unable to handle small fires. Letting the fires happen is one thing: either bad equipment or bad handling. Letting the fires knock out critical elements is another. Being unable to restore those is a third. Taken together, the three aspects comprise valid reason to avoid those ships -- until such time as line management demonstrates that effective remedial steps -- dealing with equipment, staffing and training. -- have been taken.

 

Other ships, on other lines may also have comparable problems, but since they have not repeatedly demonstrated them, I am not so inclined to avoid them.

[calliopecruiser]

So, for obvious reasons, my partner and I were discussing cruise issues. We go on one or two cruises a year and this recent emergency is not going to slow us down. But, in our discussions we started talking about repositioning cruises and what would be done if an event like on Carnival happened. I cannot seem to find anything in searching but perhaps I am searching for the wrong things.

 

Any ideas what sort of thing would happen if lets say exactly what happened to Carnival Triumph happened but about 50% of the way between the US and Europe?

 

I've wondered too......whether it would be more likely that they would offload the passengers onto a rescuing ship of some sort (so that crew alone could deal with the injured ship) or if they'd leave everyone on board for the time it would take to get a tow back to land (this is assuming total engine failure of the cruise ship). I suppose it depends on the ship and the number of passengers - it's different for a ship of 600 than for a ship of 3600.

[Hlitner]

It is not just the ships status that could be an issue in mid ocean - A critically ill passenger could be several days away from a hospital with no helicopter rescue possible.

 

This actually happens on even normal Repositioning cruises when they are far from any port. If in the middle of nowhere the ships' physicians just do the best they can do until they get to a port with medical facilities or an airport that can handle an air ambulance. We have been on some cruises where this has happened and the ships will sometimes divert to the nearest port (which can still take several days).

 

In an aside, we have done several long cruises on the small Prinsendam where (like most ships) they do have a morgue. On this particular ship it is supposed to hold 3 bodies and the onboard joke is that if the morgue gets full the overflow bodies are stored in the Florist shop which is located next door to the morgue.

 

Hank

[John Bull]

I've wondered too......whether it would be more likely that they would offload the passengers onto a rescuing ship of some sort (so that crew alone could deal with the injured ship) or if they'd leave everyone on board for the time it would take to get a tow back to land (this is assuming total engine failure of the cruise ship). I suppose it depends on the ship and the number of passengers - it's different for a ship of 600 than for a ship of 3600.

 

Transferring passengers to another ship would surely come way way way down at the bottom of the list of options unless the ship was in imminent danger.

Although this would be done by shuttling passengers in ships' tenders just like at tender ports rather than lowering folk in lifeboats, transfers have inherent dangers such as the heavy swells that are common mid-ocean, even in glorious weather.

There's also the availability of nearby ships capable of handling the numbers, and equipped to accept non-seafarers by tender, Can't imagine too many folk wanting to climb a rope ladder up the side of an oil tanker.;)

Much quicker, easier & safer to transfer supplies, generators, engineers etc to the troubled ship, as was done on Carnival Triumph.

 

I'm no expert, this is just MHO.

 

JB :)

[Karysa]

So, for obvious reasons, my partner and I were discussing cruise issues. We go on one or two cruises a year and this recent emergency is not going to slow us down. But, in our discussions we started talking about repositioning cruises and what would be done if an event like on Carnival happened. I cannot seem to find anything in searching but perhaps I am searching for the wrong things.

 

Any ideas what sort of thing would happen if lets say exactly what happened to Carnival Triumph happened but about 50% of the way between the US and Europe?

 

This would be considered an emergency that required immediate assistance in whatever form was available and deemed the safest IMO.

 

The TA crossings are usually in the spring and fall and weather and seas can get nasty. I think sleeping on the deck would be pretty much out for most passengers. I would think that there would be a lot of vomiting and seasick miserable people bobbing in the sea. I think the crew (many do get seasick when the seas get rough) would be affected as well and in general this would indeed be a cruise from hell for most people on board.

[Essiesmom]

NCL ran a ship for a number of years around Hawaii and then because it was foreign flagged it had to go to Kiributi that was far away from anything. It didn't always make it because of on board Medical emergency. When ships are traveling across the Atlantic, they like airplanes follow a great circle route because its closer and in fact are never more than 2 days away from shore at normal speeds. The survivors of the Titanic as well as the bodies recovered were taken to Halifax because it was the closest port(there is an interesting cemetery in Halifax including one named Dawson-with the bodies of the dead from Titanic laid out in the outline of a ships hull) No ship has gotten stuck between Europe and the US....although a few have sunk. the Titanic and the Stockholm are two. Its extremely rare for a cruise ship to die completely like the Triumph did. In fact the new standards for SOLAS require that the ships have two separate systems so they can be brought to port in case one completely fails but most ships are under the old rules and will not be retrofitted.

In an emergency a US Navy ship can be there within days as was sent when the Splendor lost power. In an real emergency they could send another ship and transfer the passengers ever with that being fairly dangerous and not worry about the fact that it would be technically overloaded(ask the Carpathia)

 

 

You have a slight error in your text: The MS Stockholm is alive and presumably healthy, sailing currently as Athena. The ship that sank was the Andrea Doria, after colliding with Stockholm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Athena

[fishywood]

In an emergency a US Navy ship can be there within days as was sent when the Splendor lost power. In an real emergency they could send another ship and transfer the passengers ever with that being fairly dangerous and not worry about the fact that it would be technically overloaded(ask the Carpathia)

 

Only if the "real emergency" was of a nature that there are no alternatives but to abandon ship would a rescuing ship be legally permitted to take on rescuees when they would be exceeding their own lifeboat capacity. Specified in the same 2010 SOLAS regulations you cite requiring redundancy in systems on new ships.

[dsrdsrdsr]

Sure, a lot longer but essentials will run out and medical conditions will get bad very quickly.

Essentials won't run out. Even mid-Atlantic, you're about two days away from a supply ship. And the nearest point to tow the ship to wouldn't be New York or Southampton - there's Iceland, Bermuda, the Azores, the Canaries, the Faroes, Ireland, Greenland, Rockall ... (maybe not Rockall. Doesn't quite have the facilities.)

 

As for transshipping passengers, that would only happen in a flat calm or a dire emergency. Too risky otherwise.

[Capt_BJ]

as a case example

 

Bermuda is 600+ miles to the closest land at the Cape Hat' vicinity

 

tow of a cruise ship is gonna happen at about 5 miles per hour - best case - once the tugs GET THERE and tugs ain't fast.

 

split the case to the middle, 300 miles at 5 mph is? You got a rest stop somewhere in between?

 

You mention supply ship. Where is this mythical preloaded and ready to go supply ship? How are the supplies xfered from ship to ship? USN does this all the time .... cruise ships?

 

I DID work this problem for 30+ years. I DID hook up tows at sea and bring disabled ships to safe haven.

 

I DO sail on cruise ships

 

heck I'd rather be on a cruise ship that lost all power half way between Miami and Cayman then on a 727 that did the same thing . . . .

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

heck I'd rather be on a cruise ship that lost all power half way between Miami and Cayman then on a 727 that did the same thing . . . .

 

 

Well, :D When you put it like that!!!! :)

 

[smeyer418]

You mention supply ship. Where is this mythical preloaded and ready to go supply ship? How are the supplies xfered from ship to ship? USN does this all the time .... cruise ships?

 

I DID work this problem for 30+ years. I DID hook up tows at sea and bring disabled ships to safe haven.

 

I DO sail on cruise ships

 

heck I'd rather be on a cruise ship that lost all power half way between Miami and Cayman then on a 727 that did the same thing . . . .

 

 

its happened at least once. There was a Canadian air plane that ran out of fuel and made a dead stick landing at a inactive airbase-they miscalculated their fuel supply-no one was hurt.

a plane landing at jfk ran out of fuel the pilot never clearly declared a fuel emergency(large loss of life)

[wieslaw]

as a case example

 

Bermuda is 600+ miles to the closest land at the Cape Hat' vicinity

 

tow of a cruise ship is gonna happen at about 5 miles per hour - best case - once the tugs GET THERE and tugs ain't fast.

 

split the case to the middle, 300 miles at 5 mph is? You got a rest stop somewhere in between?

 

You mention supply ship. Where is this mythical preloaded and ready to go supply ship? How are the supplies xfered from ship to ship? USN does this all the time .... cruise ships?

 

I DID work this problem for 30+ years. I DID hook up tows at sea and bring disabled ships to safe haven.

 

I DO sail on cruise ships

 

heck I'd rather be on a cruise ship that lost all power half way between Miami and Cayman then on a 727 that did the same thing . . . .

 

Hi Capt BJ,

 

how far a tug boat can go on the amount of fuel that they have on board ? If a tug boat /s did try to tow a large cruise ship from the "middle" would they have enough fuel ?

Do tug boats come in 'different sizes ' ? like a car can be towed by any tow truck ..... but a semi requires something a lot larger and stronger.

 

Would a large cruise ship need more tugs ? to control it better and tow it faster ?

 

How many people are on a tug ? is there enough to operate the tug for few days and nights ?

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[jcl410]

My last trans-Atlantic was aboard the Royal Clipper. She's a sailing ship. Even if her engine room is destroyed we could have continued under sail alone.

 

(That's assuming that the emergency generator can power the hydraulic pump used to unfurl that sails and brace the yards!)

 

We averaged 10 knots a day; 10 sea days from Tennerife to Barbados. Not for every one, but I enjoyed it!

 

Aloha,

 

John

[dsrdsrdsr]

You mention supply ship. Where is this mythical preloaded and ready to go supply ship? How are the supplies xfered from ship to ship? USN does this all the time .... cruise ships?

OK, let's take Bermuda as a case in point. Now, our cruise ship is 3 days from port. I think we can ignore all scenarios where the ship has less than 3 days food on board - in fact, let's assume the captain has a tiny bit of prudence and assume he has 4 days' supplies. (I suspect most ships have a week or two spare food, but that'd spoil the argument.)

 

So the people on Bermuda have 4 days to get a large lump of supplies to the cruise ship. Now, i don't think it's a stretch to say there might be some sort of cargo ship in a harbour somewhere in Bermuda. Their supplies arrive by sea, so they'll have a ship handy. And suppose it does 8 knots, or 10 mph near enough - it'll take a day and a half, or a bit less, to get there. And lets allow a day to transship the goods. How? Well, by lifeboat would be a fairly slow but effective way to do it. But I'd have thought that with a crew of several thousand, they might manage to cobble together some form of breeches buoy. Or alternatively, just lash the ships together and hand it over. They won't let the passengers starve with food in sight.

 

That leaves just a day and a half to load the ship in Bermuda. Now Bermuda has a population of 64,000, which is about 7 times the population of even the largest ship. So a week's rations for the ship are a day's rations for the islanders. I'm sure the food could be spared, and I'm sure they could get the food from the warehouses to the cargo ship in less than a day and a half.

 

There. Problem solved. The passengers don't have to starve to death. :)

[Capt_BJ]

you obviously have never lived in an are hit by a hurricane or tornado.

 

I have.. I've seen the genorosity of the folks 1 mile away. Do the terms GUNS and BASEBALL BATS bring any images to mind?

 

and have manned & commanded the ships that provide support to ships in distress

or in other words

 

call me when you next try to commandeer a merchant vessel for your rescue operation

 

I've DONE this operation ..... you have no idea ....

[dsrdsrdsr]

you obviously have never lived in an are hit by a hurricane or tornado.

 

I have.. I've seen the genorosity of the folks 1 mile away. Do the terms GUNS and BASEBALL BATS bring any images to mind?

 

and have manned & commanded the ships that provide support to ships in distress

or in other words

 

call me when you next try to commandeer a merchant vessel for your rescue operation

 

I've DONE this operation ..... you have no idea ....

Nope, we don't have hurricanes or tornadoes over here. Or guns or baseball bats, for that matter.

 

I wasn't actually thinking of commandeering a vessel. I was thinking of hiring one. You know, for cash. Show me a cargo vessel that isn't available at the right price?

 

And even if not a single merchant vessel within range is willing to help, not even for cash, I dare say at least one of the NATO countries (probably the USA) would be able to get a ship there just in time to stop all 9,000 souls on board from perishing. Do you really think it couldn't or wouldn't be done?

 

(Incidentally, when I think of distressed mariners in need of rescuing, I don't think of the apparently selfish residents in hurricane areas. I think of the RNLI, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. Every member of the crew (bar the cox'n) is a volunteer, who doesn't get paid; there's no government funding, it's all by public subscription. These men and women risk their lives to help those in danger and get nothing tangible in return. Just maybe, there may be some of these sort of people in the vicinity as well as the universally selfish and mean types you have met?)

[PennyAgain]

I've made many donations to the Royal National LifeBoats over the years as I dearly respect what they do and have done.

 

My not so distant ancestors lived on some of the northern islands of the UK and told plenty of stories about tragedies and rescues.

 

My family has also drunk a great deal of Lifeboat tea (which gives a donation for every box bought.) Available in the US from Amazon.

 

Also due to my work, I've made a few ship to boat transfers when I was MUCH younger and fitter. Horrible experiences with with excellent sailors to help. I transfered with the grace of a sack of potatoes but did so safely.

[OCruisers]

:eek: I don't even want to think of this happening on a TA repositoning!

 

LuLu

~~~~

[cruising cockroach]

I did a TATL repo on the Prinsendam last year and a breakdown (or some worse disaster) did cross my mind. Seas were rough with big swells and waves. Given that most pax were elderly (we were the 2nd or 3rd youngest couple onboard at 50), recovering a lifeboat full of passengers would have been challenging. Can't imagine any other way to transfer passengers.

 

How did the 2 Carnival ships that resupplied the Triumph do it?

 

As far as a/c running out of fuel, that has happened to 4 or 5 a/c in the pst 30 years if you want to include accidental/unintended fuel starvation or jettisoning.

 

AC143 Short-loading of fuel due to improper conversion

 

AV52 Just ran out of fuel

 

TS236 Accidentally dumped fuel

 

BA38 Fuel froze

[scottbee]

I did a TATL repo on the Prinsendam last year and a breakdown (or some worse disaster) did cross my mind. Seas were rough with big swells and waves. Given that most pax were elderly (we were the 2nd or 3rd youngest couple onboard at 50), recovering a lifeboat full of passengers would have been challenging. Can't imagine any other way to transfer passengers.

 

How did the 2 Carnival ships that resupplied the Triumph do it?

 

As far as a/c running out of fuel, that has happened to 4 or 5 a/c in the pst 30 years if you want to include accidental/unintended fuel starvation or jettisoning.

 

AC143 Short-loading of fuel due to improper conversion

AV52 Just ran out of fuel

TS236 Accidentally dumped fuel

BA38 Fuel froze

 

TS236 was actually mechanical fairlure after the wrong part was installed, not a fuel dump, but a fuel leak (followed by a crossfeed into the leaking tank per POH)

HF3378 fuel exhausted flying with the gear down

UA173 ran out of fuel while trying to diagnose another issue

 

while it does occur, note that in almost all of these cases (except AV052), most of the people survived. Commercial planes are pretty darn safe, and make excellent gliders.

 

but back to the original comment, I've twice been on trans-oceanic trips with medical emergencies.

1) into Hawaii from San Diego. Originally planned a helo rescue the next morning (1st light) as we would approach Hilo, but instead the captain picked up speed and we reached Hilo 4 hours early

2) 18 hours out of Funchal toward Florida, we turned around and steamed back 6 hours, and the Portugese performed a helicopter winch rescue off the pool deck (at night). very impressive.