Children's Program

[Keith1010]

So what about adults on the ship who like children? Is that OK?:D

 

Keith

[Jim Avery]

So what about adults on the ship who like children? Is that OK?:D

 

Keith

 

At least they are paying full fare.:D

[wripro]

You can reason with an adult (unless they are drunk.) And adults usually keep to one area and do not run around the ship screaming, jumping into the pool, running around the restaurants.

 

Keith, I understand the concept of unruly adults being an unavoidable problem at times too. But to me the most unruly adults of all are the ones who force their kids on others and then don't take responsibility for their behavior.

[Jim Avery]

You can reason with an adult (unless they are drunk.) And adults usually keep to one area and do not run around the ship screaming, jumping into the pool, running around the restaurants.

 

Keith, I understand the concept of unruly adults being an unavoidable problem at times too. But to me the most unruly adults of all are the ones who force their kids on others and then don't take responsibility for their behavior.

 

Agreed! And on two different voyages, I have seen unruly adult passengers put ashore from SeaDream. Can't really do that with a kid.:eek:

[Keith1010]

Henry, we have found most children to be well behaved on cruises.

 

We sailed on the Silver Shadow and they had a record number of children on that sailing and I never once saw a child out of hand.

 

Can it happen? Yes, but I have seen adults who are unruly and they did not appear drunk.

 

I realize that you don't want to cruise with kids and I respect that but I also respect those adults who want to take their kids with them.

 

Yes, should a child get out of hand the parents should quickly intervene. Most do but I realize some do not. But some adults also do other things that I find rude with or without children.

 

Keith

[zich6]

You can reason with an adult (unless they are drunk.) And adults usually keep to one area and do not run around the ship screaming, jumping into the pool, running around the restaurants.

 

I'm not sure about that Henry. I've seen many sober, unruly adults in public.

 

You also can't argue with the fact that, on balance, children are much less likely to bore us with war stories, complain about illnesses, or hit on our wives/significant others.:)

[commodoredave]

Henry, we have found most children to be well behaved on cruises.

 

We sailed on the Silver Shadow and they had a record number of children on that sailing and I never once saw a child out of hand.

 

Can it happen? Yes, but I have seen adults who are unruly and they did not appear drunk.

 

I realize that you don't want to cruise with kids and I respect that but I also respect those adults who want to take their kids with them.

 

Yes, should a child get out of hand the parents should quickly intervene. Most do but I realize some do not. But some adults also do other things that I find rude with or without children.

 

Keith

 

There are lots of cruise lines where children fit in very nicely and where there is plenty of room so that they do not tip the balance. This is not the case with a small luxury vessel like SB or SD. Sure, I've seen a handful of children on these lines who were well behaved and a pleasure to be with. But I've seen more who were not. As Jim said, unruly behaviour by adults is not tolerated. But it seems to be tolerated by children. Perhaps if cruise lines enforced their rules for proper behaviour with children we wouldn't even be having this debate.

[Keith1010]

There are lots of cruise lines where children fit in very nicely and where there is plenty of room so that they do not tip the balance. This is not the case with a small luxury vessel like SB or SD. Sure, I've seen a handful of children on these lines who were well behaved and a pleasure to be with. But I've seen more who were not. As Jim said, unruly behaviour by adults is not tolerated. But it seems to be tolerated by children. Perhaps if cruise lines enforced their rules for proper behaviour with children we wouldn't even be having this debate.

 

As I said from the very start. When our children were young we did not take them on luxury cruises. We also didn't take them to five star restaurants. We didn't do it because most luxury lines don't have children's programs and we thought it made sense to take them on other lines.

 

But we do what we think works and others do what they think works.

 

And it is he right of the parent to take their children on whatever cruise line they think works best.

 

With that said, I have found that the majority of children we have sailed with on all luxury lines have been very well behaved.

 

These threads won't change anything.

 

If you don't want to cruise with children then take long voyages and cruise during the school year but when you go on a cruise you will be sailing with all sorts of people; tall and small, old and young and adults and children. That's life.

 

Keith

[gillianrose]

Well we are subsidizing each other too. Adults require many things that I don't including a lot more food then I do.

 

If you can bring on two adults with one child at a lower cost that easily pays for itself.

 

The cruise lines don't do this to be charitable.

 

It's a business.

 

Keith

 

Children are not bringing the adults along. The adults will cruise anyway.

 

They bring their kids because it is free or nearly free and they get free babysitting onboard. Some parents would actually prefer to cruise without their kids, but their kids (speaking of the older ones) can read the "KIDS SAIL FREE" ads and might say, hey, I'm free, take me along, too.

 

The majority of adults do not bring children on the cruise with them on luxury cruises or premium cruises, or even mainstream cruises. Most adults cruise as couples. Most cruise lines don't allow teenagers to cruise for no charge. Some cruise lines, like Crystal, allow 17 year old footballers onboard for $0. That's not the same as say, subsidizing an adults champagne. The teenager eats his or her share of lobster and all the other goodies. They just can't drink alcohol legally...though their parents might share it with them in their stateroom or the kids might get into the liquor stash.

 

If a cruise line actually NEEDS to offer "KIDS SAIL FREE" in order to get adults onboard, I can't help but wonder how well that business is doing.

[gillianrose]

And it is he right of the parent to take their children on whatever cruise line they think works best.

 

Actually it is a privilege, not a right.

 

And there are ships which are adults only, not enough of them to go around, though.

[commodoredave]

As I said from the very start. When our children were young we did not take them on luxury cruises. We also didn't take them to five star restaurants. We didn't do it because most luxury lines don't have children's programs and we thought it made sense to take them on other lines.

 

But we do what we think works and others do what they think works.

And it is he right of the parent to take their children on whatever cruise line they think works best.

 

Keith

 

Yes, but it is also my right as a paying passenger to expect a peaceful and enjoyable cruise that is not spoiled by unruly children. And it is also my right to make it clear on this thread, on board the ship and in correspondence with cruise lines what I expect in order to be a loyal customer. Furthermore, if a cruise line markets itself as an adult destination, I have the right to ask them to live up to their advertising.

[Keith1010]

Children are not bringing the adults along. The adults will cruise anyway.

 

They bring their kids because it is free or nearly free and they get free babysitting onboard. Some parents would actually prefer to cruise without their kids, but their kids (speaking of the older ones) can read the "KIDS SAIL FREE" ads and might say, hey, I'm free, take me along, too.

 

The majority of adults do not bring children on the cruise with them on luxury cruises or premium cruises, or even mainstream cruises. Most adults cruise as couples. Most cruise lines don't allow teenagers to cruise for no charge. Some cruise lines, like Crystal, allow 17 year old footballers onboard for $0. That's not the same as say, subsidizing an adults champagne. The teenager eats his or her share of lobster and all the other goodies. They just can't drink alcohol legally...though their parents might share it with them in their stateroom or the kids might get into the liquor stash.

 

If a cruise line actually NEEDS to offer "KIDS SAIL FREE" in order to get adults onboard, I can't help but wonder how well that business is doing.

 

When we cruised with our two children we didn't cruises because it was free or nearly free. In fact, on most cruises back then and even on most cruises today (I know there are always exceptions) we paid either a full fare (if they had their own room, or a reduced fare if they shared a room with us). If they shared a room with us, so that there were two full paying guests and two paying somewhat less the overall costs to the line were no greater for four of us in a room than two people.

 

As I stated earlier this is a business.

 

Many places offer a slightly reduced price for children whether that is a movie theatre, or a restaurant or even to attend a sporting event. No, I would not worry about the profitability of the businesses for doing this.

 

Keith

[zich6]

Actually it is a privilege, not a right.

 

And there are ships which are adults only, not enough of them to go around, though.

 

No, it is a right unless it's specifically prohibited. So, to the point, on SB it is a right.

[zich6]

Yes, but it is also my right as a paying passenger to expect a peaceful and enjoyable cruise that is not spoiled by unruly children. And it is also my right to make it clear on this thread, on board the ship and in correspondence with cruise lines what I expect in order to be a loyal customer. Furthermore, if a cruise line markets itself as an adult destination, I have the right to ask them to live up to their advertising.

 

I agree that the marketing is deceptive. I just re-watched the 7+ minute on board video for any hint of children - nada. SB should either make children more prominent in their marketing, or prohibit them.

 

Rights are great things and when selecting our cruises we all have them. That's what drives the cruising economy - supply and demand. If there is a strong enough demand, for children included cruises, or children prohibited cruises, eventually that demand will be supplied.

 

I would hope that all who are interested in this issue make their views known to SB. Further, I would encourage you in your communications, as I have said before, to try to achieve a win-win situation through suggestions i.e. a mandatory half hour on-board meeting with parents to precisely instruct them on what is required of them and their children. Or, training for staff so that they more closely monitor the behavior of children.

 

After all, I think the general consensus here is that a small ratio of well-behaved children is not an issue. SB will best respond to suggestions that are best for business.

[commodoredave]

I agree that the marketing is deceptive. I just re-watched the 7+ minute on board video for any hint of children - nada. SB should either make children more prominent in their marketing, or prohibit them.

 

Rights are great things and when selecting our cruises we all have them. That's what drives the cruising economy - supply and demand. If there is a strong enough demand, for children included cruises, or children prohibited cruises, eventually that demand will be supplied.

 

I would hope that all who are interested in this issue make their views known to SB. Further, I would encourage you in your communications, as I have said before, to try to achieve a win-win situation through suggestions i.e. a mandatory half hour on-board meeting with parents to precisely instruct them on what is required of them and their children. Or, training for staff so that they more closely monitor the behavior of children.

 

After all, I think the general consensus here is that a small ratio of well-behaved children is not an issue. SB will best respond to suggestions that are best for business.

 

Well said. Small numbers of well behaved children are not the problem. But if SB doesn't care what the ratio is, then they need to change their marketing and train their staff to deal with it.

[wills47]

Although I agree that Seabourn's small ships are hardly the place for small children, I think that their sale indicates a decision that has already been made, and it simply reflects the economic reality of demographics.

 

The sale of Seabourn's small ships and the subsequent building of another 450 passenger ship indicates that SB is investing in a different demographic, that is, the wealthy baby boomers who like to take their children and grandchildren on vacation with them. There is data out there to prove this trend. The baby boomers with means like to travel, and their new preference is to create a package, pay the entire price and then invite their entire brood along without creating any financial demand on them. There is also evidence that supports time starved professionals who want an easy upscale vacation and happen to also have children.

 

Are their other lines out there that cater to this demographic? Yes and No. Seabourn's service and atmosphere are special, and if one is going to drop 30-40K on a family vacation, and one has experienced the difference, it becomes a no-brainer. At that point the customer is thinking about how great it will be for THEIR family, not the effect of THEIR family on other cruisers.

 

It is therefore the job of the cruise line to mitigate the effects of these sometimes large families on the product. It is clear that it really can't be handled on the smaller vessels, but with proper planning and strategic infrastructure, the product can be protected on vessels with the space to do it. Kids clubs, adults only restaurants, adult pools, even segregated floors.

 

Having experienced the impact of extended family cruising on steroids, that is, a Fourth of July cruise, I sincerely hope that SB puts policies in place to avoid crowding, i.e. no "free in the same cabin" nonsense. A ship of 450 becomes a ship of 600, without the infrastructure to handle it.

[Keith1010]

Why would Seaborn Change their marketing.

 

When cruise lines market do they ever show the ship being pushed around in rough seas yet that is a possibility.

 

They are going to market it the way they see fit.

 

That is part of capitalism and business.

 

Keith

[zich6]

Why would Seaborn Change their marketing.

 

When cruise lines market do they ever show the ship being pushed around in rough seas yet that is a possibility.

 

They are going to market it the way they see fit.

 

That is part of capitalism and business.

 

Keith

 

Keith, rough seas are possible. Children are probable. There's a difference.

 

In addition, SB does formally address rough seas in their adoption of the "Passenger Bill of Rights," section 3:

 

"The right to have available on board ships operating beyond rivers or coastal waters full-time, professional emergency medical attention, as needed until shore side medical care becomes available." No such mitigation of the children issue is mentioned anywhere.

 

Look, I like children more than most. I have a very strong paternal instinct that is a major part of who I am. That said, I'm interested in a win-win whereby the perceived impact of children behaving badly by those who have a God given right to feel differently than the way I do, can have the experience they expect based on what they're lead to believe by the SB marketing. I really think it's doable.

 

I'm working on something that may help. I'll post if/when it matures.

[Keith1010]

Keith, rough seas are possible. Children are probable. There's a difference.

 

In addition, SB does formally address rough seas in their adoption of the "Passenger Bill of Rights," section 3:

 

"The right to have available on board ships operating beyond rivers or coastal waters full-time, professional emergency medical attention, as needed until shore side medical care becomes available." No such mitigation of the children issue is mentioned anywhere.

 

Look, I like children more than most. I have a very strong paternal instinct that is a major part of who I am. That said, I'm interested in a win-win whereby the perceived impact of children behaving badly by those who have a God given right to feel differently than the way I do, can have the experience they expect based on what they're lead to believe by the SB marketing. I really think it's doable.

 

I'm working on something that may help. I'll post if/when it matures.

 

With all due respect there is a difference in the Passenger Bill Of Rights than in Marketing.

 

The goal of marketing is to promote sailing with Seabourn and to sell cruises.

 

The one thing I do agree with on this thread is that if a lot of children are going to sail on Seabourn then all would be better if Seabourn has some facilities from the children and an official children's program.

 

Keith

[Poppy1966]

Why would Seaborn Change their marketing.

 

Keith

 

Seabourns marketing strategy whether in print, online, social and digital media etc has always been portrayed as an adult focused vacation. I've never come across any marketing or promotional material highlighting anything to do with children ie prices, special offers, pictures of children onboard in their brochue or online etc. Crystal for example, have a dedicated page on their website under 'Junior activities for children'. They also have a section in their print brochure too with offers on their website ie 'Kids go free 2013' etc and its on their facebook page too. That's good because people planning a cruise can therefore make an informed choice knowing there will be the possibility of children onboard and that they will be catered for in the various clubs. Seabourn don't offer anything like this across any forms of their marketing material.

My first 4or5 Seabourn cruises I did honestly believe it was an adult only line based on their marketing and as we didn't have any kids onboard thought no different. Last cruise there were children onboard and it WASN'T the summer holidays but there were enough to make several days and nights not so enjoyable.

I would presume the reason why Seabourn don’t change their marketing to include anything to do with children, apart from the fact there isnt any facilities at present except for the card room, is that a proportion of their current client base – including myself – would rethink a booking. Someone mentioned on this thread there were 42 children onboard the Odyssey, almost 10% children on a line that doesn't market itself to families. Another poster mentioned Seabourn were looking to move into this market.

If Seabourn do plan to move in this direction, which they are clearly entitled to do, they should at least make this strategy clear to their customers. I have one more Seabourn cruise booked and truthfully if there are children running riot like my last one I will look elsewhere in future, where? I don't know. Sad because we have had great cruises on Seabourn and have been very loyal to them from we first stepped onboard many years ago. Mostly we now take 21-28 day cruises and I want what they portray in their brochures and marketing material which is a premium adult line. Maybe they should consider one ship adult only as someone else said.

[wripro]

You can walk away from unruly adults. Unruly children follow you everywhere making it impossible to escape them.

 

Keith, maybe you have just had better luck with kids on cruises than I. I have nothing against well behaved children. I just happen to have cruised with too many of the other kind too often and it has colored my feelings toward the whole concept of mixing a luxury cruise with kids. Just as I would not sail on Disney and expect lectures on "How To Get the Most out of Social Security" I do not like to sail on Seabourn and have a children's program.

[Keith1010]

Poppy1966, Silversea, SeaDream and Regent do not highlight children in their marketing department either yet many children sail them. So, it's not like Seabourn is marketing itself differently.

 

Crystal refers to children on the web site (not sure in printed material) but they do have a children's facility.

 

Again it's there cruise line and they have the right to market it the way they want as all companies do.

 

And, yes, from a marketing point of view they are not at the place where they want to promote kids. Smoking is permitted on Seabourn too but they don't market that one. Thank goodness!

 

Keith

[Keith1010]

Henry you know I always respect your views. And I can appreciate why you don't want to sail with kids.

 

Believe it or not I would prefer sailings with very few children but I realize that is not going to happen certain times of the year.

 

Overall, I really have had good luck on cruises with children. I was on a holiday cruise at the end of 2011 with about 50 kids on board the Crystal Serenity and they were very well behaved. I was impressed that some people brought nanny's to look after the kids and for the many who don't the kids were still very well behaved.

 

We had the record number of kids on the Silver Shadow in 2009 and have been on other cruises with children. I really have found them to be very well behaved. Actually, on that sailing there was an extended family, (Parents/Grand Parents and the kids) and the kids were great but I thought the parents were way over the top. So, give me a choice and I would have been happier with the kids and not their parents.

 

On one of our cruises kids ran up and down the hallway and I walked outside and upon their return I kindly asked if they could please walk which they did. I know some kids can be unruly. But I really find some adults who are just as bothersome, at least from my perspective.

 

Anyway, I really don't have an answer on this for those who don't care for the kids other than what most seasoned cruisers know and that is to select your itinerary and time of travels accordingly which I know you already know. I too adjust my travel plans. For example, I don't care for crowded ports so mainly we avoid cruising in the summer. The only exception I would make to that is if we want to sail someplace where sailing another time of the year is not possible.

 

Keith

[wripro]

There really is no answer. I just stay away from summer and holiday cruises. Then I cross my fingers and pray to the Cruise Gods that whenever I board a ship there won't be too many kids.

[lincslady]

There really is no answer. I just stay away from summer and holiday cruises. Then I cross my fingers and pray to the Cruise Gods that whenever I board a ship there won't be too many kids.

 

So do we - as we don't like very hot weather anyway (being Brits!) we now avoid July and August, and probably late June and early September. Also, the med. ports are terribly tourist full during these months. But it would still be nice to feel that we don't need to avoid these months because of a lot of children on board. C'est la vie nowadays, however, and unlikely to change.