Tower of London Poppies.

[Bob++]

A while ago I posted some pictures of this amazing sight at The Tower of London, commemorating the 888,246 British fatalities in the First World War.

 

The installation is nearing completion and is due to close on November 11 - although many people are pressing for an extension. I saw this video today which gives some idea of what it is like for those of us who will not be able to see it live.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP5yK_FHASg

[LondonTowner]

I went to see the poppies two weeks ago. An amazing sight. I have also bought one of the poppies.

[puppycanducruise]

Thanks for the link.

It brings a lump to my throat.

[jfgdbg]

Thank you for the link. I saw a portion on the CBS Evening News last and it is beautiful.

[Pet Nit Noy]

The installation is nearing completion and is due to close on November 11 - although many people are pressing for an extension.

 

Today's Washington Post newspaper says that some parts of the display will remain until the end of this month, but that the dismantling of the display will begin on November 12.

 

I'm completely at a loss to understand this decision. The war began 28 July 1914 and lasted until 11 November 1918. I don't understand why the installation isn't going to remain in place until 2018. (Let's not even try to figure out why it wasn't completed for the 100th anniversary of the start of the war.) Since the poppies are ceramic, they ought to be able to withstand the weather for four years.

 

Totally bewildering and disappointing for those of us whose travel don't take us to London until 2015 (and beyond).

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/11/07/tower-of-londons-stunning-poppy-installation-creates-national-sensation/?hpid=z1

[sddsddean]

The basic problem is that all the poppies have been bought by someone at £25 a time...all proceeds to various military charities. They therefore have a contract with the 'seller' to have the poppies in their possesion by the end of November. This has been discussed on many radio and TV shows with about a 50:50 split on whether they should stay or not. I think the main problem is no one foresaw what the 'display' would look like or how popular and moving it would prove, so the organisers did not foresee there being an outcry for the poppies to stay. Tough decision either way, but I believe some of the poppies are staying and I would not be at all surprised to see a similar installation during the summer/autumn of 2018.

 

Simon

[fabnfortysomething]

I remember hearing last week that a section of poppies is going to be displayed around the country as a "tour" and then permanently displayed at the Imperial war museum [think I've remembered that correctly but cant find written confirmation-was I dreaming or was that just one of the suggestions?]

Edited November 9, 2014 by fabnfortysomething

[Globaliser]

The basic problem is that all the poppies have been bought by someone at £25 a time...all proceeds to various military charities. They therefore have a contract with the 'seller' to have the poppies in their possesion by the end of November. This has been discussed on many radio and TV shows with about a 50:50 split on whether they should stay or not.

There have been two separate debates about "staying", which have I think sometimes become confused.

 

The first is whether the poppies should stay either permanently or for an extended period. This is not really feasible because most of the poppies have been sold, so the installation has to be removed for this purpose.

 

The other is whether the display should be extended for a short time so as to relieve the pressure and to give more people a chance to see the installation over a further few weeks. Given the huge amount of popular support for this, including from politicians, and given that buyers have not been promised a definite delivery date, I find it hard to believe that buyers would not countenance an extension of a few weeks.

 

So why has a hard line been taken? My own personal speculation is that the careful removal of almost a million units from the moat is a mammoth logistical process which has been carefully planned. I don't know whether the removal will be done by volunteers (as the planting was), but if you've stood up a small army of paid or unpaid people for a specific period to remove, pack, clean, re-pack and then despatch the poppies, it's very difficult and costly suddenly to delay that for a number of weeks. That is what I suspect lies behind the refusal to extend the installation.

 

Some of the official statements about this are all full of artistic bluster about the temporary nature of the installation reflecting the transience of life, but I think that these rather more practical considerations are behind the decisions that have been made.

 

However, I doubt that they're all going to disappear overnight. Anyone who has a chance next week should I think still be able to see most of the display.

I remember hearing last week that a section of poppies is going to be displayed around the country as a "tour" and then permanently displayed at the Imperial war museum [think I've remembered that correctly but cant find written confirmation-was I dreaming or was that just one of the suggestions?]

No, that was announced yesterday. (Again, I suspect that this has been the plan all along.)

 

Sections including the Weeping Window and the Wave will remain in place until the end of November. There will then be a tour around the country, and they will thereafter go on permanent display at the Imperial War Museum in 2018.

[Pet Nit Noy]

The basic problem is that all the poppies have been bought by someone at £25 a time...all proceeds to various military charities. They therefore have a contract with the 'seller' to have the poppies in their possesion by the end of November.

 

Thanks. I'd heard the poppies were being sold, but until your post, I hadn't heard the price or the beneficiaries or the sale. Wow. That does complicate the problem.

 

 

I think the main problem is no one foresaw what the 'display' would look like or how popular and moving it would prove, so the organisers did not foresee there being an outcry for the poppies to stay. Tough decision either way, but I believe some of the poppies are staying and I would not be at all surprised to see a similar installation during the summer/autumn of 2018.

 

I'm going to be following this story with interest. On the one hand, there's a ceramicist who must be proud to have created something that has become so important to huge numbers of people in England and around the world. On the other hand, that same artist might be understandably reluctant to see his art become a commodity. ("Please make a new batch of poppies for the 2018 anniversary.")

 

If the people who commissioned this memorial decide to create a wholly new one, my heart goes out to the artist who takes on that challenge. Those poppies will be a hard act to follow.

[Morgans]

This is taken from the BBC news website this morning which reinforces what has been said:

 

 

"Thousands of the Tower of London ceramic poppies are to tour the UK to enable more people to see parts of the popular artwork.

 

The installation of the 888,246 poppies will start to be dismantled by a team of about 8,000 volunteers on Wednesday.

 

The weeping window and wave segments will be removed last and will be on show until the end of the month.

 

The tour will last until 2018 before being permanently based at the Imperial War Museums in London and Manchester.

 

No schedule has been set yet for the tour."

 

The display has indeed been spectacular - if anyone hasn't yet seen it and are in London shortly then try to get to the Tower ASAP . It is worth it.

[Cotswold Eagle]

The artist has made it very clear that the transitory nature of this display is an important part of the concept.

 

I would hate to see it as a semi-permanent installation at the Tower, becoming part of the tourist 'must do' trail in London. That's not what it's about, although I am glad the sculptural elements (which by their nature have more sense of permanence) will be preserved.

[Pet Nit Noy]

The artist has made it very clear that the transitory nature of this display is an important part of the concept.

 

Yes, but if the decision had been made to remove the poppies after 11 November 2018, the installation would still be temporary so the artist's intent still would have been honored.

 

The precise dates of this installation are what's baffling me the most. Philosophically, I would have been more accepting of the quick removal of the piece of it had been installed in time for the July 1914 anniversary of the outbreak of the war because I would anticipate another -- different -- creation being installed in 2018 to recognize the end of hostilities.

 

I would hate to see it becoming part of the tourist 'must do' trail in London. That's not what it's about, although I am glad the sculptural elements (which by their nature have more sense of permanence) will be preserved.

 

While I understand your point of view, isn't there any UK memorial that has become a tourist 'must-do'? In Washington DC, the Vietnam Memorial definitely has taken on that role?

 

Admittedly, one major difference is that visitors to The Wall are allowed to interact with it in a personal way. People are allowed to prostrate themselves against the wall or make rubbings of sections of the wall. Friends and family members routinely leave mementos at the base of the wall. (The Park Service had to hire an archivist to catalog and store the deluge of memorabilia that has accumulated over the years.) These very intimate experiences are taking place amidst a crowd that often includes tourists who are simply there because The Wall is a must do.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Pet Nit Noy

[Keith1010]

Thanks for sharing this.

 

Keith

[Cotswold Eagle]

I think an issue here is that people are now thinking of this as if it were 'complete'. It is not. It is an installion art project and the removal, always designed to start on 12 November, is as much part of it as the months of building it and the few days in its current state.

 

There are an estimated 100,000 war memorials in the UK. This piece of art is not one of them and should not be regarded as such.

[SteveH2508]

Probably the most moving part was the reading of the roll call each night followed by the playing of the Last Post.

 

People could submit the name of a family casualty and, when verified, you were told the date upon which their name would be read out. The ceremony was also recorded and the video posted on the internet.

 

3 generations of my family attended in October when my great uncle was commemorated - a very poignant experience for all.

[SteveH2508]

Also, I read somewhere that they are worried that the poppies would not survive a cold snap - they were not designed to be permanently displayed outdoors.

[Globaliser]

Wow. That does complicate the problem.

 

... On the other hand, that same artist might be understandably reluctant to see his art become a commodity.

AIUI, the artist's concept always included the very short term nature of the installation and the fact that the poppies were going to be sold. The brief display of the poppies and their removal, sale and despatch is not part of a "problem", just part of the installation. Neither will it come as a surprise to the artist to find people buying them. Or, I suppose, selling them - although AIUI eBay has done its bit by banning the sale of poppies on its sites.

The precise dates of this installation are what's baffling me the most. Philosophically, I would have been more accepting of the quick removal of the piece of it had been installed in time for the July 1914 anniversary of the outbreak of the war because I would anticipate another -- different -- creation being installed in 2018 to recognize the end of hostilities.

The official start date of the project was 5 August 2014, which was the centenary of the UK's entry into the war. Some planting had already taken place by then so that there was something to unveil at the official project start, but it had only started on 17 July. The progressive increase in the number of poppies in the moat over the succeeding weeks graphically evoked the horror of the increasing death toll as the war went on. (You've probably already seen that the number of poppies is the number of British dead in that war.) That effect would never have worked if all the poppies had already been in place in July 2014. The increasing number of poppies over time, starting with when the war started, was part of the point of the piece.

[Pet Nit Noy]

AIUI, the artist's concept always included the very short term nature of the installation and the fact that the poppies were going to be sold... Neither will it come as a surprise to the artist to find people buying them.

 

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. I've always known that the poppies were going to be sold. What I did not know is the charities that would benefit. The problem I referred to is the charity's expectation that they would be receiving a donation in a certain time frame. Deferring that donation for years would wreck havoc with the charities' financial assumptions.

 

You've also misinterpreted my comment about the art being treated like a commodity. It has nothing to do with the sale of the existing poppies. It was a response to people who might be hoping to re-create the same installation in 2018. The existing installation was one artist's unique response to the magnitude and duration of the war. Ordering up a duplicate installation treats the piece like a production product.

 

The official start date of the project was 5 August 2014, which was the centenary of the UK's entry into the war... The progressive increase in the number of poppies in the moat over the succeeding weeks graphically evoked the horror of the increasing death toll as the war went on. (You've probably already seen that the number of poppies is the number of British dead in that war.) That effect would never have worked if all the poppies had already been in place in July 2014. The increasing number of poppies over time, starting with when the war started, was part of the point of the piece.

 

Your information about the 5 August start is the first I've seen either in US papers or, even, here on CC. Now, finally, the timeline of this project makes sense.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Pet Nit Noy

[Globaliser]

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. I've always known that the poppies were going to be sold. What I did not know is the charities that would benefit. The problem I referred to is the charity's expectation that they would be receiving a donation in a certain time frame. Deferring that donation for years would wreck havoc with the charities' financial assumptions.

 

You've also misinterpreted my comment about the art being treated like a commodity. It has nothing to do with the sale of the existing poppies. It was a response to people who might be hoping to re-create the same installation in 2018. The existing installation was one artist's unique response to the magnitude and duration of the war. Ordering up a duplicate installation treats the piece like a production product.

Thanks - I understand both your points now and agree with both of them.

 

In relation to deferring the income, putting it off for years wouldn't have gone down with them, but it also wouldn't have gone down well with the public who were expecting to be able to buy poppies. I think that both might have been perfectly happy with a delay of weeks, but if 8,000 volunteers have been lined up to unplant the poppies over the next three weeks, they have probably all made arrangements that can't readily be unmade. I know that at least some of the planting volunteers have been taking time off work to do it, in some cases from some pretty demanding and high-powered jobs.

 

On the second one, I doubt that there will be a duplicate. But I hope that whatever is done in four years' time will be equally creative and thought-provoking, which is always a sign of a good piece of art.

[Ray66]

All the poppies have been sold. I bought mine and paid for it back in August.

 

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/ww1-centenary/poppies-in-the-moat

 

I got an email last week saying they were going to start despatching them in late November.

[Globaliser]

For anyone who might be able to go tomorrow morning, the timings are as follows:-

The Tower Remembers on 11 November

 

Join us on 11 November as we mark the planting of the last poppy in our major installation 'Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red' and commemorate the centenary of the First World War.

 

Armistice Day

11 November

 

Come and take part in the final ceremony of our major art installation 'Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red' commemorating the centenary of the First World War.

 

Join us for the closing Roll of Honour and answer the signal of the guns that will fire 21 times.

 

Witness the planting of the final poppy in the moat followed by the playing of the last post by a lone bugler.

 

Please gather on Tower Hill by:

10.30 First gun signal and closing Roll of Honour

10.50 Final poppy planted

11.00 Two minute silence

[orchestrapal]

For anyone who might be able to go tomorrow morning, the timings are as follows:-

 

Sounds amazing. So sorry we're home from 6 weeks in London and will have to miss this.

[Bob++]

I can't help thinking about the old soldiers from both world wars that I used to see sitting on their own in the pub, nursing a half pint. Those that wanted to tell their stories had a hard time finding anyone who wanted to listen - of course most of them said very little about their experiences.

 

Kipling had many faults but he got it right with this:

 

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;

But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_tommy.htm

 

Tommy Atkins was used as an example name in documents for soldiers - it eventually became the generic name for any soldier.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Bob++

[Globaliser]

An article in The Guardian seems to support my speculation as one reason for the main display not being extendable.

 

Another which I didn't know was involved about was that part of the moat has already been booked for the weeks leading up to Christmas. There has been an ice rink in the moat during the winter for many years, but I couldn't find any reference to it this year and had therefore thought that it had been cancelled. But apparently there are bookings for some of the moat space anyway (which is also routine).

Poppy memorial designer’s delight at extension for Tower of London display

 

...

 

Historic Royal Palaces, the independent charity that runs the site, faces huge logistical and cost implications if the poppies are not uprooted from Wednesday onwards. They have pledged to try to send out the poppies to those who have bought them for £25 in time for Christmas so that the sum raised, believed to be in excess of £10 million, can quickly be shared between six nominated service charities. HRP also need to honour an arrangement with an army of 8,000 volunteers who will arrive to pick and clean the poppies. The gap before the weather deteriorates is short, a spokeswoman said this weekend.

 

A third key factor is the tower’s commitment to host a series of corporate events in a private entertainment venue to be constructed in the north moat before 27 November. These events are a substantial part of the tower’s annual income and, without a grand gesture from the companies involved, there is no way to avoid taking down the bulk of the installation next week.

 

...

[sparky-elpaso]

We saw the poppies when we were in London in August - amazing sight. I was glad to hear that most of the poppies have been sold - I ordered one after we got home. I plan to enlarge and frame one of the photos I took and I will fasten the poppy to the frame.