Ethics vs Self-interest

[jimbo5544]

It doesn't matter what we thing as long as they think it's fair. (And FWIW I wouldn't do their job for the salary I make.)

 

 

"Like"

 

 

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[autofan]

Many need to read poz222's comments. I have read about the same in the past plus that this job makes it possible for the worker to actually save sufficient funds to purchase a house "back home." To me, the initial tip is just part of the cruise cost then you add more when earned.

[SOMEBEECH]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

 

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

 

Actually large business do pay according to the cost of living and what other companies pay. So yes if they are doing business in a low cost of living they will pay less then if they were in a higher cost area.

 

 

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[SOMEBEECH]

I know of a man from Haiti that is on a Carnival ship and has been for four years. He loves it. He makes enough to send back to his parents and family plus have some left over for himself. He loves going to all the ports and seeing places that he only read or was told about. And he gets to meet ladies. He is hoping to eventually be able to get his parents and sibilants out of Haiti and to a better country even if it isn't America.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Another crew wage thread, sigh.

 

Let's try to cover things in order as posted.

 

1. Paying US wages. If I were to go work in Angola, should I expect to be paid Angolan wages?

 

2. To see how much of a change paying US wages to the crew would entail in cruise prices, you only need to look at NCL's Pride of America, which has a crew that gets US wages. The cruise price for a 7 day cruise on POA is as much or more than an international ship charges for a 14 day cruise from the West Coast, and the POA burns about 25% of the fuel burned by the WC ship (fuel being the largest single budgetary item).

 

3. Has crew wages degraded over the last few years? Yes. So have everyone's wages, most pertinent, all maritime wages. I have seen Chief Engineer wages be flat, in dollars, over the last 40 years, while those 1975 dollars would buy $4.50 today. Having said that, cruise ship crew wages provide a very nice middle class income in the crews' home countries. With the implementation of the Maritime Labor Convention, which guarantees a minimum wage for all crew, there has been some restructuring of the compensation paid to crew, but they all have to get the minimum. What has made cruise ship life less attractive over the past few years is not that the wage has suffered that much, but that the disadvantages of being away from home for long periods, etc, has made other jobs more attractive.

 

5. Why should we impose our mores, culture, or economy on another country? Crew receive a wage that is more than competitive in their countries.

 

6. Does crew pay vary by country? Yes and no. While technical positions like deck and engineering officers from the US or Western Europe will command higher salaries than those from Eastern Europe, that is mostly a collective bargaining or crewing agency issue. For the most part, any two cabin stewards receive the same pay on the same ship. However, the pay may be more attractive to crew from one country than another, so you see more of those crew in this position, while crew from other countries look at other positions that pay differently.

 

7. Which country? Flag or ship's home port? It is the flag state, pure and simple as to what labor laws apply. Now, does that country have a law that says everyone gets paid the same? Don't know. Does that country have laws about seaman's wages, probably, in nearly every country a collective bargaining agreement trumps most laws. I have seen a collective bargaining agreement in the US where the overtime rate was a few cents less than regular rate. If the members or the bargaining unit agrees, then it is legal.

 

8. The "perks". Everyone keeps on about the "free room and board". Unlike in the US, even when a single crewmember lives with his/her parents, they pay towards supporting the family, whether they are in country or on the ship. Many crew are married, and have families. Do you think that the rent or mortgage payment stops because they are on the ship receiving "free board"? Does the crew pack up all their belongings and put them in storage while on the ship? Do they sell their car? What do they live on when they are NOT on the ship? Remember, their salary has to stretch over that time period as well.

 

9. Poz is entirely correct in his analysis. In the "DSC pool" (I refuse to call it tips or gratuities), the compensation is a combination of wage and DSC. The wage is very, very low, usually less than a dollar an hour.

 

As much of a champion of cruise crew rights as I am, and as much of an opponent of the cruise lines' use of the DSC as "carrot and stick" compensation, please don't "feel sorry" for the crew. They do a hard job for a decent wage. Many are happy with that, many are not. It takes a certain kind of person to put up with shipboard life. It also takes a certain kind of person to put up with their spouse's shipboard life. Those who don't like it or can't adjust, leave the industry.

[Tapi]

When we sailed on Royal a few years back, we struck a conversation with our cabin steward whose wife was also a cabin steward on the ship. They had children back home staying with the grandparents back in Indonesia. They could make in a few months much more than they could dream of at any job back in their country in a year. They considered themselves blessed to have this opportunity and for the future that they'd be able to give their children, including a college education.

 

Many of us take jobs far from home because of the tremendous opportunities that they provide. For many of these workers, cruise ship jobs are no exception.

 

 

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Edited November 24, 2016 by Tapi

[GOLDENBONNY]

I just read a review where the cruiser say he/she had a wonderful cruise but will never cruise again. His/her reason was because after talking to many of the workers he/she was disappointed a the way carnival treated them. Many of these workers are from poor countries. The cruise line pays the workers according to what they would get paid in their country. For example, a worker from Philippines (as most cruise lines workers are) would get $2 - $4 per hour and would work long hours.

 

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

Thoughts....

 

they don't paid according to what they get in their country.

[kybluecruiser]

Nobody has problems buying merchandise made with cheaper labor. Everything from our tvs to our clothes. So why have an issue with cruise lines payment of their employees. Sounds hypocritical to me,

 

 

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[AHS123]

Nobody has problems buying merchandise made with cheaper labor.

 

That's an overly broad statement that certainly does not reflect my view.

[cb at sea]

I have the solution.....if you feel someone isn't making enough money...HIRE them, and pay them what you think they should be paid!

[sfaaa]

That's an overly broad statement that certainly does not reflect my view.

 

Then explain to us why you have no problem to participate in exploiting these poorly paid workers and cruise.

[AHS123]

Then explain to us why you have no problem to participate in exploiting these poorly paid workers and cruise.

 

1.) I did not address my comment to you.

 

2.) You did not comprehend my statement.

[Computer Nerd]

I have thought about it, but I am hoping that they make enough money to make it worth it for their families. I feel sadder that they are away from their families and children for so long, and that some of the passengers treat them horribly. I do my best to help in that regard. I treat them graciously (as I do with anyone in the service industry), and I tip well.

 

I also don't think it's as black and white as "if they didn't want to do it they'd find other jobs." That is a viewpoint held by those with privilege. There aren't always other options. Not everyone you meet working in a restaurant, hotel, or in any other minimum wage job in the US *wants* to be there. They do it to support themselves and their families, and they can't or there's aren't other jobs available. It can't be any different for the people working on a cruise ship, especially in countries where there just aren't a lot of jobs.

 

Thanks for your point of view but I completely disagree with it. There are ALWAYS other options if one is willing to do the work for them. Sure, I'm sure everyone would like to have a $100k job that requires very little effort but most people don't have the training or intelligence to do those jobs. Therefore you have the regular joe, grinding away to make ends meet. Nothing wrong with that and one doesn't have to be "privileged" to understand or acknowledge that is how 90% of the people live.

[Elaine5715]

Another crew wage thread, sigh.

 

Let's try to cover things in order as posted.

 

1. Paying US wages. If I were to go work in Angola, should I expect to be paid Angolan wages?

 

2. To see how much of a change paying US wages to the crew would entail in cruise prices, you only need to look at NCL's Pride of America, which has a crew that gets US wages. The cruise price for a 7 day cruise on POA is as much or more than an international ship charges for a 14 day cruise from the West Coast, and the POA burns about 25% of the fuel burned by the WC ship (fuel being the largest single budgetary item).

 

3. Has crew wages degraded over the last few years? Yes. So have everyone's wages, most pertinent, all maritime wages. I have seen Chief Engineer wages be flat, in dollars, over the last 40 years, while those 1975 dollars would buy $4.50 today. Having said that, cruise ship crew wages provide a very nice middle class income in the crews' home countries. With the implementation of the Maritime Labor Convention, which guarantees a minimum wage for all crew, there has been some restructuring of the compensation paid to crew, but they all have to get the minimum. What has made cruise ship life less attractive over the past few years is not that the wage has suffered that much, but that the disadvantages of being away from home for long periods, etc, has made other jobs more attractive.

 

5. Why should we impose our mores, culture, or economy on another country? Crew receive a wage that is more than competitive in their countries.

 

6. Does crew pay vary by country? Yes and no. While technical positions like deck and engineering officers from the US or Western Europe will command higher salaries than those from Eastern Europe, that is mostly a collective bargaining or crewing agency issue. For the most part, any two cabin stewards receive the same pay on the same ship. However, the pay may be more attractive to crew from one country than another, so you see more of those crew in this position, while crew from other countries look at other positions that pay differently.

 

7. Which country? Flag or ship's home port? It is the flag state, pure and simple as to what labor laws apply. Now, does that country have a law that says everyone gets paid the same? Don't know. Does that country have laws about seaman's wages, probably, in nearly every country a collective bargaining agreement trumps most laws. I have seen a collective bargaining agreement in the US where the overtime rate was a few cents less than regular rate. If the members or the bargaining unit agrees, then it is legal.

 

8. The "perks". Everyone keeps on about the "free room and board". Unlike in the US, even when a single crewmember lives with his/her parents, they pay towards supporting the family, whether they are in country or on the ship. Many crew are married, and have families. Do you think that the rent or mortgage payment stops because they are on the ship receiving "free board"? Does the crew pack up all their belongings and put them in storage while on the ship? Do they sell their car? What do they live on when they are NOT on the ship? Remember, their salary has to stretch over that time period as well.

 

9. Poz is entirely correct in his analysis. In the "DSC pool" (I refuse to call it tips or gratuities), the compensation is a combination of wage and DSC. The wage is very, very low, usually less than a dollar an hour.

 

As much of a champion of cruise crew rights as I am, and as much of an opponent of the cruise lines' use of the DSC as "carrot and stick" compensation, please don't "feel sorry" for the crew. They do a hard job for a decent wage. Many are happy with that, many are not. It takes a certain kind of person to put up with shipboard life. It also takes a certain kind of person to put up with their spouse's shipboard life. Those who don't like it or can't adjust, leave the industry.

 

( standing ovation as usual)

 

If a company transfers you to Angola, the employee who get US wages plus hardship wages plus expenses to keep the employee happy.

[Computer Nerd]

6. Does crew pay vary by country? Yes and no. While technical positions like deck and engineering officers from the US or Western Europe will command higher salaries than those from Eastern Europe, that is mostly a collective bargaining or crewing agency issue. For the most part, any two cabin stewards receive the same pay on the same ship. However, the pay may be more attractive to crew from one country than another, so you see more of those crew in this position, while crew from other countries look at other positions that pay differently.

 

 

I have one question. Do the crew members receive an increase in wages due to longevity? Or is the pay basically the same whether a crew member has been there 1 year or 10?

[chengkp75]

I have one question. Do the crew members receive an increase in wages due to longevity? Or is the pay basically the same whether a crew member has been there 1 year or 10?

 

Again, these policies vary by line, but yes, there are seniority bonuses, as well as performance bonuses, which is why the "mention in dispatches" on the comment cards are important.

[Jamericannn]

Actually large business do pay according to the cost of living and what other companies pay. So yes if they are doing business in a low cost of living they will pay less then if they were in a higher cost area.

 

 

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The question was... Say you own one single business, would you pay the workers based on their addresses or would you pay based on position and experience?

[Jamericannn]

I hope the reviewer whose information I used to make this post can see some of these informative comments

[Raxter54]

I hope the reviewer whose information I used to make this post can see some of these informative comments

Oh noes! A threat that the OP might see that not everyone agrees with their opinion, and we're not bleeding hearts that are not overly concerned about what the cruise lines pay their voluntary workers? Oh, please don't report us...[emoji33]

 

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[GUT2407]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

They're not all working in America either, so what country's pay rate should the lines use?

[sparks1093]

Oh noes! A threat that the OP might see that not everyone agrees with their opinion, and we're not bleeding hearts that are not overly concerned about what the cruise lines pay their voluntary workers? Oh, please don't report us...[emoji33]

 

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I don't think that is what the OP meant. I believe that he was saying that the reviewer who he quoted should read this thread in order to receive an education about the way things work instead of just swearing off of cruising for reasons that largely don't exist.

[DirtyDawg]

I don't think that is what the OP meant. I believe that he was saying that the reviewer who he quoted should read this thread in order to receive an education about the way things work instead of just swearing off of cruising for reasons that largely don't exist.

 

Why would we, as cruisers, want to change anyone's mind if they choose to swear off cruising for ill-informed reasons, or any other reasons for that matter?:confused:

 

Anything that reduces demand at a time of increasing supply is a VERY GOOD thing for my self interest.:D

[ChrisOz]

The money the cruise staff earn is above what they would earn back in their home country.

 

Yes, people from poorer countries are attracted to working on cruise lines, oil rigs, and so on.

 

Coming from affluent countries we are attracted to cruise lines for a variety of reasons. The main reason is that we have sufficient disposable income to throw away on a cruise!!!

 

Thus the affluent few (us) meet the impoverished many (the staff).

 

Our money pays for them to live a better life than they would otherwise be able to live working back in their home country.

 

If we want those same people to enjoy the same wages and conditions as we do back home then we should petition our governments to open the immigration flood gate / door.

 

Until then, the cruise ship is a welcome means for us to subsidise the poor. If we are uncomfortable with that then simply stop cruising.

 

If we all stop cruising then those people will be worse off.

[sparks1093]

Why would we, as cruisers, want to change anyone's mind if they choose to swear off cruising for ill-informed reasons, or any other reasons for that matter?:confused:

 

Anything that reduces demand at a time of increasing supply is a VERY GOOD thing for my self interest.:D

 

I agree, was just clarifying what the OP meant.

Edited November 26, 2016 by sparks1093

[Raxter54]

I don't think that is what the OP meant. I believe that he was saying that the reviewer who he quoted should read this thread in order to receive an education about the way things work instead of just swearing off of cruising for reasons that largely don't exist.

After going back to their original post, I think you are correct. My apologies to the OP for my sarcastic reply...

 

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