Gratuity

[notalandlover]

On 11/15/2018 at 1:31 PM, donaldsc said:

 

What I meant by nobody liking the current system is that the crew should be paid a decent wage by the cruise lines instead of having them depend upon tips.  No daily gratuities.  No envelopes.  No worries about how much of a tip to leave.  We could if we wish add a tip for extra services rendered but we would not have to.

 

I know that this would raise the price of the cruise but it would also force the people who do not pay gratuities because they claim that they do not believe in tipping to pay their fair share of the cruise cost.  Basically, the non-tippers are freeloaders.

 

DON

Well said Don.  Everyone pays the same.

[Cruzaholic41]

On 11/15/2018 at 4:31 PM, donaldsc said:

 Basically, the non-tippers are freeloaders.

 

Truer words have never been spoken. 

[ldubs]

I come from a culture where tipping is customary and part of everyday life.  I also think that incentive pay has many positive aspects.  I can understand how someone from another place where tipping does not happen might feel uncomfortable.  However, they should respect and abide by the rules, just as I would if I voluntarily encounter a custom for which I'm not familiar or comfortable.  

 

You voluntarily join a cruise. No one is forcing you to go.  If you elect to go then follow the established customs.  If you don't like them then go somewhere else that is a better fit.  

[Toofarfromthesea]

22 hours ago, ldubs said:

I come from a culture where tipping is customary and part of everyday life.  I also think that incentive pay has many positive aspects.  I can understand how someone from another place where tipping does not happen might feel uncomfortable.  However, they should respect and abide by the rules, just as I would if I voluntarily encounter a custom for which I'm not familiar or comfortable.  

 

You voluntarily join a cruise. No one is forcing you to go.  If you elect to go then follow the established customs.  If you don't like them then go somewhere else that is a better fit.  

The funny thing is that Americans are frequently accused of imposing their tipping culture on everyone while a) the mainstream cruiseline tipping culture isn't even the American culture - it is some sort of hybrid, 2) there is a lot more to the world than America, current and former British Empire countries, and Europe and I daresay that tipping is the norm in much of that rest of the world, and c) it is those who argue that there should be no tipping - the price should include it - who are trying to impose THEIR non-tipping culture on everyone else.

[GUT2407]

23 hours ago, ldubs said:

I come from a culture where tipping is customary and part of everyday life.  I also think that incentive pay has many positive aspects.  I can understand how someone from another place where tipping does not happen might feel uncomfortable.  However, they should respect and abide by the rules, just as I would if I voluntarily encounter a custom for which I'm not familiar or comfortable.  

 

You voluntarily join a cruise. No one is forcing you to go.  If you elect to go then follow the established customs.  If you don't like them then go somewhere else that is a better fit.  

And if the line allows you to remove the tips you are abud8ng by the rules.

 

pretty simple really.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

And if the line allows you to remove the tips you are abud8ng by the rules.

 

pretty simple really.

 

Sure is simple.  And if you find the service to be that horrible then the gratuity should be removed.  But we both know that is not what we are talking about.  

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 11/21/2018 at 9:41 PM, ldubs said:

 

Sure is simple.  And if you find the service to be that horrible then the gratuity should be removed.  But we both know that is not what we are talking about.  

Oh, you misunderstand.  These are generous loving people who only have the best interests of the crew at heart when they screw them over to try to make their situation so desperate that the cruiselines are forced to do what they want.

There is a special circle of hell for folks who do evil things because it is allowed.  

[jocap]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 12:40 AM, Heidi13 said:

On our cruise from Australia, the tips were included in the cruise fare.

 

Many cruises on British Lines also have tips included in the fare. P&O did try to introduce the tip policy, but it was a failure, so it is being reverted next year.

 

Our next cruise, a 2020 WC on Viking also has the tips included in the fare.

When RCI's Independence OTS was deployed year round in the UK, and not filling well, it was decided by the UK manager to include the bar tips into the price. This still happens on RCI ships out of the UK (plus he added kettles to cabins...  😄  ).

[navybankerteacher]

There are two valid reasons for the existing system on mainstream cruise lines:

 

A) Because voluntary gratuities (meaning gratuities which can be removed PRESUMABLY FOR CAUSE AND NOT JUST BECAUSE A CHEAPSKATE CAN SAVE A FEW DOLLARS) mean that in many home countries the staff pay less taxes - which saves passengers money to give the same net income to the staff.  Get rid of gratuities, you will have to pay more overall to give the crew the same amount.

 

B) A large part of what makes cruising attractive to many/most of the passengers is the service which they enjoy.  Like it or not, incentive pay works:  if the crew know that they will earn less by providing careless or poor service, they will extend effort to give the level of service which many/most passengers hope.

[Heidi13]

14 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

There are two valid reasons for the existing system on mainstream cruise lines:

 

A) Because voluntary gratuities (meaning gratuities which can be removed PRESUMABLY FOR CAUSE AND NOT JUST BECAUSE A CHEAPSKATE CAN SAVE A FEW DOLLARS) mean that in many home countries the staff pay less taxes - which saves passengers money to give the same net income to the staff.  Get rid of gratuities, you will have to pay more overall to give the crew the same amount.

In my experience, whether remuneration was paid as a full salary or stipend + tips, made no difference to my potential tax bill. While my experience is Princess, I suspect other Lines are probably similar.

 

Our son  worked for cruise lines more recently than me, and when he started he was paid entirely in cash, aboard the ship, as were the crew. No statement of earnings was issued, so it was his responsibility to report his income to the UK taxman or Revenue Canada.. Just prior to leaving, he was paid by direct deposit, but again did not receive a statement of earnings showing annual remuneration..

 

Basically the crew members can report any income they want when reporting income for tax purposes, with the only record being deposit amounts into their accounts.

[Underwatr]

40 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

In myexperience, whether remuneration was paid as a full salary or stipend + tips, made no difference to my potential tax bill. While my experience is Princess, I suspect other Lines are probably similar.

Your home country, like the US, taxes all income including tips.

NBT said that some home countries may not tax tips the same as wages/salary.

[Toofarfromthesea]

16 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

In my experience, whether remuneration was paid as a full salary or stipend + tips, made no difference to my potential tax bill. While my experience is Princess, I suspect other Lines are probably similar.

 

 

And just how long did you and your son live in the Philippines?  What a provincial and ignorant analysis.  A clue:  the whole world doesn't live under the rules of British Columbia.

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

And just how long did you and your son live in the Philippines?  What a provincial and ignorant analysis.  A clue:  the whole world doesn't live under the rules of British Columbia.

 

Come on now, I think Heidi's perspective is pretty clear.   I think you jumped a little too fast.  IMO, the last sentence of her post is key.    

 

 

 

[ldubs]

17 hours ago, Underwatr said:

Your home country, like the US, taxes all income including tips.

NBT said that some home countries may not tax tips the same as wages/salary.

 

The US taxes all income including tips?  I know what you mean but there are IRS rules about income earned & taxes paid in other countries. 

 

I have not bone to pick but would not have guessed any country using income tax would waive tips.  Learn something new every day I guess.  

[Underwatr]

Why would you think that? Tips are income, and a significant source of income for many.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Underwatr

[navybankerteacher]

Of course, gifts of up to $15,000 per year per recipient are not taxable in the US - some countries view VOLUNTARY tips as gifts, and do not tax them.  But money going into your pocket, regardless of source, is income.

 

Regardless of how different home countries may, or may not, tax different types of income - there is nothing wrong with the concept of    incentive pay - where jobs well done result in better pay.  On a cruise ship, the quality of the service provided is a major facet on the passenger’s enjoyment - just as it is a major part of the staff’s responsibility.

 

For such an incentive program to work on a cruise ship, there’s has to be some way of tying overall compensation to performance.   When cruising was limited to the wealthy,  performance pay was given out in envelopes on a one to one basis.  As the demographic shifted the lines saw  too many simply avoiding that tradition, so they shifted to the auto-gratuity approach.

 

  Sadly, there are some sleazes out there who see the system in place as a way to save a few $ — while pretending to cut gratuities as a valid protest.  Most of us know what   they are doing — and why.   

 

[Heidi13]

11 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

And just how long did you and your son live in the Philippines?  What a provincial and ignorant analysis.  A clue:  the whole world doesn't live under the rules of British Columbia.

Suggest you may want to actually read posts. No idea where you got Philippines from, since it wasn't even mentioned.

 

While working for Princess he was actually a UK resident, where mariners do not pay tax, if out of country for sufficient months.

 

Having been around the world many times, including numerous foreign ports, I really don't need any clues as to different rules around the world, but thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[ldubs]

8 hours ago, Underwatr said:

Why would you think that? Tips are income, and a significant source of income for many.

 

Why would who think what?  Not following?  

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

For such an incentive program to work on a cruise ship, there’s has to be some way of tying overall compensation to performance.   When cruising was limited to the wealthy,  performance pay was given out in envelopes on a one to one basis.  As the demographic shifted the lines saw  too many simply avoiding that tradition, so they shifted to the auto-gratuity approach.

  

 

 

On at least one major line an individual's share of the tip pool is tied to survey scores.  Higher scores = a larger share of the tip pool.  I can only say this for the one line but wouldn't be surprised if the approach is used by others. 

 

Those who have been around long enough will remember how empty the dining room was on the final (envelope) night.   Haha

[Toofarfromthesea]

13 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Suggest you may want to actually read posts. No idea where you got Philippines from, since it wasn't even mentioned.

 

While working for Princess he was actually a UK resident, where mariners do not pay tax, if out of country for sufficient months.

 

Having been around the world many times, including numerous foreign ports, I really don't need any clues as to different rules around the world, but thanks for pointing out the obvious.

 

Your post assumes reporting and taxation you and your son experienced somehow applies to everyone everywhere.  I mentioned the Philippines because a) they are one country that taxes gratuities different than wages, and b) there are a heck of a lot more Filipinos crewing cruiselines than Brits and Canadians.  

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Your post assumes reporting and taxation you and your son experienced somehow applies to everyone everywhere.  I mentioned the Philippines because a) they are one country that taxes gratuities different than wages, and b) there are a heck of a lot more Filipinos crewing cruiselines than Brits and Canadians.  

 

and, c) most of those few Brits and Canadians who do work on cruise ships are not employed in the service areas and are thus not included in the gratuity system.

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Your post assumes reporting and taxation you and your son experienced somehow applies to everyone everywhere.  I mentioned the Philippines because a) they are one country that taxes gratuities different than wages, and b) there are a heck of a lot more Filipinos crewing cruiselines than Brits and Canadians.  

 

Again, I think you are coming to unfair conclusions -- not sure why??  I don't see that the post assumes what you say it does.  Heidi gives the experiences of her and her son and shares that lack of doc's makes reporting kind of iffy.   

 

Hope I'm not getting in the middle of a feud of some sort -- Yikes! 

 

[pacruise804]

13 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Again, I think you are coming to unfair conclusions -- not sure why??  I don't see that the post assumes what you say it does.  Heidi gives the experiences of her and her son and shares that lack of doc's makes reporting kind of iffy.   

 

Hope I'm not getting in the middle of a feud of some sort -- Yikes! 

 

 

Off topic: I always thought Heidi13 was a screen name and not actually the poster's name.  In the signature it lists Andy & Judi - I assumed from other posts/threads that the poster is male (Andy).

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, pacruise804 said:

 

Off topic: I always thought Heidi13 was a screen name and not actually the poster's name.  In the signature it lists Andy & Judi - I assumed from other posts/threads that the poster is male (Andy).

 

Oops!  Thx.  

[Heidi13]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:38 AM, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Your post assumes reporting and taxation you and your son experienced somehow applies to everyone everywhere.  I mentioned the Philippines because a) they are one country that taxes gratuities different than wages, and b) there are a heck of a lot more Filipinos crewing cruiselines than Brits and Canadians.  

Actually was providing examples from having worked on cruise ships, at no time did I allege it applied to all crew members.

 

The point being made is when the discretionary service charges were implemented, on the cruise line I worked for, cruise ship wages were paid in cash aboard ship, for both the service crew and some officers.  Therefore, no incentive to declare income regardless of the respective tax rates for wages or tips.

 

Having worked in the industry for almost 40 years, I tend to forget that not everyone knows that shipping lines may not be renowned for looking after the best interests of the crew. I certainly don't, and I doubt if many serving or retired mariners would believe that cruise lines implemented a policy to potentially reduce a crew members tax bill. For those of us that worked on merchant ships, this is simply beyond comprehension.