ray98 Posted December 16, 2018 #26 Share Posted December 16, 2018 No changes needed....impossible to 'fall' overboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebucks Posted December 16, 2018 #27 Share Posted December 16, 2018 The problem with this discussion is you're all wrong about it. Logic and common sense do not apply here. Once the public starts hearing more and more about it, because it is hot news, then changes could start happening. Corporations may do it on their own because of negative PR, or lawmakers may demand it. That's how we end up with the majority of regulations we already have. It's about "doing something" to pander to the uninformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #28 Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Joebucks said: The problem with this discussion is you're all wrong about it. Logic and common sense do not apply here. Once the public starts hearing more and more about it, because it is hot news, then changes could start happening. Corporations may do it on their own because of negative PR, or lawmakers may demand it. That's how we end up with the majority of regulations we already have. It's about "doing something" to pander to the uninformed. Well, unless the bad PR gets to immense proportions, and bookings start to drop, the cruise lines have no incentive to make costly changes. As for lawmakers, this would require a revision to SOLAS to affect foreign flag cruise ships, so you would have to have lawmakers in many different countries agree that this is a major problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robc1972 Posted December 16, 2018 #29 Share Posted December 16, 2018 11 hours ago, Tapi said: Even though railings are high enough, the spacing between each rail seems big enough to fit a child. What size child did you have? I can barely get a hand between the rails, I cant even imagine how a kid would even fit through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisent Posted December 16, 2018 #30 Share Posted December 16, 2018 14 hours ago, Crusin Hogs said: The newer ships ,Dream ,Magic ,Breeze ,Vista ,Horizon , has deck 5 extended 20-25 ft out from the side of the ship ,So if you are on deck 6 or higher ,, you will meet deck 5 on your way down ,,, Fall from deck 4 or lower , hitting the water will not kill you ,,, I think this will become the new norm and it's a good thing. As stated above, if a person jumps, they only land on a deck below and their body won't be lost at sea, causing time and money searching for them. Also, i've seen ships that have really high clear glass around open decks. This is also good as it doesn't obstruct views and people can't climb them to jump overboard. You can't stop emotionally unstable or mentally ill people from boarding ships, but you can modify things to help protect them and I think it IS the ships responsibility to try and do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaded Lady Posted December 16, 2018 #31 Share Posted December 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, cruisent said: I think this will become the new norm and it's a good thing. As stated above, if a person jumps, they only land on a deck below and their body won't be lost at sea, causing time and money searching for them. Also, i've seen ships that have really high clear glass around open decks. This is also good as it doesn't obstruct views and people can't climb them to jump overboard. You can't stop emotionally unstable or mentally ill people from boarding ships, but you can modify things to help protect them and I think it IS the ships responsibility to try and do that. I personally hate the plexiglass- I feel like I'm in a giant aquarium! But that's me... But about your other comment, that ships have a responsibility to try and prevent people from jumping overboard, if that were true it would apply to so many other businesses- hotels, apartment buildings, subways... where does it end? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #32 Share Posted December 16, 2018 13 hours ago, Tapi said: Even though railings are high enough, the spacing between each rail seems big enough to fit a child. When my kids were younger, I’d be deathly afraid to be out on deck with them. Ships with glass rather than metal railings across make me feel safer, both for me and for the kids. 1 hour ago, robc1972 said: What size child did you have? I can barely get a hand between the rails, I cant even imagine how a kid would even fit through? Load line convention requires that even open handrails be 1 meter high (39.25"), minimum, that the bottom rail be no more than 9" from the deck, and intermediate rails be spaced horizontally no more than 12" apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #33 Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, cruisent said: I think this will become the new norm and it's a good thing. As stated above, if a person jumps, they only land on a deck below and their body won't be lost at sea, causing time and money searching for them. Also, i've seen ships that have really high clear glass around open decks. This is also good as it doesn't obstruct views and people can't climb them to jump overboard. You can't stop emotionally unstable or mentally ill people from boarding ships, but you can modify things to help protect them and I think it IS the ships responsibility to try and do that. Many ships have narrower upper decks in relation to the "main deck" (the first deck of the hull itself). This is not a "new norm" really, and is not to prevent folks from falling overboard. And when you go splat on a steel deck, you most likely are dead, while falling in the sea, while frequently fatal, is not 100% so. The glass enclosing open decks are up high, where the possibility of being smashed by seas is much less. To have those around the promenade deck would be foolish and costly. And to do this on balconies would be to essentially enclose the balcony, given that the deck above covers most of the balcony. As for protecting people from themselves, I remember when a passenger decided it would be a great deal of fun to slide down the curved banister in the atrium, broke the handrail, and impaled his thigh on one of the rail support brackets. You can only go so far, and you "can't coach stupid". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaded Lady Posted December 16, 2018 #34 Share Posted December 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: As for protecting people from themselves, I remember when a passenger decided it would be a great deal of fun to slide down the curved banister in the atrium, broke the handrail, and impaled his thigh on one of the rail support brackets. You can only go so far, and you "can't coach stupid". OMG!!! Some people need to just stop reproducing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisent Posted December 16, 2018 #35 Share Posted December 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Many ships have narrower upper decks in relation to the "main deck" (the first deck of the hull itself). This is not a "new norm" really, and is not to prevent folks from falling overboard. And when you go splat on a steel deck, you most likely are dead, while falling in the sea, while frequently fatal, is not 100% so. The glass enclosing open decks are up high, where the possibility of being smashed by seas is much less. To have those around the promenade deck would be foolish and costly. And to do this on balconies would be to essentially enclose the balcony, given that the deck above covers most of the balcony. As for protecting people from themselves, I remember when a passenger decided it would be a great deal of fun to slide down the curved banister in the atrium, broke the handrail, and impaled his thigh on one of the rail support brackets. You can only go so far, and you "can't coach stupid". I agree you can't completely protect people from themselves. But you can find ways to keep them on the ship at least. I'm sure it costs a lot of money (and time) to stop an itinerary for a search every time someone goes overboard. I think the cost of modifications to ships to prevent that will cost less in the long run to the cost of searching for them. I'm curious about your comment about the glass. How would plexiglass around the promenade deck be "foolish"? If it protects people from going overboard, it's a good thing. You can still have the views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #36 Share Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, cruisent said: I agree you can't completely protect people from themselves. But you can find ways to keep them on the ship at least. I'm sure it costs a lot of money (and time) to stop an itinerary for a search every time someone goes overboard. I think the cost of modifications to ships to prevent that will cost less in the long run to the cost of searching for them. I'm curious about your comment about the glass. How would plexiglass around the promenade deck be "foolish"? If it protects people from going overboard, it's a good thing. You can still have the views. First off, plexi is soft, so it will scratch with just the salt spray, taking away the view. Second, plexi degrades with UV from sunlight, so it will fog up, and also go brittle, causing it to break. The only other solution would be tempered glass, and this would not only be costly, but the real reason that you don't put large panes of glass or plexiglass as barriers close to the water is that they would be constantly breaking and having areas of the promenade deck roped off because of safety concerns. Why do "oceanview" cabins in the hull only have small windows? Why are many oceanview cabins above the promenade deck stepped back from the side of the ship? To prevent the glass from breaking, and even then, there was an RCI ship just this summer that had several hull "windows" (portlights) broken, that had to be covered with the bronze covers. Expanding this to large panes of glass is just impractical, when there is potential impact danger from hundreds of pounds (to tons) of sea water. Even the high glass panels up around the sports and pool decks break frequently. And, how frequently is "every time someone goes overboard"? Not very often considering the number of sailings and number of passengers that make it safely back to port. And, sorry to be cold about it, but why is it important to "keep them onboard", as opposed to landing on a deck or lifeboat and ending up in the morgue? Edited December 16, 2018 by chengkp75 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 16, 2018 #37 Share Posted December 16, 2018 21 hours ago, BoDidly said: I'm a firm believer that a person can fall off a cruise ship. I've had the displeasure of experiencing rough seas and feel that it's possible. Several have tried to change my mind on these boards but that's not going to happen. The designs wont change because people fall off ships. The ratio would have to increase quite a bit. I suppose it's possible for someone to be leaning over a railing when the ship took a sudden roll causing them to fall overboard but I don't recall seeing anything about rough seas being a factor in any of those man over boards that I've read about. You can be convinced all you'd like to be that someone can just fall off a ship but the fact remains that in order to do so one must be doing something one shouldn't be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #38 Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, sparks1093 said: I suppose it's possible for someone to be leaning over a railing when the ship took a sudden roll causing them to fall overboard but I don't recall seeing anything about rough seas being a factor in any of those man over boards that I've read about. You can be convinced all you'd like to be that someone can just fall off a ship but the fact remains that in order to do so one must be doing something one shouldn't be doing. Even in your scenario, you would have to be subjected to enough force, to propel you both laterally and vertically enough to clear the railing. It would require about 650 lb-ft of energy to lift a 200 lb man above a one meter high railing, plus the force to propel him beyond the railing. Given that the only force acting would be the weight of the person (the ship would be moving down, so no force on the person), its hard to generate the necessary energy from a standstill with only 200 lbs of mass. The only way that a "sudden roll" could toss someone overboard is if the height of the top of the rail is below the center of gravity of the person, so that when falling against the rail, your center of gravity propels you over the rail. Given that the center of gravity of a human is around the top of the pelvis, you'd have to be incredibly tall for this to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 16, 2018 #39 Share Posted December 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Even in your scenario, you would have to be subjected to enough force, to propel you both laterally and vertically enough to clear the railing. It would require about 650 lb-ft of energy to lift a 200 lb man above a one meter high railing, plus the force to propel him beyond the railing. Given that the only force acting would be the weight of the person (the ship would be moving down, so no force on the person), its hard to generate the necessary energy from a standstill with only 200 lbs of mass. The only way that a "sudden roll" could toss someone overboard is if the height of the top of the rail is below the center of gravity of the person, so that when falling against the rail, your center of gravity propels you over the rail. Given that the center of gravity of a human is around the top of the pelvis, you'd have to be incredibly tall for this to happen. So possible but not likely😉. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyeman27 Posted December 16, 2018 #40 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I have never read about anyone falling from high above in the Atriums', I have to wonder why, are the railings higher or is it the distasteful thought of the sudden stop that prevents people from trying to commit suicide there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted December 16, 2018 #41 Share Posted December 16, 2018 RCI or Carnival had a small girl fall two or three decks after climbing over a railing in the atrium this year, if I remember right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy007 Posted December 16, 2018 #42 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Have you ever toured an aircraft carrier? No railing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coevan Posted December 16, 2018 #43 Share Posted December 16, 2018 gravity has this odd property of keeping us on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine5715 Posted December 16, 2018 #44 Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 hours ago, chengkp75 said: RCI or Carnival had a small girl fall two or three decks after climbing over a railing in the atrium this year, if I remember right. Yes, on the Carnival Glory. She climbed up and hung well over to wave at family, lost her balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drafterdw Posted December 17, 2018 #45 Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/15/2018 at 5:12 PM, awreaper said: I can't ever remember an instance where a cruiser was minding their own business walking around the deck and just fell off the boat, even in rough seas. If it became that rough I assume they would not let anyone out on deck. If someone wants to do something stupid or wants to commit suicide they will find a way. We were on a ship during hurricane and all outside decks were closed and being monitored by staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robc1972 Posted December 17, 2018 #46 Share Posted December 17, 2018 7 hours ago, cruisent said: I agree you can't completely protect people from themselves. But you can find ways to keep them on the ship at least. I'm sure it costs a lot of money (and time) to stop an itinerary for a search every time someone goes overboard. I think the cost of modifications to ships to prevent that will cost less in the long run to the cost of searching for them. Since I was on the Victory when the last one went over I have been reading a lot about it last couple days. Over 20,000,000 people are going on cruises every year Every year on average 17 people go overboard That works out to 0.000085 percent of the passengers per year go overboard Not one of the roughly 300 passengers going overboard since 2000 have been a result of a design flaw in the construction of the ship. After thorough investigation of each incident it was determined that the person that went overboard was responsible for them ending up in the water. You are asking for a solution to a problem that is not a problem and if a solution to the non problem is put in place these people will find a way around the safeguards put in place just like they have found a way around the safeguards already in place. They probably have some kind of insurance policy that would cover the cost of the fuel needed in a search. It probably cost them about a hundred grand in fuel to go back and look for the one that went overboard on the Victory but that was about an 9 hour mission. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggielover68 Posted December 17, 2018 #47 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Will they stop putting windows on buildings because people jump out of them? Will they stop building bridges? No one accidentally falls off of a cruise ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 17, 2018 #48 Share Posted December 17, 2018 9 hours ago, Elaine5715 said: Yes, on the Carnival Glory. She climbed up and hung well over to wave at family, lost her balance. 11 hours ago, chengkp75 said: RCI or Carnival had a small girl fall two or three decks after climbing over a railing in the atrium this year, if I remember right. It was the Glory and it happened shortly before we boarded for our cruise as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sc4125 Posted December 17, 2018 #49 Share Posted December 17, 2018 19 hours ago, cruisent said: I think this will become the new norm and it's a good thing. As stated above, if a person jumps, they only land on a deck below and their body won't be lost at sea, causing time and money searching for them. Also, i've seen ships that have really high clear glass around open decks. This is also good as it doesn't obstruct views and people can't climb them to jump overboard. You can't stop emotionally unstable or mentally ill people from boarding ships, but you can modify things to help protect them and I think it IS the ships responsibility to try and do that. As far as putting in really high clear glass around open decks, how high are they? If a person wants to commit suicide, what's to stop them from pulling over a chair & climbing up? As it is now, they have to "climb" up in order to stand on a rail. People acting like idiots may find climbing on a chair to reach the high glass even more daring. I don't think the cruise industry has any liability for people going overboard and I don't think they should, just like I don't think we should do away with high bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired_to_Cruise Posted December 17, 2018 #50 Share Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) On 12/15/2018 at 3:13 PM, Ocean Spirit said: Most of us know you simply can't just fall off the ship unless there is foul play or you are doing something stupid like sitting or standing on the railing. However we continue to see passengers going overboard. Do you think there will ever be a significant change in design of the balconies and decks to prevent this occurring. I hate the thought of losing the openness and views you get while at sea. I think we should demand that cruise companies build bigly, massive walls around every deck on every cruise ship to keep people from falling off the ships. If they don't we will have people from all over the world coming here to get on ships so they can fall off. Edited December 17, 2018 by Retired_to_Cruise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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