Pricing concerns on Celebrity Edge

[MisterBill99]

13 minutes ago, kelmac said:

November 24, 7 night cruise in the cheapest 1B balcony cabin is $2,582 per person w/two of the four perks.  I guess the OBC + the drink package would bring it down some.  You only get all four perks with a suite.

I think Celebrity will come to their senses and start offering better deals as the demand wanes.

 

Kel

 

Not sure where you're looking but that's not correct -- check out the Celebrity page. Fine print says "Cruise must be booked 01/17/19 – 01/23/19. Offer applies to select Celebrity Edge cruises departing 05/01/19 – 12/31/19." And it's for oceanview or above.

 

https://www.celebritycruises.com/cruise-deals/special-event-cruise-offer

 

And I think demand has already waned, thus this offer.

 

I even did a test booking:

Deluxe Ocean View with Veranda

First Guest

$2,549.00

Second Guest

$2,549.00

Discount

-$200.00

Packages

4-Perks Package

Complimentary

• $150 per Person to Spend Onboard
• Unlimited High-Speed Internet for 2
• Prepaid Tips for 2
• Premium Beverage Package for 2

Dining

Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner (Excludes specialty dining)

Complimentary

Main Dining Time - Anytime Dining

Taxes & Fees

Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses

$265.38

---

Trip Total

$5,163.38 USD

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by MisterBill99

[The_Big_M]

9 minutes ago, MisterBill99 said:

 

 

And I think demand has already waned, thus this offer.

 

Yes, if they're letting sailings go with many empty cabins, that's just revenue opportunities they're throwing away.

 

They would obviously hope to retain a price level and hope they can get bookings to increase by such incentives to temporarily fill the gap. However, if they still can't manage to get bookings to recover it's clear evidence (for the few who don't believe it) that they have overpriced the product and they need to reset them lower to meet the market reality.

[MisterBill99]

21 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

However, if they still can't manage to get bookings to recover it's clear evidence (for the few who don't believe it) that they have overpriced the product and they need to reset them lower to meet the market reality.

 

Their pricing was based on heavy initial demand. Prices were not this high to begin with. I booked a C2 for $1599 and $1649 in the spring of 2017. The other categories had already gone up quite a bit by then and Concierge Class pricing was comparable to an IV. Then those prices more than doubled, presumably based on supply and demand. Concierge on the sailing I priced earlier are $2949, so still very high.

 

Yet now we have supply and lessened demand so as you saw, they may have to reset them.

Edited January 18, 2019 by MisterBill99

[Hlitner]

The pricing issue (and cost/benefit) with Celebrity started soon after the arrival of Lisa Lutoff-Perlo (CEO)..with the Edge being the icing on the cake :(.  Since we are not "brand loyal" and love variety, the Celebrity pricing schemes have driven us to other lines where we get much better value for our money.   We recently had a wonderful time on MSC's Divina in their Yacht Club...where our total cost per day was a bargain compared to X (although X has nothing comparable to the Yacht Club).  Next summer we booked an Alaskan cruise on Seabourn which, given what one gets with Seabourn, blew away any Celebrity pricing.   The OP posted a comparison to Crystal (in an entirely different class then X) with Crystal offering lower prices!  

 

Perhaps Celebrity can get away with their pricing given the large number of cruisers who get into this "loyalty" thing where they stick to one or two cruise lines...no matter the price.  But the price/benefit/value of Celebrity no longer stacks up well against many better options.

 

Hank

 

 

[Stateroom_Sailor]

13 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

The pricing issue (and cost/benefit) with Celebrity started soon after the arrival of Lisa Lutoff-Perlo (CEO)..with the Edge being the icing on the cake :(. 

 

 

 

- She started at Royal Caribbean International as District Sales Manager for New England and from August 2008 to August 2012 she was responsible for Celebrity Cruises’ hotel operation.

- Ms. Lutoff-Perlo served as an Executive Vice President of Operations - Royal Caribbean International, at... Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. since September 2012 until December 2014.

- Ms. Lisa Lutoff-Perlo has been the President and Chief Executive Officer of Celebrity Cruises at Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. since December 2014. 

 

Is it just me, or is this a quick rise to the top?

[Hlitner]

23 minutes ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

 

- She started at Royal Caribbean International as District Sales Manager for New England and from August 2008 to August 2012 she was responsible for Celebrity Cruises’ hotel operation.

- Ms. Lutoff-Perlo served as an Executive Vice President of Operations - Royal Caribbean International, at... Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. since September 2012 until December 2014.

- Ms. Lisa Lutoff-Perlo has been the President and Chief Executive Officer of Celebrity Cruises at Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. since December 2014. 

 

Is it just me, or is this a quick rise to the top?

Perhaps her fast rise is because she is very adept at increasing the bottom line (profits).  While that is certainly good for the cruise line (and stockholders) it might not be so good for cruisers who are looking for price/benefit vs the competition.   Cutting operating costs while increasing average fares per passenger day is all good for the bottom line...and awful for the customer.

 

Hank

[Host Jazzbeau]

3 hours ago, MisterBill99 said:

BTW, while the Edge prices seem (and are) high, they currently have a promotion where the price includes all 4 perks, including the Premium Beverage Package. So while they are not lowering the prices to what many would consider reasonable (or to fill the ship), they are offering a more all inclusive experience for that price.

 

This is how the entry-luxury lines [e.g. Oceania] have traditionally operated.  Never cut prices, but if bookings are soft add benefits to gin up interest.  With the emphasis on suites in the design of Edge and the Revolution, I think this is the model that Celebrity wants to follow.  Oceania, unlike full-luxury lines like Seabourn, has Insides, OVs, and Verandas as well as Suites – so this isn't crazy and would restore their position in the RCL brand pecking order.

[MisterBill99]

14 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

This is how the entry-luxury lines [e.g. Oceania] have traditionally operated.  Never cut prices, but if bookings are soft add benefits to gin up interest.  With the emphasis on suites in the design of Edge and the Revolution, I think this is the model that Celebrity wants to follow.  Oceania, unlike full-luxury lines like Seabourn, has Insides, OVs, and Verandas as well as Suites – so this isn't crazy and would restore their position in the RCL brand pecking order.

 

I've only sailed Oceania one time but that was not what I've seen. They have their standard O Life perks, which do not change (and which you can book without). What they DO offer, similar to what HAL does, is discounted upsells. Now, Celebrity has started this, but in a different way - the customer bids on an update. But it does not appear that they are doing this with Edge, either (I certainly did not get anything for either of my sailings).

 

Also, the all-inclusive perks on Edge are even on the cheaper categories, except for insides. The suites obviously already had them included in the price.

[Host Jazzbeau]

What I meant was that Oceania doesn't [or at least didn't use to] advertise price-cut sales.

[MisterBill99]

28 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

What I meant was that Oceania doesn't [or at least didn't use to] advertise price-cut sales.

 

That is true. They did advertise price increases and early booking sales, although the price increases didn't always happen.

 

Didn't Celebrity say a couple of years ago that they were going to stop reducing prices to fill the ships? Then they kept doing it. Maybe now they mean it, at least for Edge.

Edited January 18, 2019 by MisterBill99

[Stateroom_Sailor]

48 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Perhaps her fast rise is because she is very adept at increasing the bottom line (profits).  While that is certainly good for the cruise line (and stockholders) it might not be so good for cruisers who are looking for price/benefit vs the competition.   Cutting operating costs while increasing average fares per passenger day is all good for the bottom line...and awful for the customer.

 

Hank

 

Out of RCCL's playbook, cutting costs and increasing fares.

 

We've been lucky enough to book off season, or on reposition cruises, to get Aqua for $100 - $150 a night.  Sometimes that means booking early, before they skyrockets.  Others have been priced too high for far too long, and plummet the last 6 months.  Playing pricing games, isn't going to pan out 100% of the time.

 

Much like you, we're looking beyond Celebrity post-Revolution.  If there was something beyond new decor and limited amenity space, they would be cheerleading it.

[Host Jazzbeau]

28 minutes ago, MisterBill99 said:

 

That is true. They did advertise price increases and early booking sales, although the price increases didn't always happen.

 

Didn't Celebrity say a couple of years ago that they were going to stop reducing prices to fill the ships? Then they kept doing it. Maybe now they mean it, at least for Edge.

 

RCL said they were going to stop the 'fire sales' after final payment, and I believe they have.  It's the old 'moral hazard' problem – you give away cabins at the last minute to increase revenue, but then people start relying on that and delay booking until the last minute, which makes you panic and cut prices sooner and deeper.  So now they are trying the opposite tack: keep prices high, accept some sailings with empty cabins, re-educate customers to book early.  At least one luxury cruise line publicly states that their cheapest fares will always be at launch – they will raise all fares at set times regardless of sales.  That takes courage, but I believe that in the end [in a good economy] it will produce the highest revenues.  And it avoids upsetting your loyal early-booking customers when they learn that the johnny-come-latelies paid less.

[deliver42]

I believe RCL has stopped the fire sales. I'm booked on the Symphony for March,2, and the prices have actually gone up since our booking. No drops since final payment.

[Hlitner]

9 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

RCL said they were going to stop the 'fire sales' after final payment, and I believe they have.  It's the old 'moral hazard' problem – you give away cabins at the last minute to increase revenue, but then people start relying on that and delay booking until the last minute, which makes you panic and cut prices sooner and deeper.  So now they are trying the opposite tack: keep prices high, accept some sailings with empty cabins, re-educate customers to book early.  At least one luxury cruise line publicly states that their cheapest fares will always be at launch – they will raise all fares at set times regardless of sales.  That takes courage, but I believe that in the end [in a good economy] it will produce the highest revenues.  And it avoids upsetting your loyal early-booking customers when they learn that the johnny-come-latelies paid less.

That pricing strategy has been tried, in the past, and has never (until now) held for any length of time.  The problem for the cruise lines is that if they sail with an empty berth, that is "opportunity lost" revenue that can never be recovered.  Not only do empty berths mean fewer cruise fares, but they also translate to less onboard revenue...which is now the main profit driver for the mass market lines.   I wish I had a crystal ball to forecast what will happen in the future :).  But as of now we are already seeing some last minute pricing/promotion games.  There are still some last minute fire sales, but they seem to be generally done quietly through certain cruise agencies that are not permitted to advertise the deals.  Certain cruise agencies maintain private e-mail lists (in most cases anyone can sign up for free) and the special deals are relayed via e-mails...and not found on the public web sites or the cruise line's own site.   One high volume agency we use now will list (via a private link) all the various deals for each category of cabin so one might find 3 or more different prices/packages for each cabin.   We have previously snagged some excellent last minute deals on Celebrity, although that line has fallen out of favor with us...so we seldom bother to look these days.  HAL has had some amazing last minute deals as does Princess.  And Princess will often have fantastic air fares to go along with these last minute deals which can make a very attractive package.  We did a last minute booking last fall on the Regal Princess when she did her repo cruise from Copenhagen to NYC.  Princess also had an amazing deal on Business Class air to get us to Copenhagen and we quickly booked.  It was the same with the Regal's annual repo cruise from NYC to Ft Lauderdale (some call this the Halloween Cruise) where the cost of a balcony, when netted with on board credits, could be about $60 per passenger day....far less then what was paid by folks who had booked early.

 

Things are going to change in the Caribbean market over the next few years.  MSC keeps increasing their presence (their third large ship is moving into the Florida/Caribbean market later this year) and Virgin Cruises will also be soon entering that same market.  We keep mentioning that MSC is rapidly expanding their fleet (adding about 2 new ships per year) and they directly compete against lines such as RCI and Carnival.  Their Yacht Club is currently an amazing value that is not matched by any other line.  In fact the Yacht Club has proven to be so popular that MSC will soon be building several smaller "Yacht Club class' ships that will compete against luxury line.

 

Hank

[cruiserchuck]

9 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

RCL said they were going to stop the 'fire sales' after final payment, and I believe they have.  It's the old 'moral hazard' problem – you give away cabins at the last minute to increase revenue, but then people start relying on that and delay booking until the last minute, which makes you panic and cut prices sooner and deeper.  So now they are trying the opposite tack: keep prices high, accept some sailings with empty cabins, re-educate customers to book early.  At least one luxury cruise line publicly states that their cheapest fares will always be at launch – they will raise all fares at set times regardless of sales.  That takes courage, but I believe that in the end [in a good economy] it will produce the highest revenues.  And it avoids upsetting your loyal early-booking customers when they learn that the johnny-come-latelies paid less.

 

Celebrity still offers many last minute discounts.  If you look at the Exciting Deals they offer each week, they are all discounted cruises that are within the final payment period.  However, no perks are offered, so even though the prices are much lower, it is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Hlitner]

29 minutes ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

Celebrity still offers many last minute discounts.  If you look at the Exciting Deals they offer each week, they are all discounted cruises that are within the final payment period.  However, no perks are offered, so even though the prices are much lower, it is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

You are talking about using the Celebrity web site.  But things can be somewhat different when using certain cruise agencies who "enhance" the exciting deal pricing with OBCs.    As to Apples to Oranges, you are so right.  Since we are often doing comparisons between various offerings (on about a dozen cruise lines) we use a simple technique of comparison based on the cost per person/day.  When there are promotions such as drink packages we simply value each promotional item by their real value (to us) and completely ignore the faux values used by cruise lines to make some promotions look more attractive.  For example,  a drink package that might be valued (by the cruise line) at $110 per person/day is only worth about $45 per person/day to us...based on our own drinking habits.  Free Internet is sometimes worthless to us since we get enough free minutes because of our frequent cruiser status.

 

Hank

[MisterBill99]

10 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

You are talking about using the Celebrity web site.  But things can be somewhat different when using certain cruise agencies who "enhance" the exciting deal pricing with OBCs.   

 

Right, but if you booked a normal fare with a travel agent you'd get the perk(s) from Celebrity and OBC. If you book an Xciting Deal with the agent, you'll get OBC but no perks (same as if you did a senior or resident rate). And they do not seem to be offering any of those special pricing deals on Edge.

[cruiserchuck]

23 minutes ago, MisterBill99 said:

 

Right, but if you booked a normal fare with a travel agent you'd get the perk(s) from Celebrity and OBC. If you book an Xciting Deal with the agent, you'll get OBC but no perks (same as if you did a senior or resident rate). And they do not seem to be offering any of those special pricing deals on Edge.

 

I have not seen any Exciting Deals for Edge.  That may explain the reports of empty cabins, which you almost never hear about on other Celebrity ships.

[MisterBill99]

6 hours ago, deliver42 said:

I believe RCL has stopped the fire sales. I'm booked on the Symphony for March,2, and the prices have actually gone up since our booking. No drops since final payment.

 

They still have their Tuesday "Going, Going, Gone" specials (link below is for next week's sale). Your cruise is listed, but only for inside cabins.

 

For the sailing after yours on 3/9, a suite guarantee (WS) is going for $1799.

 

http://www.creative.rccl.com/Sales/Royal/Multi_Dest/Special_Offers/rci_sales_event.pdf

Edited January 18, 2019 by MisterBill99

[The_Big_M]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:31 PM, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

RCL said they were going to stop the 'fire sales' after final payment, and I believe they have.  It's the old 'moral hazard' problem – you give away cabins at the last minute to increase revenue, but then people start relying on that and delay booking until the last minute, which makes you panic and cut prices sooner and deeper.  So now they are trying the opposite tack: keep prices high, accept some sailings with empty cabins, re-educate customers to book early.  At least one luxury cruise line publicly states that their cheapest fares will always be at launch – they will raise all fares at set times regardless of sales.  That takes courage, but I believe that in the end [in a good economy] it will produce the highest revenues.  And it avoids upsetting your loyal early-booking customers when they learn that the johnny-come-latelies paid less.

 

I don't recall them doing that. 

 

They did say they would not discount further from only a certain day out, and only on limited cruises. So some cruises may not stop discounting and would continue as they always have been, and others could still continue being discounted up to say 10 days before sailing, and then still retain that discount to the point of sales closing. Which would not be a material change in discounting.

 

So it was more price signalling, rather than a major change in policy.

Edited January 19, 2019 by The_Big_M

[kelmac]

It does seem like Celebrity is starting to throw "perks" at their higher price scheme, but when you crunch the actual numbers, it's the same cost as before.  I was looking at switching my Nov 24th Edge cruise with the Dec 1st cruise, which has more OBC + two of the four perks in an OV cabin, but the price is about the same and you are forced into a cabin on deck three, which is sandwiched between a crew deck and the main public deck above.

My $168.10 per person per day in a CAT 10 inside cabin is about as good as you can do right now.  The following week I'm paying $88.43 per person per day in a CAT L inside cabin on a new ship, the Nieuw Statendam.  Is Celebrity now worth twice as much as Holland America?  

 

I do love Celebrity, but....,

Kel

[cruiserchuck]

59 minutes ago, kelmac said:

It does seem like Celebrity is starting to throw "perks" at their higher price scheme, but when you crunch the actual numbers, it's the same cost as before.  I was looking at switching my Nov 24th Edge cruise with the Dec 1st cruise, which has more OBC + two of the four perks in an OV cabin, but the price is about the same and you are forced into a cabin on deck three, which is sandwiched between a crew deck and the main public deck above.

My $168.10 per person per day in a CAT 10 inside cabin is about as good as you can do right now.  The following week I'm paying $88.43 per person per day in a CAT L inside cabin on a new ship, the Nieuw Statendam.  Is Celebrity now worth twice as much as Holland America?  

 

I do love Celebrity, but....,

Kel

 

We usually sail with Celebrity, but just took a heavily discount Holland America cruise (under $100 per person per day for CAT VC veranda).  We enjoyed the cruise, and do not beleive Celebrity is worth twice as much as Holland America. 

[dpm321]

On 1/16/2019 at 9:18 AM, kelmac said:

 

Hi S,

HAL's new smoking policy:

--No smoking in cabins.

--No smoking on balconies.

--Some ships have non-smoking casinos; others have non-smoking evenings; some have a smoking section of the casino.

--Limited outdoor smoking areas.

 

We were on the Eurodam last month and there was no smoking on the promenade deck.  We experienced more smoking areas on Royal Caribbean and NCL compared to Holland America.  Considerable improvement in just a couple of years!

 

Enjoy!

Kel

Have they changed the unwritten policy of rolling up the sidewalks at 9 PM?  This is why we quit sailing them a few years ago in favor of celebrity.

[yorky]

If Celebrity want to continue asking these prices for the new ships they had better be offering something special because it’s pretty obvious the likes of the Yacht club on MSC are blowing them out of the water and Holland America are offering a simular quality at a far lower price. Personally I feel the way they are trying to move is going to backfire given the competition, and the fact the product they offer is nowhere near what they offered in the past. Celebrity used to be close to a luxury brand, under RC it’s now mainstream but charging luxury prices on these new ships. Experienced cruisers are not daft or loyal to the degree they will just pay anything, way too many other options these days.

[MisterBill99]

On 2/10/2019 at 12:29 PM, dpm321 said:

Have they changed the unwritten policy of rolling up the sidewalks at 9 PM?  This is why we quit sailing them a few years ago in favor of celebrity.

 

Most definitely. They have a great "Music Walk" with different music venues at night. They have BB King's for jazz, Lincoln Center Live for classical, Rolling Stone Rock Room (newly introduced) and Billboard Online, which is dueling pianos/singers. We really enjoyed the last one, and the 10pm show was always full. Also, they have a Chocolate Parade at 10pm once during the cruise.