The Elbe river 2019 - not just water levels

[notamermaid]

arlowood and jazzbeau,

 

the fact that Viking did indeed build the ships to cater for the shallow waters of the Elbe, with special propelling system even, but nevertheless encounters these problems has had me puzzled for the last two years. AnhalterER1960's explanation of the river bends has been really helpful. I do wonder why Viking went for the bigger size then? The Astrild and the Beyla are indeed larger than the old ships they had used. As regards draft, the interesting fact is that the two new ships are larger but have a shallower draft than the old ships (apparently due to new building materials used). A comparison of old and new, with the Elbe Princesse thrown in:

 

Clara Schumann (now Lale Andersen) and Theodor Fontane (now Junker Jörg) both:

built 1990/91

length 94.8m

width 11m

draft 1.27m maximum

passengers 112

 

Viking Astrild und Viking Beyla both:

built 2014/15

length 109.9m

width 11.45m

draft 1.15m maximum

passengers 98

 

Elbe Princesse

built 2016

length 95.37m

width 10.5m

draft 0.90m maximum

passengers 80

 

(All info taken from wikipedia in German and cross-checked with other German sites)

 

I think Viking has just been caught out by the extreme conditions in the last few years that could not have been anticipated by anybody. As a side note, there is of course the possibility of getting an itinerary together that would focus on stretches of the Elbe downstream, but I think the appeal for the American market is not there (apart from the logistics of getting to a major airport being a bit awkward). CroisiEurope did some smart thinking by going back to the old system of paddle propulsion that has proved so suitable for the Elbe. The innovation was putting the paddlewheels at the back rather than the side of the ship.

 

Hope you find this interesting.

 

notamermaid

 

[steamboats]

Both, the length and the draft are important. Those 90 cm allow the CroisiEurope boats to cruise longer in a low water situation than the Viking boats with 115 cm. The paddlewheel propulsion combined with a flat bottom hull allows a shallower draft. Screws have to be more or less under the hull and are the first parts to tough the bottom of the river. The paddlewheel can be even a little higher than the bottom of the hull as it has only to touch the water. Side wheels make a boat more maneuverable than a stern wheel (independent wheels can be used to more or less turn a boat on a dime as one wheel can propell forward and the other one backwards).

 

The length is important for turning around a bend in low water and also to turn around the boat in the middle of the river. With low water the navigable channel gets narrower.

 

steamboats

[AnhaltER1960]

No idea, where the 1,15 draft of the Beyla and the Astrild come from. Yes I know, wikipedia.....

 

Cruise critic states a minimum draft of 84 cm for the Astrild (https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/reviews/review.cfm?ShipID=896) and this comes a bit closer. Looking at the marking of the Astrild or the Beyla you see a draft of 95 cm, give or take a few cm. So, as far as the draft is concerned, not much difference to the Elbe Princesses.

 

1 hour ago, steamboats said:

The paddlewheel propulsion combined with a flat bottom hull allows a shallower draft. Screws have to be more or less under the hull and are the first parts to tough the bottom of the river.

Also the Viking ships on the Elbe do not use screws. They use pump jets.

 

The Elbe Princesses are some 15 m shorter than the Astrild/Beyla giving them some advantage there. But CroisiEurope have their ships sailing all the way from Berlin to Prague, which means Elbe from Magdeburg until Melnik, which Viking gave up two (or three) years ago. But the actual shallow waters stop them both, and at the same time. So there is not much difference in the performance despite some differences in ship design.

 

The situation on the Elbe is unchanged. There even had been some spills of rain. But bar the raindrops, which directly hit the river, the Elbe hasnt seen any of the precipitation. All soaked up by the plants (and here rather leaves than roots) and the soil. A bit more rain is forecast for the weekend, even some heavy thunderstorms. But I doubt that this will be enough to fill the river.

[notamermaid]

The pump jets, yes. I hunted at that special system in my post. It was a true design innovation. A pity it is rendered useless in these conditions, but then, even CroisiEurope cannot sail the Elbe Princesse either at the moment. The itinerary with the actual chance of sailing into Prague is great when it works out.

 

I gave the 1.15m for the Astrild as the maximum from two German sites, as stated. Another website gives the draft as 0.95m minimum to 1.15m maximum.

 

notamermaid

 

[steamboats]

Schottel pump jets are built into the hull on the bottom which is better in shallow waters. Anyway the paddlewheel is even above the bottom of the hull (but of course building a good paddlewheel is not an easy matter).

 

steamboats

[notamermaid]

45 minutes ago, steamboats said:

Schottel pump jets are built into the hull on the bottom which is better in shallow waters. Anyway the paddlewheel is even above the bottom of the hull (but of course building a good paddlewheel is not an easy matter).

 

steamboats

There was something not quite right with the wheels on the Elbe Princesse. I did not follow that topic in 2016. In 2017 she sailed with improved new wheels. The guys on Binnenschifferforum talked about it.

 

While on the Rhine they did away gradually with any of the paddlewheelers that were still in operation after WWII the Elbe has kept them, the river being so different it makes perfect sense. The Rhine has turned into a motorway for ships.

 

Here is the steamship company: https://www.saechsische-dampfschiffahrt.de/#

 

They mention James Watt in their marketing. He was the pioneer of steam engines. The first ship with a Watt steam engine on the Rhine was the Defiance in 1816, on the Elbe the Lady of the Lake also in 1816. But the first commercial steam ship is older: the Clermont on the Hudson from New York to Albany in 1807!

 

notamermaid

 

[G.M.T.]

I think the Elbe should be drained and turned into a Radweg (cycle path), would save a lot of headaches and aggrivation.

 

Luckily the Danube has both river (well at least sometimes) and cycle paths:

 

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/reise/donau-radweg-oesterreich-ungarn-kreuzfahrt-fahrrad-1.4476383?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[notamermaid]

That is an interesting notion. Perhaps a bit too drastic for the Dresden people, the authorities should allow them the steamships and rowing boats and reduce the federal waterway status. Viking could just sail the Elbe from Geesthacht to Hamburg. Got an international airport handy then as well. Forget Prague and leave it to the locals and the Asians.

 

I have heard good things about the Danube cycle path. And when things get a bit too strenuous they can hop on the smaller bike and sail ships that are only around 100m long. Some nice itineraries there. Or we get some narrowboats shipped over from the Derbyshire canals.

 

Oh, they might work on th Elbe as well, mightn't they?

 

notamermaid

 

[jpalbny]

1 hour ago, notamermaid said:

But the first commercial steam ship is older: the Clermont on the Hudson from New York to Albany in 1807!

 

I've heard of that place! Yes, Fulton's steamship is our claim to fame. She had a 19-horsepower engine and a top speed of 5MPH (8km/h).

[steamboats]

@notamermaid Yes, CroisiEurope struggled with the design of the paddlewheels. They first tried out fixed blades. Everyone with a little knowledge about steamboats could have told them that this doesn´t work out. They made totally new paddlewheels for the Elbe Princesse 1.

 

@G.M.T. They already have great bike paths along the Elbe river and where does Dresden (and other towns along the river) get their drinking water from when you pave the river 😉 ?

 

Yes, we have to blame Fulton for the first steamboat....

 

steamboats

[G.M.T.]

1 hour ago, steamboats said:

@G.M.T. They already have great bike paths along the Elbe river and where does Dresden (and other towns along the river) get their drinking water from when you pave the river 😉 ?

 

steamboats

To paraphase Maria Antoinette

 

"Let them drink beer".

 

🍻🥨🍻

[FuelScience]

Does the Elbe have similar problems downstream from Berlin? None of the lines serving North America seem to sail to Hamburg, but it might be a route worth pursuing if it doesn't suffer from the same navigation issues as the upper Elbe.

[AnhaltER1960]

51 minutes ago, FuelScience said:

Does the Elbe have similar problems downstream from Berlin? None of the lines serving North America seem to sail to Hamburg, but it might be a route worth pursuing if it doesn't suffer from the same navigation issues as the upper Elbe.

 

Firstly, the Elbe does nowhere get any closer to Berlin than 80/100 mls. But apart from that, yes, the lower Elbe also has some shallow parts.  At Magdeburg there is the "Dome Rock" ("Domfelsen" in German), which is a rocky outcrop within otherwise loose sands and forms a veritable threshold. Downriver from Magdeburg the Elbe is even less regulated, the navigation channel not really maintained, as there is a channel (not really) parallel to the Elbe, the Elbe Lateral Channel, which allows all-year sailing from Hamburg to Wolfsburg and from there on the Mittelland-Channel to Madgeburg and into Berlin.

 

There are indeed only a few sailings offered the Elbe all the way down to Hamburg, mostly in spring with usually higher water tables. 

[pacmom]

Two weeks ago we were in Magdeburg on our CroisiEurope trip and the Elbe was at 74cm.  So sad to see it so low. This was our Berlin-Amsterdam  trip.  Pat

[geekette]

Our sailing has been turned into a boatel trip also (due to leave on 7/25).  I'd rather not go, but it's a Mom/daughters trip (and Mom's paying), it's not really my call.

Does anyone know how the 50% credit toward future cruises is done?  Do we 4 have to go again as a group?  Mom's said she doesn't intend to fly to Europe again (she's 84 - doing great, but for how long?)

I'd love to use "my" credit to go with my DH on a cruise, if possible.

[notamermaid]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:32 PM, geekette said:

Our sailing has been turned into a boatel trip also (due to leave on 7/25).  I'd rather not go, but it's a Mom/daughters trip (and Mom's paying), it's not really my call.

Does anyone know how the 50% credit toward future cruises is done?  Do we 4 have to go again as a group?  Mom's said she doesn't intend to fly to Europe again (she's 84 - doing great, but for how long?)

I'd love to use "my" credit to go with my DH on a cruise, if possible.

 

While a good amount of rain got the river up to 87cm at Dresden on 15 July, it is now back at 64cm. I cannot see the river returning to a decent level any time soon.

 

As regards the credit question, I would put it separate in a new thread.

 

Hope you a great time along the Elbe landscape exploring East Germany with family 🙂.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[notamermaid]

With rain coming and going the Elbe has its ups and downs. From the high on 15 July of 87cm, it fell quite a bit. The next rainy phase brought the level up again to 79cm on 23 July. The amount of rain is not enough to sustain the river level and the gauge at Dresden has fallen again to 49cm.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

On the Elbe the situation deteriorated last week. Magdeburg got a new low water record but at the time of writing this article it was not official yet (from German regional newspaper): https://m.volksstimme.de/lokal/magdeburg/elbe-magdeburger-niedrigwasser-rekord

 

At Dresden the gauge shows 56cm this lunchtime and I fear any improvement - if it happens - will only be short-lived.

 

notamermaid

 

[oldgeez]

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

 

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

[Host Jazzbeau]

3 hours ago, oldgeez said:

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

 

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

 

Unless you can read German, my guess is that you are already on the best site (i.e. this thread, which is kept up to date by notamermaid).

[oldgeez]

2 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

Unless you can read German, my guess is that you are already on the best site (i.e. this thread, which is kept up to date by notamermaid).

 

My high school German was a long time ago. 

[AnhaltER1960]

5 hours ago, oldgeez said:

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

Look here: http://www.pla.cz/portal/sap/en/PC/?data=1

for the water levels and discharge in the Czech Republic. Water discharge at Decin below round 100 cubic metres per second mean not enough water to sail further downriver.

 

So far the situation remains unchanged from the last weeks. It does rain occasionally, but mostly local and not enough to refill the Elbe. Furthermore, last years drought dried out the soils, so they keep every drop they can get, as well as the plants. So even moderate or local railfalls do not reach the river. 

 

5 hours ago, oldgeez said:

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

 

Too early to predict. From what Ive heard, Viking will continue to do the boatel thing until the end of August and will review the situation towards the end of the month. In recent weeks on average roundabout 50 % of the guests took part of the tour with the other half cancelled.

[arlowood]

19 hours ago, oldgeez said:

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

 

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

Hi there

We were also affected on our Viking cruise. Our dates were 16th til 24th July and we were offered the option to do the coach/boatel tour with a 50% voucher towards a future cruise or take a full refund. We opted for the refund as my wife and I did not relish all the hours of coach shuttle involved to complete the itinerary as advertised.

 

One site I used to monitor water levels was the one linked below

 

https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

If you zoom in on the map to the Elbe, you can hover your mouse arrow over the yellow dots along the river which represent locations where the level is measured regularly. In terms of the ability to cruise, I think one critical area is just upstream of Wittenberg at Elster and Pretzsch-Mauken where I understand there are some tight bends in the river. The gauge levels at these points have been consistently low over the past couple of months.

 

In my opinion, I think Viking needs to reconsider there Elbe cruising programme in the summer months. These low water levels have caused disruption several times in recent years

[G.M.T.]

19 hours ago, oldgeez said:

Any updates on the Elbe water depth?

Can anyone point me to a site (or sites) where I can monitor this info?

 

We're scheduled to board the Viking Astrild on 6 September. Hoping that we don't have to make the choice between cancelling or staying in a "boatel". 

There is a smart phone app called "Meine Pegel" (only available in German & Dutch) where you can set up a favourites list and see you cruise route at a glance instead of wading through lots of webpages to get at the requied information.

 

 

[oldgeez]

7 hours ago, arlowood said:

 

 

One site I used to monitor water levels was the one linked below

 

https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

 

Thanks.  This is a very useful site.

 

It tells me that unless we have 40 days and 40 nights of rain over the next 2 weeks, my ship won't be leaving the dock.